The simple simple truth

gulfportdoc

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This for our annual members tournament that starts on Friday. The Seniors starts on Thursday and should start Thursday early afternoon as it's on 8 tables.
That's the simple solution. And I hope they decide to start the next Bogie's Senior event on Thursday evening. I took off 3 day's work thinking they would be starting on Thursday after the draw. Most of the Seniors are retired, so time is not a premier consideration. Everyone was there (except for Steve), and could have played a match or 2 on Thursday.

For other events, as a solution for ultra long play, the TD ought to be permitted to shorten either the race or the ball count. As an example, if a match is tied 1-1 after two hours, then the TD could have their race shortened to 2. Another example would be to shorten their ball counts to 5 or 6 rather than to 8. Some variation of this suggestion could be tailored to any given ultra slow situation.

At one of my 1P tournaments we had a match between two ladies that was painfully slow. After their 1-1 tie, I told them they would play only one more game for the tie breaker, and they would race to 5 balls. They finished in a timely manner.

Shortening the races or ball counts would not affect the integrity of the game, and could be a good solution for an occasional super slow situation in tournament play. Obviously the potential use of this fix ought to be announced at the players' meeting.

~Doc
 

mr3cushion

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How are the RR games run in Billiards. I have no clue. Is there allotted time periods per game or do they play to a certain score so the game times vary ?
It's very simple! The games are a certain # of points in RR (brackets) pre-lims. A certain time is allowed, (only for scheduling)! Lets say, 32 players, the room has 4 tables, 4 flights of 8 players. The TOP 3 players, W/L advance to a 12 player, semi-finals, 4 flights of 3 players, the TOP player in each group advances to a 4 man single-elimination Final!

Depending on the level of players, it will determine the time allowed for each game, with B players, 1 hr. for 20 point pre-lims. With 25 point semi-finals, 1.25 hrs. and 30 point Finals 1.5 hrs.

The MOST important factor in RR format is the number of tables available, so matches can continually flow, without empty tables waiting for other players to finish! This IS the problem dbl-elimination. With RR you create the # of flights around the # of tables and then the # of players in each flight!
 
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El Chapo

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I think it is worth noting that this topic comes up quite a bit. That alone proves to some extent, that the game is at least a little bit too slow in general. That is the conclusion I come to anyway.

The LA Open, I forget the year maybe 92 or so, had Mark Tadd and Steve Cook in the finals. The pockets were, as far as I can recall from the videos, monstrosities. They were very large, almost humongus. I wonder if this was by design or a complete coincidence? And notice, the two guys who were playing some of the best one hole at the time made the finals. I personally thought the event was very exciting.

I am very happy to say I do not really understand the dislike for large pockets for one pocket. I totally understand players have their gambling preferences and everything, but I do not see large pockets detracting from the game at all. People think large pockets detract because it is somehow not as pure or something, but I do not see it much different as different courses in golf or different surfaces in tennis. Some players will be favored over others under the changing conditions, but that is about it, so I just simply do not see the issue with large pockets for one pocket events I suppose. Guys will be doing things like firing banks at their hole more when they are dead trapped, I find it very very hard to argue that is not good for the game. You may not like it, but is it good for the game's watchability is the question.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Doc, you made some very good points, I am with you in these suggestions! For me, establishing a format for matches that are playing over schedule is very fair, for all players are playing by the same rules. thanks!
 

youngstownkid

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The simple simple truth

It’s not true we need to go to 3/2. I have stated why and unlike you guys who keep beating a dead dog. I’m not going too.

Steve, work out the scheduling with two rounds Thursday night after the auction at 6pm.

We end up with four players last day.

I’m dead money, if I get to play two matches I’m lucky and you want to reduce the amount of games I get to play?

Who else is dead money that is pushing for fewer games?
Just curious...would you feel better about it if just the first round of the losers bracket was race to three?




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crabbcatjohn

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The above thoughts are for a, 'Dead Money player' looking for a lot of bang for their buck, which may include LUCK going to 2! :D
That's the simple solution. And I hope they decide to start the next Bogie's Senior event on Thursday evening. I took off 3 day's work thinking they would be starting on Thursday after the draw. Most of the Seniors are retired, so time is not a premier consideration. Everyone was there (except for Steve), and could have played a match or 2 on Thursday.

For other events, as a solution for ultra long play, the TD ought to be permitted to shorten either the race or the ball count. As an example, if a match is tied 1-1 after two hours, then the TD could have their race shortened to 2. Another example would be to shorten their ball counts to 5 or 6 rather than to 8. Some variation of this suggestion could be tailored to any given ultra slow situation.

At one of my 1P tournaments we had a match between two ladies that was painfully slow. After their 1-1 tie, I told them they would play only one more game for the tie breaker, and they would race to 5 balls. They finished in a timely manner.

Shortening the races or ball counts would not affect the integrity of the game, and could be a good solution for an occasional super slow situation in tournament play. Obviously the potential use of this fix ought to be announced at the players' meeting.

~Doc
They used the same type format at Freezers for the West Coast swing event where they added a game.
 

crabbcatjohn

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It's very simple! The games are a certain # of points in RR (brackets) pre-lims. A certain time is allowed, (only for scheduling)! Lets say, 32 players, the room has 4 tables, 4 flights of 8 players. The TOP 3 players, W/L advance to a 12 player, semi-finals, 4 flights of 3 players, the TOP player in each group advances to a 4 man single-elimination Final!

Depending on the level of players, it will determine the time allowed for each game, with B players, 1 hr. for 20 point pre-lims. With 25 point semi-finals, 1.25 hrs. and 30 point Finals 1.5 hrs.

The MOST important factor in RR format is the number of tables available, so matches can continually flow, without empty tables waiting for other players to finish! This IS the problem dbl-elimination. With RR you create the # of flights around the # of tables and then the # of players in each flight!
So how would any of this translate into a one pocket tournament with uncertain start/ finish times and a blind draw. Would we need to seed and put time limits on games to be assured of a finish time at the end of two days? With 14 games each we are talking about 224 games in two days
 

mr3cushion

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So how would any of this translate into a one pocket tournament with uncertain start/ finish times and a blind draw. Would we need to seed and put time limits on games to be assured of a finish time at the end of two days? With 14 games each we are talking about 224 games in two days
With all do respect, how did you come up with each player playing 14 games, I forgot, also 224 games in 2 days? :confused: When if you have 32 players, 8 flights of 4 players in the pre-lims, that's 3 matches ONLY played by EVERY player in the field in the pre-lims! 15 hrs for pre-lims.

Once again, if you take the TOP 2 in each of the 8 pre-lim flights, we have 16 going into the, semi-finals. Which would consist of 4 flights of 4 (ALL the players in the semi's at one time) playing on 8 tables! 7.5 hours for semi-finals. The top player in each of those 4 flights will go to 4 man, single-elimination Finals! 5 hrs. for finals, including 3 & 4 playing for those positions.

Allowing approximately, 2.5 hrs per match
 
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crabbcatjohn

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With all do respect, how did you come up with each player playing 14 games, I forgot, also 224 games in 2 days? :confused: When if you have 32 players, 8 flights of 4 players in the pre-lims, that's 3 matches ONLY played by EVERY player in the field in the pre-lims! 15 hrs for pre-lims.

Once again, if you take the TOP 2 in each of the 8 pre-lim flights, we have 16 going into the, semi-finals. Which would consist of 4 flights of 4 (ALL the players in the semi's at one time) playing on 8 tables! 7.5 hours for semi-finals. The top player in each of those 4 flights will go to 4 man, single-elimination Finals! 5 hrs. for finals, including 3 & 4 playing for those positions.

Allowing approximately, 2.5 hrs per match
Just following lsjohns post saying we would be guaranteed 14 games each if we played 4-8 player groups playing ea player in the group a race to two. It would actually be more like 250 games but who's counting....lol I didnt realize there were 3 or 4 different plans for the RR. I know now..lol. maybe the RR guys should all get together and come up with a single format then propose that so it's not as confusing...
 
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LSJohn

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So how would any of this translate into a one pocket tournament with uncertain start/ finish times and a blind draw. Would we need to seed and put time limits on games to be assured of a finish time at the end of two days? With 14 games each we are talking about 224 games in two days
224 games @ 30 minutes average = 6720 minutes --> 8 tables = 840 minutes per table = 14 hours playing time per table ---> add 25% for various forms of delay ---> 17 1/2 hr per table.
 

mr3cushion

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Just following lsjohns post saying we would be guaranteed 14 games each if we played 4-8 player groups playing ea player in the group a race to two. It would actually be more like 250 games but who's counting....lol I didnt realize there were 3 or 4 different plans for the RR. I know now..lol. maybe the RR guys should all get together and come up with a single format then propose that so it's not as confusing...
Consider the source! NO ONE in the world would run a 1 pocket event with 32 players and 4 flights of 8 in 3 days! It's utterly ridiculous!!!! And he says 14 games each! How do you get to play 14 game with ONLY 8 players in a bracket? In RR format you don't play each other twice!Just once, that's why it's RR format! :frus:frus It'
 
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crabbcatjohn

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Consider the source! NO ONE in the world would run a 1 pocket event with 32 players and 4 flights of 8! It's utterly ridiculous!!!! And he says 14 games each! How do you get to play 14 game with ONLY 8 players in a bracket? In RR format you don't play each other twice!Just once, that's why it's RR format! :frus:frus It'
I think I'll just leave this discussion to you guys. Thanks for the input.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Crabbcatjohn,
RR, are you thinking for possible use in your tournament, when you state to mr3cushion;"RR in two days"?

I believe you had what, 23 players or so, and did a bank pool tourney on Friday, "very nice", and all day play OP on Sat. and Sun. with player's rounds finished respectfully on each day and had no player dissatisfied. Hard to change that format.

With a safe guard in place for matches running behind schedule you may pull it off with a small player field in two days, depending on how many tables you had to work with. RR does take time and I believe it would hard to match your results given the same factors to work with, within two days. A 16 player entry may work?

Here is for 32 players 1st. rd. 4 groups of 8 players playing each other player 2 games for 7rds. = 14 games total for each player.
Based on 45min.-1hr/game = 10-1/2 hrs.-14hrs. of playing time. Take the top 4 from each group (16) to advance. Keep in mind that is with 16 tables at the MOT. But it does give you a time factor for 45 min. - 1hr. / game. Whitey
 
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vapros

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Aw, looky here, John. Your arithmetic made mr. no-pocket laugh. :D
 

Miller

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You can't handle the truth!

You can't handle the truth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

The simple truth is that you can convey the simple truth, but apparently the truth isn’t so simple for some – maybe they’re just simple….:D

Incorporate the four points illustrated in post #1 and its simple.

Carry on……:frus



(Regarding RR – that’s a whole other animal and discussion. And let’s be simply truthful – it won’t ever fly for the annual members tourney. It’s perfect for a small regional event and anyone who is willing should simply step up and “make it happen.” Cory has everything put together and ready to go.)
 
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mr3cushion

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

The simple truth is that you can convey the simple truth, but apparently the truth isn’t so simple for some – maybe they’re just simple….:D

Incorporate the four points illustrated in post #1 and its simple.

Carry on……:frus



(Regarding RR – that’s a whole other animal and discussion. And let’s be simply truthful – it won’t ever fly for the annual members tourney. It’s perfect for a small regional event and anyone who is willing should simply step up and “make it happen.” Cory has everything put together and ready to go.)
"Small regional" event! :lol They use RR format for 120 players at the, Verhoeven Open in US for over 10 years! 20 flights of 6 players pre-lims over 10 tables. I will admit, this event is a 7 day tournament.

Math doesn't lie! A RR format for 32,36,40 or 48 players is far less time consuming than True Dbl -elimination! I'm feeling some don't really understand the concept of, never having a table open or waiting on other players matches to end with the RR!
 
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