The simple simple truth

[Miller]

"Small regional" event! :lol They use RR format for 120 players at the, Verhoeven Open in US for over 10 years! 20 flights of 6 players pre-lims over 10 tables. I will admit, this event is a 7 day tournament.

Math doesn't lie! A RR format for 32,36,40 or 48 players is far less time consuming than True Dbl -elimination! I'm feeling some don't really understand the concept of, never having a table open or waiting on other players matches to end with the RR!

The tone of your post implies that I’m opposed to a RR or don’t understand it – I’m not and I do. Just don’t see it ever getting off the ground for a large event - such as the annual MOT.

So, I’ll bite Billy …..and illustrate what I believe are the issues with it.

Let’s assume you have a 32 man event with 16 tables.

You assign players to four separate 8 man groups.

That’s 28 total matches per each group with 4 tables at their disposal.

On average and in a perfect world, that would be 7 matches per table – but its not a perfect world, some matches will be short, some matches will be long, etc.

Withstanding the scheduling, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that (all four groups simultaneously).

The second day of the tourney would involve placing the top 4 players from each group into a 16 man single elimination tourney. (You could even get creative and have a loser’s tourney.) What do you do for ties within each group? That would involve some kind of data collection – i.e. games won perhaps (what if you still have ties?). Once again, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that.

Just don’t see it and believe that’s why it isn’t ever done. I’m all for it on a small scale.

 

[mr3cushion]

The tone of your post implies that I’m opposed to a RR or don’t understand it – I’m not and I do. Just don’t see it ever getting off the ground for a large event - such as the annual MOT.

So, I’ll bite Billy …..and illustrate what I believe are the issues with it.

Let’s assume you have a 32 man event with 16 tables.

You assign players to four separate 8 man groups.

That’s 28 total matches per each group with 4 tables at their disposal.

On average and in a perfect world, that would be 7 matches per table – but its not a perfect world, some matches will be short, some matches will be long, etc.

Withstanding the scheduling, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that (all four groups simultaneously).

The second day of the tourney would involve placing the top 4 players from each group into a 16 man single elimination tourney. (You could even get creative and have a loser’s tourney.) What do you do for ties within each group? That would involve some kind of data collection – i.e. games won perhaps (what if you still have ties?). Once again, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that.

Just don’t see it and believe that’s why it isn’t ever done. I’m all for it on a small scale.

I NEVER EVER mentioned any of the above in RED! :frus:frus

That's YOUR theory on a 32 player field, NOT mine!

Did you think you were being tricky, with the, '16 table thing!' :lol:lol

 

[Miller]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

The simple truth is that you can convey the simple truth, but apparently the truth isn’t so simple for some – maybe they’re just simple….

Incorporate the four points illustrated in post #1 and its simple.

Carry on……:frus



(Regarding RR – that’s a whole other animal and discussion. And let’s be simply truthful – it won’t ever fly for the annual members tourney. It’s perfect for a small regional event and anyone who is willing should simply step up and “make it happen.” Cory has everything put together and ready to go.)

"Small regional" event! :lol They use RR format for 120 players at the, Verhoeven Open in US for over 10 years! 20 flights of 6 players pre-lims over 10 tables. I will admit, this event is a 7 day tournament.

Math doesn't lie! A RR format for 32,36,40 or 48 players is far less time consuming than True Dbl -elimination! I'm feeling some don't really understand the concept of, never having a table open or waiting on other players matches to end with the RR!

The tone of your post implies that I’m opposed to a RR or don’t understand it – I’m not and I do. Just don’t see it ever getting off the ground for a large event - such as the annual MOT.

So, I’ll bite Billy …..and illustrate what I believe are the issues with it.

Let’s assume you have a 32 man event with 16 tables.

You assign players to four separate 8 man groups.

That’s 28 total matches per each group with 4 tables at their disposal.

On average and in a perfect world, that would be 7 matches per table – but its not a perfect world, some matches will be short, some matches will be long, etc.

Withstanding the scheduling, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that (all four groups simultaneously).

The second day of the tourney would involve placing the top 4 players from each group into a 16 man single elimination tourney. (You could even get creative and have a loser’s tourney.) What do you do for ties within each group? That would involve some kind of data collection – i.e. games won perhaps (what if you still have ties?). Once again, you’d need a dedicated somebody with their shit tight to manage all of that.

Just don’t see it and believe that’s why it isn’t ever done. I’m all for it on a small scale.

I NEVER EVER mentioned any of the above in RED! :frus:frus

That's YOUR theory on a 32 player field, NOT mine!

Did you think you were being tricky, with the, '16 table thing!' :lol:lol

BILLY......how about some enlightened details on how a 32 man RR would work? (use as many tables as you like if 16 isn't the minimum benchmark - maybe that room exists in fantasyland....lol)

How's it done?

 

[mr3cushion]

BILLY......how about some enlightened details on how a 32 man RR would work? (use as many tables as you like if 16 isn't the minimum benchmark - maybe that room exists in fantasyland....lol)

How's it done?

This couldn't be any simpler!

Here's the time frame for a 32 man field round robin with flights.

Example: 32 players, 8 flights of 4, the TOP 2 players from each flight, (16) advance to a 4 flights of 4 players, 'semi-final!' The TOP player or 2 in each flight, (4 or 8) advance to a, 'single-elimination' Finals!

With a room that has 8 tables, and the field is 32 players, 1 match from each flight can be going on simultaneously, (half the field)! Lets say, each match will take approximately 150 minutes./2.5 hrs. In Each flight there will be 6 matches x 8 flights = 48 matches /8 tables = 6 rounds x 150 minutes = 900 minutes/60 = 15 hrs. to play pre-lims! 7.5 hr semi-finals. Finals another 5 or 7.5 hrs. There's ALWAYS a match being played on ALL 8 tables!

With this format, the, 'Dead Money' players get to play at least 3 matches instead of 2, GUARANTEED!

Capisce?

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Carry on……:frus


I tapped, your turn...lol

 

[Miller]

This couldn't be any simpler!

Here's the time frame for a 32 man field round robin with flights.

Example: 32 players, 8 flights of 4, the TOP 2 players from each flight, (16) advance to a 4 flights of 4 players, 'semi-final!' The TOP player or 2 in each flight, (4 or 8) advance to a, 'single-elimination' Finals!

With a room that has 8 tables, and the field is 32 players, 1 match from each flight can be going on simultaneously, (half the field)! Lets say, each match will take approximately 150 minutes./2.5 hrs. In Each flight there will be 6 matches x 8 flights = 48 matches /8 tables = 6 rounds x 150 minutes = 900 minutes/60 = 15 hrs. to play pre-lims! 7.5 hr semi-finals. Finals another 5 or 7.5 hrs. There's ALWAYS a match being played on ALL 8 tables!

With this format, the, 'Dead Money' players get to play at least 3 matches instead of 2, GUARANTEED!

Capisce?

ok. flights/groups of 4 instead of 8.

Si, Capisco

 

[Miller]

Carry on……:frus


I tapped, your turn...lol

because this way a guy gets to play 3 matches in 15 hours.....

tapping out also.....

 

[mr3cushion]

ok. flights/groups of 4 instead of 8.

Si, Capisco

Perfecto finalmente!

 

[darmoose]

BILLY......how about some enlightened details on how a 32 man RR would work? (use as many tables as you like if 16 isn't the minimum benchmark - maybe that room exists in fantasyland....lol)

How's it done?

There are several assumptions being made that aren't necessarily correct. Let me give it a try, although we have been over this before. I notice in these recent comments and discussions that it appears that people are talking about "matches" during the RR. That is not what I am talking about. I am suggesting that during the RR you are simply playing a certain number of games with each other player in your group. The number of games played with each opponent is decided by how many games we think we can fit into the time frame. I am suggesting 3 games with each opponent in your group of 8. The qualifiers will be determined by their overall RR record, plus any tie breakers we need to apply.

32 players divided into 4 groups of 8. We have 16 tables at our disposal. Every player will play 3 games with each other player in his group. That's 21 games that each player will play in the RR portion of the tournament which will last for two days. All 8 players will be playing at the same time on their groups 4 tables. Each player will play 9 games on Friday and 12 games on Saturday. It is up to each group to finish their group play by the end of Saturday if they are to place a qualifier in the final elimination rounds to be held on Sunday. Any group that does not finish their RR play does not put a qualifier in the final elimination rounds. You can play as late as necessary on Fri and Sat to get done.

Now we have to decide if we want 4 finalists (one from each group) in the Sunday matches or 8 finalists (two from each group) in the Sunday matches. We also need to decide if Sunday is going to be a single or double elimination. I think you could easily do a double elimination with 4 players, or a single elimination with 8 players on Sunday.

What could possibly go wrong? This could easily be a perfect format for our MOT.

I don't know how this could be any simpler or more manageable.

P.S. If you think that 21 games per player is too much, you simply reduce the games played with each opponent from 3 to 2, which would simply lower the number of games garanteed from 21 to 14.

 

[mr3cushion]

IT's NOW TOTALLY clear to me, that those that have replied and give their theory on a Round Robin format DO NOT understand it! :sorry :frus:frus:frus

Expect Millie!

 

[mr3cushion]

because this way a guy gets to play 3 matches in 15 hours.....

tapping out also.....

NOT true! The most any player in any flight would sit out is 2 rounds! With Seniors, it sounds perfect to me, NOT to have to be in the PR all day, if they don't want to!

EVERY round 2 players from EVERY flight will be playing on ALL 8 tables!

Round #1: Player 1 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #2: Player 2 v Player 3 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #3: Player 1 v player 3 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #4: player 2 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #5: player 1 v player 2 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #6: player 3 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
************Pre-lims TOTAL = 15.0 hrs.
This occurs in EVERY flight!

Miller, You've got the concept now, just not the idea of the scheduling!

 

[darmoose]

IT's NOW TOTALLY clear to me, that those that have replied and give their theory on a Round Robin format DO NOT understand it! :sorry :frus:frus:frus

Expect Millie!

3c,

On the extremely remote chance that you are referring to me and my post I put up a few minutes prior to to your above, please make clear what you think is wrong with my version.

On the much more likely chance that you couldn't possibly be referring to my post, I would appreciate your making that crystal clear for my fans.

 

[Miller]

NOT true! The most any player in any flight would sit out is 2 rounds! With Seniors, it sounds perfect to me, NOT to have to be in the PR all day, if they don't want to!

EVERY round 2 players from EVERY flight will be playing on ALL 8 tables!

Round #1: Player 1 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #2: Player 2 v Player 3 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #3: Player 1 v player 3 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #4: player 2 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #5: player 1 v player 2 = 2.5 hrs.
Round #6: player 3 v player 4 = 2.5 hrs.
************Pre-lims TOTAL = 15.0 hrs.
This occurs in EVERY flight!

Miller, You've got the concept now, just not the idea of the scheduling!

bill....as much as it PAINS me to say so.....you're right. assuming a RR is on the table/viable, like flights of 4 much better than flights of 8. skeptical about 8 tables, but with 16 very doable.

i guess the semantics what you do with flight winner(s) - continued RR or traditional format are subjective.....

thank you for sharing.


(don't know WTF darrel is talking about.....)

 

[mr3cushion]

bill....as much as it PAINS me to say so.....you're right. assuming a RR is on the table/viable, like flights of 4 much better than flights of 8. skeptical about 8 tables, but with 16 very doable.

i guess the semantics what you do with flight winner(s) - continued RR or traditional format are subjective.....

thank you for sharing.


(don't know WTF darrel is talking about.....)

Miller; even with Senior players. "Do you think most matches will go 2.5 hrs?"

I don't see how you think 8 tables aren't enough at one time!

The WTF thing, I can't imagine what's on his mind!

 

[Cory in dc]

This is my opinion on the RR. That is a lot of games to be played in two days so you can finish in a regular type bracket anyway. To my knowledge it has never been done in a recent 32 player one pocket event so we have no idea how match time would affect the outcomes of each group playing that many games in two days. It's also a huge scheduling nightmare for whomever is going to try to schedule all the matches or a the players who have never done it. On top of that none of us playing in the tournament have experience in both playing or running a 32 player RR format. And lastly what happens if we get 75% of the matches in and it becomes obvious that we won't have time to finish the rest? Are you personally guaranteeing this will work and as the advocate here are you volunteering to be there to help make all this happen?
...lol

I do guarantee it, for three reasons. First, RR uses more tables for longer so it gets through ANY given number of total matches faster. Second, it would feed into single elim brackets. It's possible that *more* people would be playing Sunday pm, but it would all wrap up earlier because the hot seat player would not be waiting around for the other matches to finish. Third, you can pick the number of matches people play. We can have 4 flights of 8, but we cannot have each person playing 7 other people. It has to be random draw against 4 or 5.

Double elim: Lowest number of games is either 6 (if 3/3) or 5 (if 3/2). Minimum number of people played is 2.

RR: 4 flights of 8, with 5 matches per player. Each match is 2 games (not a race to 2, just 2 games with a score of 2-0, 1-1, or 0-2), one break each. Completely break-neutral. Minimum (and maximum) of 10 games, and 5 opponents. That's 160 games on 16 tables, or 10 games per table--should be able to finish by Saturday afternoon and then get through at least 1 round in each subsequent single-elim bracket. Note that nearly all tables are in continuous use until the end of the first single-elim brackets. (In practice, it won't be quite that smooth because the RR brackets slow down at then end when A still has to play B but B is playing D, etc.). We just have to specify the order of tie-breaks in advance.

We would have some discretion after the RR phase:

• Top 16 go into a seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Bottom 16 go into a seeded Low bracket and play race to 2 single elim.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim; Bottom 8 are out, 16 go into seeded Low bracket and play race race to 3.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Next 8 go into Low bracket with a Bye; the final 16 go into the Low bracket without a bye. Single elim race to 3 (or maybe 2, I'd have to trace it out).

To make it happen, I just need to build it in Excel and have someone closely debug it and have a few people vet the flow chart.

 

[darmoose]

bill....as much as it PAINS me to say so.....you're right. assuming a RR is on the table/viable, like flights of 4 much better than flights of 8. skeptical about 8 tables, but with 16 very doable.

i guess the semantics what you do with flight winner(s) - continued RR or traditional format are subjective.....

thank you for sharing.


(don't know WTF darrel is talking about.....)

Miller

That's funny as hell, cause I can't figure what the hell you and 3c are doing,:lol:lol

Seems like you guys have made this FUBAR, although I am getting into to it late. This has all been hashed out many times before, and the RR format I am describing is exactly the format used and designed by Cory for the first annual Beast In The East tournament in 2017. I have simply added an elimination final on Sunday. It ain't that complicated.

Thank you very much.

 

[mr3cushion]

I do guarantee it, for three reasons. First, RR uses more tables for longer so it gets through ANY given number of total matches faster. Second, it would feed into single elim brackets. It's possible that *more* people would be playing Sunday pm, but it would all wrap up earlier because the hot seat player would not be waiting around for the other matches to finish. Third, you can pick the number of matches people play. We can have 4 flights of 8, but we cannot have each person playing 7 other people. It has to be random draw against 4 or 5.

Double elim: Lowest number of games is either 6 (if 3/3) or 5 (if 3/2). Minimum number of people played is 2.

RR: 4 flights of 8, with 5 matches per player. Each match is 2 games (not a race to 2, just 2 games with a score of 2-0, 1-1, or 0-2), one break each. Completely break-neutral. Minimum (and maximum) of 10 games, and 5 opponents. That's 160 games on 16 tables, or 10 games per table--should be able to finish by Saturday afternoon and then get through at least 1 round in each subsequent single-elim bracket. Note that nearly all tables are in continuous use until the end of the first single-elim brackets. (In practice, it won't be quite that smooth because the RR brackets slow down at then end when A still has to play B but B is playing D, etc.). We just have to specify the order of tie-breaks in advance.

We would have some discretion after the RR phase:

• Top 16 go into a seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Bottom 16 go into a seeded Low bracket and play race to 2 single elim.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim; Bottom 8 are out, 16 go into seeded Low bracket and play race race to 3.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Next 8 go into Low bracket with a Bye; the final 16 go into the Low bracket without a bye. Single elim race to 3 (or maybe 2, I'd have to trace it out).

To make it happen, I just need to build it in Excel and have someone closely debug it and have a few people vet the flow chart.

I gave the CORRECT format! IMHO,from over 50 years of experience playing in RR formats! Doesn't matter the game, just as long as you have an aprox., 'Per match time frame!' NOT the one you purpose! I already posted the site: https://compusport.us/ You give them the number of players, the format, time frame, and they will work up the brackets & scheduling for $1.00 per player!

How could it be ANY cheaper!

 

[darmoose]

I do guarantee it, for three reasons. First, RR uses more tables for longer so it gets through ANY given number of total matches faster. Second, it would feed into single elim brackets. It's possible that *more* people would be playing Sunday pm, but it would all wrap up earlier because the hot seat player would not be waiting around for the other matches to finish. Third, you can pick the number of matches people play. We can have 4 flights of 8, but we cannot have each person playing 7 other people. It has to be random draw against 4 or 5.

Double elim: Lowest number of games is either 6 (if 3/3) or 5 (if 3/2). Minimum number of people played is 2.

RR: 4 flights of 8, with 5 matches per player. Each match is 2 games (not a race to 2, just 2 games with a score of 2-0, 1-1, or 0-2), one break each. Completely break-neutral. Minimum (and maximum) of 10 games, and 5 opponents. That's 160 games on 16 tables, or 10 games per table--should be able to finish by Saturday afternoon and then get through at least 1 round in each subsequent single-elim bracket. Note that nearly all tables are in continuous use until the end of the first single-elim brackets. (In practice, it won't be quite that smooth because the RR brackets slow down at then end when A still has to play B but B is playing D, etc.). We just have to specify the order of tie-breaks in advance.

We would have some discretion after the RR phase:

• Top 16 go into a seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Bottom 16 go into a seeded Low bracket and play race to 2 single elim.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim; Bottom 8 are out, 16 go into seeded Low bracket and play race race to 3.
• Top 8 go into seeded High bracket and play race to 3 single elim. Next 8 go into Low bracket with a Bye; the final 16 go into the Low bracket without a bye. Single elim race to 3 (or maybe 2, I'd have to trace it out).

To make it happen, I just need to build it in Excel and have someone closely debug it and have a few people vet the flow chart.

Cory,

Why are you complicating this so, or letting others drag you into this mess. Why wouldn't you use the same RR format we used in Philly, playing a certain number of games against each other player in your group. Then determine a finalist from each group to play in the elimination rounds on Sunday (the same as Mitch and I played in the final in Philly) That is so simple and it is self managed by each group. These guys don't understand.

I know you advocated exactly what I am describing in earlier threads on this subject.

 

[mr3cushion]

I guess I can't explain it, simple enough for a few! WTF!

SEE post #71!

 

[darmoose]

Consider the source! NO ONE in the world would run a 1 pocket event with 32 players and 4 flights of 8 in 3 days! It's utterly ridiculous!!!! And he says 14 games each! How do you get to play 14 game with ONLY 8 players in a bracket? In RR format you don't play each other twice!Just once, that's why it's RR format! :frus:frus It'

Here's an example of a ridiculously stupid question from one that don't get it.

I can answer this for you 3c. You play two games with each other player in your bracket (group). 2x7=14:lol:lol