Tournament Dumping???

Cary

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Nov 18, 2010
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It is simply my opinion that LeBron couldn't have ended up in the finals on-the-square. That's all.

P.S. Did you notice who LeBron beat to win the 1988 U.S. Open? One of the guys involved in this dump, that's who. I don't believe anything I see in a poolroom or tournament and the only games I ever knew were on the level were the ones I was playing.

Dennis
Yep, LeBron never beat anybody. From Wiki:

Titles and achievements
 

Jimmy B

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Aug 17, 2007
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It's been a few months since I looked it up (May/Jume 1991 Snap Magazine), but as I recall LeBron went hill/hill against Hall in the finals of the $35,000 1991 Williard International 9-ball Classic (there were w-a-a-ay more than 8 players in that one) shortly before the Challenge of Champions. Whoever set the line on him at 20-1 was......well, probably not thinking clearly and/or was in on conspiracy.
You bet. He was one hell of a player. He worked for twenty years in that factory before playing full time pro pool. I got tapes of him beating Archer in Glass Open Toledo. He was a run out machine and could beat anybody. I just wish they could have beat the casino out of a lot more money than they did, if they did.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I don’t mean to offend anyone on this board. Pool and billiards in the U.S. have always been perceived as a “dirty” business. The media does not consider it a serious sport and never will. Unless things change, national advertisers outside the pool industry just see no value in supporting it. Once in a while ESPN will feature a couple hours of pool when nothing else is happening. 99% of the sponsors are pool related businesses. Awhile back there was some talk about a billiard channel and that never happened. Movies were made about pool. Books were written, most of which depict a dark and depressing picture. We love the game and we are addicted to it. But the stigma has been there. It is always there. It is what it is no matter how we sugar coat it. But it does not have to be this way. Snooker is big business in England. Why not pool?

I am sure nobody here was surprised to hear about what happened in Vegas. It has happened more often than we like to admit. It happens in big and small tournaments, in small and big money matches, pros and amateurs alike. Earl didn’t want to have anything to do with the Vegas deal and that was a good thing. I’d like to know, however, what really happened in Hong Kong when he played Efren a race to 120 for 100K winner takes all. Very late in the match they took a 30 minutes break with Earl ahead 17 games. He played flawlessly for 2 and a half days up to that point. It was the best 9 ball pool that I have ever seen. What happened after the break gave it away. Watch the last few games: Earl scratched 3 times, let the cue ball fly off the table, missed several easy shots, played fast and recklessly and ended up loosing 117 to 120. Efren scratched 3 times, took a long difficult combo shot instead of playing an easy safety and miscued on an easy 8 ball. I have never seen him miscue before, not Efren, especially when 100 grand is on the table. Efren came back to tie the score at 111 each. What happened next could not be more conspicuous. Efren misses an easy carom on the 9 ball leaving it a couple of inches from the pocket. With the cue ball less than 2 feet away, Earl sinks the 9 ball in sending the white ball dangerously towards the side pocket, missing it by a hair. They kept the game close with Efren staying ahead by 1 or 2 games then they tied again at 117 each. Earl scratched again during the next game and Efren missed an easy ball in hand. 100K winner takes all, 2 games left in the match and the great Efren Reyes misses a ball in hand. I was always curious about how much money was in the hat from side betting. The match is on you tube, and I have all 13 tapes. You draw your own conclusion.

I wonder why they were never invited back.
Del,

Very well-written post and your feelings are sincere. I think pool will never again be what it was in the 20's through 50's. There are simply too many other entertainment options for people with the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NASCAR, soccer, and many other sports to watch and play. I'm no authority on Snooker but I think it's more of a national pastime in England. When you grow up with a sport I think it stays with you. I've been in bars in Canada that had 9ft. Snooker tables in them. That's a strong influence.

I also think that if you had a million dollars and put it up for a pool tournament prize fund, the players would whack-up the first 8 places at the least. A percentage of something is always better to them than a chance of coming out empty. You'll never be able to watch a pool tournament and believe what you're seeing is on the level. Sad but true.

That 9-Ball match with Efren/Earl is still available at AccuStats. I don't watch or care too much about 9-Ball but I may order the 13th DVD in the set just to see what you describe.http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/store.cgi?CMD=009&DEPT=1013634625&CAT=1211923047&BACK=A0007A1B01013634625B1

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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I'll add a couple more thoughts... I came up with the conclusion that the Challenge of Champions match with Buddy was a dump completely independent of ever hearing a word about a dump. I think that is, at least for me, pretty damning "evidence" that it was. Interestingly, that is when I started playing pool (91), and I saw Buddy playing Davenport on TV and immediately threw a VHS in the recorder. I got as many more of the matches as I could, and watched them constantly for months (until I found accu-stats). I had no idea it was a dump until years later when I popped the tapes back in just for nostalgia (and the fact that I used to watch an absurd amount of pool). After I had acquired about 5 years of knowledge about pool players and how to play, it was obviously a dump to me. Again, conclusion reached independent of any accusation.

I don't think anything funny happened in the Hong Kong match. I have been in enough "big" (not that big of course) matches myself, and I just know things happen when you are concentrating 100% after a couple hours. It didn't look at all unnatural to me. Earl's meltdown was just that; I mean he went on full tilt because he felt like the world was against him being in Asia. Again, it played out naturally to me. IF there was something happening it would have looked "better" than that in my opinion. I really feel good players, and good players alone, can spot dumping, and that just wasn't one. But of course I could be wrong, no arguing that. I have probably watched scores of matches I thought were legit, that were not. But that is my take on Hong Kong, and I really think it is some of the best pool I have seen too; entertaining and well played.
 

Pelican

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May 25, 2004
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Ducky,

Before you go insulting the man any further let me tell you something; R.H. Gilmer was a roomowner in Miss. and he was a well-respected man in the world of pool from everything I've read about him. He was not "obscure" nor was he "obsessed" with a dumping scandal. If you read the link I furnished you'll see that he started the thread to discuss his feelings on "splits, takedowns & savers" being wrong and only mentioned the "dump" when someone asked him about it. It was not his primary reason for the thread.http://southernbilliards.yuku.com/topic/1834/Splits-takedowns-savers-etc-are-wrong

Mr. Gilmer (Professor) was a man of character and strong feelings about right & wrong. He passed away almost 9 months ago as was noted by Pelican.
http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6526

Feel free to insult me all you want but please leave him out of it.

Dennis
You are absolutely right Dennis. RH was a man of true character. If he told you it was going to rain golf balls don't leave home without a hardhat. Two people I would have trusted with everything I own - RH Gilmer and Grady Mathews; well, maybe not my wife with Grady ;) :lol

Later, Pel
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I, like everyone else, would really like to see these tapes.

Paul "The Rest of the Story" McDuck"
Dear Mr. Harvey McDuck,

For the low, low price of just $4200 plus $89.34 S&H you can view the matches in the privacy of your cardboard box under the freeway overpass. You do get electric there right??? You can tap into a street light right? I ordered the DVD of the match from the guy who was selling it and it should be here on Monday or Tuesday. When I'm done viewing it I will send it to your overpass. Which one was it again?:p:lol

Cowboy "Will Know The Rest Of The Story" Dennis
 

beatle

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Jun 21, 2009
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sure, all the time in lots of sports the ending players split the prize fund and one goes on to win. sometimes they each take out a saver and play for the rest. that is tournament play. it isnt dumping. but it isnt in the spirit of the tournament.

but when they also allow betting on the matches the fools who put up the lines are going to get hammered (dumped). it just makes cheating so much more profitable and dealing with people that have little money it makes sense that they will do what it takes to get as much as they can.

when the stardust had its famous tournaments most and i mean most matches where a player didnt think he really had a chance would do business because there were lines made on every match.

if a tournament wants it to be strictly on the square as far as the money goes, all they can do is only pay out in checks to the players in order of finish and mail the money to them with a 1099. this way it makes it much harder for players to cheat as then they also have to trust each other.
 
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