The Real Price off a Free Scratch

Artie Bodendorfer

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Cowboy Dennis said:
....yes....
SJD the game you are talking about yes its very close very close.

Like I said 8 to 8 a scratch is worth one ball.

So what you said is correct. Because one ball and one scratch are almost identacale.

But 18 to 4 is way different. If I wae playing a week player 18 to 4. I would be very happy to give him 20 to 4 for a free scratch.

The value of a scratch is way different with a big spopt or a even game.

And one more thing I would like too say that one scratch and all your scratches are like night and day.

You cannot give some one 4 and a half balls forever scratch. LIke 5 scratches are worth 22 and a half balls.

And you would be playing the week player 40 and a half balls to 4. And to get wright to the point the good player might not use any off the scratches.

Then the good player would be spotting him 22 and ahalf balls for nothing. And it works the other way too the week player cant give up one ball for more scratches.

Like 4 more scratches and the week player goes to 8 balls. He might not yous those scratches and he is giving up 4 balls for them. But one scratch before the game starts is worth 4 and a half balls.

And If some one does the math. That is good at figuring percentages. He will come up with the same amswer I have.

Her is what someone can do. Give the peroblem To a proffisor or a percentage expert and he will figure out the correct answer. Percentage wise. This is the only way this can be proven. And what I am saying is correct.

And belive me a percentage expert can do it. Maybe some off ypu can do the math and see what it comes too. But again SJD what you said is correct.
 

SJDinPHX

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stevelomako said:
This is kind of off topic but I'd like your opinion on this Artie.

Efren was always giving Cliff 8-7 and Cliff couldn't win.

I told Cliff we could get him staked for whatever Efrens side wanted to bet.....I told Cliff to ask for 12-10 or 13-11 instead of 8-7.


It never came off at that time but what do you think of that adjustment and who do you think it favors?
Steve,

I know you didn't ask me, but I think the "Odds Couple" (BI and AB) may have nodded off...Not that it really matters, but was this match recent, or some time ago ?

If Cliff couldn't win getting 8/7....I would think he would have even more the worst of a 12/10 or 13/11 match-up. I would really be surprised if Efren didn't jump at it...I've always considered 10/8 and 8/7 fairly close to the same thing, between two good players. (10/8 being maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of a ball better for the weaker player)

The weaker one of the two (Cliff in this case) would be in big trouble escalating his needing 3 or 4 more balls....And Effy only needing two more.
than Cliff...JMHO...(Hope no one considers this a knock)..:eek:
 
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Artie Bodendorfer

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wincardona said:
Let me start out first by saying that Dippie doesn't get all the breaks, the game was 18 to 4 and a free scratch that had to be called before the scratch was taken. I believe that the break whether it be all the time or rotate the break will not change the value of the free scratch. I also believe that you cannot figure mathematically what the free scratch is worth. I'm sorry Artie but the free scratch in terms of how it's designed to give a player an edge is not worth 4 1/2 balls in this situation. I will give you an example.

If Gabe doesn't give Dippie the free scratch your saying that it's worth 4 1/2 balls more for Gabe to pocket opposed to giving the free scrach? So an even game without the free scratch would then be 22 1/2 to 4 I don't think so.:eek:

How about if Gabe gave Dippie 3 free scratches each worth 4 1/2 balls for a total of 13 1/2 balls off the spot of 22 1/2 to 4 which would bring the spot down to 9 to 4. I don't think so.

Well if Gabe gave Dippie 4 free scratches each worth 4 1/2 balls each for a total of 18 balls then he would only have to give Dippie 4 1/2 to 4. I don't think so.

There isn't a mathematical solution to this spot, you must play out the games and keep track of games won in differen't scenarios in order to place a value on the free scratch the way it's designed.

Trust me, i'm a doctor:D

Billy I.
I thought doctores need a liscense? I Wrote what one scratch is worth in balls to DAve. Not more then one that was added.

And I said before the game starts. If you have a mth major who soulves probabilities he will come up with my answer.

Weather you or anyone agrees to what I said. The important thing is not for everyone too disagree.

But too find the correct answer to the problem. Thats whats important. The correct answer will make us wiser.

And its good that people all have different opinions. But what happins to the qouistion that people whant too no the correct answer too.

Keeping track off all the games will not help the spot at the start off the game. Because each game is different.

Each game has different shots. Each game has different amount off scratches or no scratches.

This game they were playing the spot was 18 to 4 and a free scratch. Breack apeace instead I had it with Dave getting all the breacks.

But each game they played and they started had the same spot. And If you ask gab would he give Dave two more balls for one scratch. What do you think he would say.
And If Gab could but Dave in a position were they would keep taking as many scratches as they want. And everyone off Gabs scratches cost him 3 balls and it cost Dave one ball.

And they are playing 10 scratches apeace. Dave would be going too 14 teen balls. And Gab goes too 48 balls. Divide 48 by 10 see what the percentages will be.

From 14 to 8 and 48 to 14. YEs Billy a probability expert can figure out the exact. Percentage off each game. And the percentages off what one scratch is worth at the start off the game.

Thier is a answer and a correct aswer to all problems. With someone that knowes howe to do probabilities. Thier is one hunder percent a Salution to the math on what one scratch is worth ib a game.

One qouistion. If you are getting a free scratch is it worth more on his breack or your breack or is it equale. And WHY.

I hope you had a great birthday. I hope you treated yourself to all your favorit foods. And a great glass off win.

Why because you desirve it and you work hard enough and you earned it. And by the way did DAve wish you a happy birthday.

Or maybe he just forgot. But he has class. And he will wish you happy birthday Tomarrow and many more. And whatever game you play Dave dont let him out bet you.

And dont get rapt up for Christmas. Take care off your back . You only have one. And if they no you are hurting they will all want too play.Dave if you are going too play Billy.

I would do it know before its too late and he is all bent over. And then you will say I widh I would have played him. You two would make a great action game. And everyone would want too no who the winner is.

Thier is no winner tell thier is a looser. And you should both play for your profisinal pride. ITs like MayWeather and Pacqua.

Excepte you two are more skilled and have more then one game. And without action you will both be irratated . And thats what life is all about Action. And a great chalange. And may the smartest man WIN.
 

Wayne

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stevelomako said:
This is kind of off topic but I'd like your opinion on this Artie.

Efren was always giving Cliff 8-7 and Cliff couldn't win.

I told Cliff we could get him staked for whatever Efrens side wanted to bet.....I told Cliff to ask for 12-10 or 13-11 instead of 8-7.


It never came off at that time but what do you think of that adjustment and who do you think it favors?
The adjustment would have definitely favored Cliff because he would have been losing more slowly.
 

Skin

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Artie, by your way of calculating what the free scratch is worth, it comes out to be 3.6 balls instead of 4.5 balls. Here's how I figure it, which is correct.

18-4 plus one free scratch is actually 18-5 minus 1. Because we know Viffer is going to scratch (it is in the spot), we know he is going to 5 instead of 4. The value of one of Viffer's balls at 18-5 is 3.6 Alex balls (18/5 = 3.6).

Now we calculate what the game is when the scratch is free.

18 + 3.6 = 21.6. Therefore, 18-4 plus a free scratch converts to 21.6 - 4 without a free scratch, not 22.5 - 4. You are almost a full ball too high.

However, I think this is an incorrect way to figure the value of the free scratch because there are only two possible outcomes for Viffer: either he wins the game or loses the game. What we really have to know is how often the free scratch will be the reason for a win for Viffer at 18-4.

If they are racing to 11, that is 21 possible games in the set. How many games out of 21 will Viffer win because of the free scratch? Unless they have played lots of games at 18-4 and at 18-4 plus a free scratch, we do not have enough information to confidently answer the question with math. But we could make a reasonable guess: what do you think? How many games out of 21 will the free scratch win the game for Viffer at 18-4? One or two, maybe?

Once we have that number we can compute whether this is a good game for Viffer. How many games out of 21 will he win at 18-4 and then add how many games out of 21 he will win just because of the free scratch? If our number is 11 or more, then Viffer has the better of it. If not, he had the worst of it.

This is a lot different than asking how many games out of 21 Viffer will win when the game is 21.6-4 (or 22.5-4 by your computations) in his favor, no free scratches.

Skin
 

NH Steve

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SJDinPHX said:
Steve,

I know you didn't ask me, but I think the "Odds Couple" (BI and AB) may have nodded off...Not that it really matters, but was this match recent, or some time ago ?

If Cliff couldn't win getting 8/7....I would think he would have even more the worst of a 12/10 or 13/11 match-up. I would really be surprised if Efren didn't jump at it...I've always considered 10/8 and 8/7 fairly close to the same thing, between two good players. (10/8 being maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of a ball better for the weaker player)

The weaker one of the two (Cliff in this case) would be in big trouble escalating his needing 3 or 4 more balls....And Effy only needing two more.
than Cliff...JMHO...(Hope no one considers this a knock)..:eek:
The only thing I wonder about this is, who do you think has the advantage maneuvering around the stack? Going to such high ball counts, is going to prolong the opening down table game that revolves around the stack, right?

When Cliff was playing his best a few years ago before he developed that big hitch in his stroke, there was nothing better than watching the two of them -- Efren & Cliff duke it out. They may have both been at the peak of their game. Those were my top DCC highlights for sure! I've seen a lot of entertaining stuff over the years there, but that was the best for pure top One Pocket epic matches.
 

Grady

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An important aspect of this interesting topic

An important aspect of this interesting topic

If a weak player like Dippy is getting spotted 16 to 4 shouldn't the scratches be assessed at the same ratio? I've always realized this. It's why sharp guys like Artie and Jack don't like to play 3 scratches in a row is loss of game.The more intentionals that are taken, the more the best of it the better player has.
Add to the equation the patience of Job that Artie and Jack had and the slow play, a weak player was usually finished before the match began. JMHO
 

androd

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Grady said:
If a weak player like Dippy is getting spotted 16 to 4 shouldn't the scratches be assessed at the same ratio? I've always realized this. It's why sharp guys like Artie and Jack don't like to play 3 scratches in a row is loss of game.The more intentionals that are taken, the more the best of it the better player has.
Add to the equation the patience of Job that Artie and Jack had and the slow play, a weak player was usually finished before the match began. JMHO
Yes, nobody mentioned that when weaker player puts the better player in such a terrible spot.The better player can take fouls himself and hope the weak player takes two behind him. ( which are now not free)
I still can't understand how people think something with so little offensive value can add so many theoretical balls to the other players game.;) It's so small an advantage, the math guys need to put some zeros and a decimal point in their calculations. It's still inane. :D
Rod
 
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usblues

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excellent

excellent

All good thoughts to be had here.If pool was a numbers game like accounting[legal] or the numbers[illegal] there would be sides winning along with Buffet or losing with Madoff.Betting on emotion and intensity which is more important on a table than off takes another kind of eye.Grady,Billy,Artie and only a few more here seem to have it though many claim to.Which is why nobody's giving away all the secrets or yearly comp checks to all the players.I should of started another thread,"Is it the head or the heart" we bet on.And why?As usual you can give 8-5 I dont know what Im talking about but I sure like this channel,B
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
A player can give anybody any game they want. And I will Show you That 10 to 8 your scratches dont count.

Is a way better game then 10 to 7 with scratches. Her is the proof to everyone. If you had to play Efern for big money.

What game would you take. 10 to 7 or 10 to 8 and your scratches dont count. The game getting free scratches is a way better game for you.
Correct Artie, 10-8 & scratches don't count is more weight than 10-7. I qualified my response by saying "if they knew how to take advantage". I said I would probably end up losing if they knew how to play it. I didn't mean to say that it's the same game, only that it could be given to a player who doesn't know how to play it and it could be like 10-7 scratches count, at least that's what I meant. Until he wised up anyway or someone wizened him up:) . If they knew how to take advantage of the spot I wouldn't give it up. I'm not suicidal:eek: .


Cowboy Dennis said:
NFS,

I played O.K. for a guy who has worked for 30 years. I just think that of all the guys I gave 10-7, and there were plenty, I would also give them all 10-8 and their fouls don't count. I would probably end up losing if they knew how to take advantage of the weight but I'd be in every game till the end.

Dennis
 

Skin

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androd said:
Yes, nobody mentioned that when weaker player puts the better player in such a terrible spot.The better player can take fouls himself and hope the weak player takes two behind him. ( which are now not free)I still can't understand how people think something with so little offensive value can add so many theoretical balls to the other players game.;) It's so small an advantage, the math guys need to put some zeros and a decimal point in their calculations. It's still inane. :D
Rod
I did, Rod, in "Question for Billy I" post #23. ;)

http://onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=56562&postcount=23

But...I have since changed my opinion of the value of the one free scratch spot and do not think it is as high as 2-3 balls (see my post above).

Skin
 

wincardona

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Intangible

Intangible

Gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The type of free scratch we're talking about here is intangible. Let me explain. This is the way the free scratch is designed, and it shouldn't even be called a free scratch because it technically isn't.

Here we go. The free scratch is awarded to Dippie only before he shoots and he must stipulate that he is taking his penalty free stroke (free scratch)

If someone can explain to me how you put a ball value on that I would like to hear it. I'm saying that there isn't a way to place a ball value on something that has 100,000's differen't possible scenarios. And not only that they are discretional decisions that Dippie is making. He actually could be taking his free scratch when he has a better choice with a legal shot. Who's to say that his decision is worth 1,2,3,or even 4 balls? It may not be worth anything, true?

Skin your way of figuring out the ball value is somewhat misleading, because it was based on Arties belief that that's the way you should figure it out. You applied the correct formula to the problem based on Arties reasoning, but Arties reasoning could be wrong. Then you said that your findings would tell us how many game Dippie would save with the free scratch. Your conclusion doen't tell us the ball value, it tells us the game won % pct. Which is differen't then the ball value.

Here's an example, when the line maker makes a line on a football game in terms of points (balls) it looks like this.. Pittsburgh - 7 points against Detroit..

A money line with no points involved would be... Pittsburgh minus $250 to win $100...(no ball spot)

the money line is the type of line Skin will be able to give you if his concept is right in figuring out the games won that wouldn't of been won without the free scratch. But it can't tell you what a ball value is unless there is a track record on the games won and lost with the free scratch involving Gabe and Dippie. Because the free scratch will vary in value with differen't players.


Billy I.
 
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CaliRed

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wincardona said:
If someone can explain to me how you put a ball value on that I would like to hear it. I'm saying that there isn't a way to place a ball value on something that has 100,000's differen't possible scenarios. And not only that they are discretional decisions that Dippie is making. He actually could be taking his free scratch when he has a better choice with a legal shot. Who's to say that his decision is worth 1,2,3,or even 4 balls? It may not be worth anything, true?

Billy I.
That is exactly what I was wondering, when I was reading about how you take the players height divided by the length of his cue times the no. of balls he is going to minus the change in his pocket to determine what a free/intentional scratch is worth.

I guess 2 players would need to have a general idea of what that spot would be worth, in order to make a game with it, but I think it would be more determined by what player A thinks player B would do with the spot and how much it might hurt him, then any kind of mathematical formula.

When you get into the gaff spots, there are a lot of intangibles, that's why they are introduced in the first place.. to try and take advantage of the opponents failure to understand how big or small that spot may be.

All of this is based upon my current mindset at 10:10 am on Friday Dec 2nd in the year of the Lord 2010:D
 

wincardona

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wincardona said:
Gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The type of free scratch we're talking about here is intangible. Let me explain. This is the way the free scratch is designed, and it shouldn't even be called a free scratch because it technically isn't.

Here we go. The free scratch is awarded to Dippie only before he shoots and he must stipulate that he is taking his penalty free stroke (free scratch)

If someone can explain to me how you put a ball value on that I would like to hear it. I'm saying that there isn't a way to place a ball value on something that has 100,000's differen't possible scenarios. And not only that they are discretional decisions that Dippie is making. He actually could be taking his free scratch when he has a better choice with a legal shot. Who's to say that his decision is worth 1,2,3,or even 4 balls? It may not be worth anything, true?

Skin your way of figuring out the ball value is somewhat misleading, because it was based on Arties belief that that's the way you should figure it out. You applied the correct formula to the problem based on Arties reasoning, but Arties reasoning could be wrong. Then you said that your findings would tell us how many game Dippie would save with the free scratch. Your conclusion doen't tell us the ball value, it tells us the game won % pct. Which is differen't then the ball value.

Here's an example, when the line maker makes a line on a football game in terms of points (balls) it looks like this.. Pittsburgh - 7 points against Detroit..
A money line with no points involved would be... Pittsburgh minus $250 to win $100...(no ball spot)

The money line is the type of line Skin will be able to give you if his concept is right in figuring out the games won that wouldn't of been won without the free scratch. But it can't tell you what a ball value is unless there is a track record on the games won and lost with the free scratch involving Gabe and Dippie. Because the free scratch will vary in value with differen't players.


Billy I.
This may sound a little egotistical, but i'm 100% sure about what I say in regard to this spot. The only way you can put a ball value (per game)on this type of a spot is by charting how many balls Dippie pocketed (total) in lets say 500 games playing Gabe 18 to 4 WITH THE FREE SCRATCH OPTION. Then they must play 500 more games with the same spot WITHOUT THE FREE SCRATCH OPTION but Gabe still goes to 18 and Dippie goes to 4. Then count the number of balls that Dippie pockets (total) in the 500 games that were played SEPERATELY WITH BOTH SCENARIOS.

Once you get the number of balls Dippie pocketed in the first 500 games with the free scratch option lets say it's 1500 balls.

Then they play another 500 games without the free scratch option and count the number of balls Dippie pockets lets say 1250 balls.

Then you will take 1500 minus 1250 and you will get the difference in balls pocketed in both scenarios 250 balls

Then you will divide the difference in number of balls pocketed 250 into the number of games played 500 and you will get the ball value of the spot (free scratch) per game. FOR THESE TWO PLAYERS.= 2

So with the two players discussed providing that the balls pocketed by Dippie is accurate the ball value for this spot (free scratch)per game between THESE TWO PLAYERS is 2

When the players change the ball value changes with this type of a spot because its a discretional decision when and how to use the free scratch. Plus there are too many differen't possible scenarios to figure out.

Billy I.
 
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Artie Bodendorfer

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CaliRed said:
That is exactly what I was wondering, when I was reading about how you take the players height divided by the length of his cue times the no. of balls he is going to minus the change in his pocket to determine what a free/intentional scratch is worth.

I guess 2 players would need to have a general idea of what that spot would be worth, in order to make a game with it, but I think it would be more determined by what player A thinks player B would do with the spot and how much it might hurt him, then any kind of mathematical formula.

When you get into the gaff spots, there are a lot of intangibles, that's why they are introduced in the first place.. to try and take advantage of the opponents failure to understand how big or small that spot may be.

All of this is based upon my current mindset at 10:10 am on Friday Dec 2nd in the year of the Lord 2010:D
One thing I learned in life. If I dont no the aswer I listen to someone who does no. I dont say thats imposable or it cant be done.

Everything can be figuerd out and has a correct price. I will say it again tell some one proves that my aswer is incorect.

And has a percentage expert or a probability expert give the correct answer. And why. All I am getting is nonesense and different propositios. And the change what I say into something different.

The one person that did stay on the what I said was the Goast. So Hiis opinion is more creditable because he does not jump off the topick. That I posted. And he repeted it more then one time.

And I want too thank him for understanding what I was saying.Weather hje agrees or not is his choice. Like everyone else.

But he did not try to change the wording or what I said. And If we can get pther great players to respond. THat have a great background Like Varner Buddy Hall Allen Hopkines.

And player that would answer more realistick. With knowledge instead off EGO. And SJD and Freddy but people mignt think they are pregiduice or Byass. But I can say without any reason.

If YOU dont no the correct answer why would say. Someone elses answer is incorrect. If you dont have the correct answer how can you say that someone elses answer is incorrect. This paragrapy says a lot.

And I would like to say one moore thing. To SJD and I do put him in a class with the players that no the answers. Because I have reed a lot off his posts and they make sense. When he is not joking or trying to get someone excited.

Her is a example SJD said that he would take nine to eight and the other player gets a free scratch.

And I said thats as close as I said one scratch in a 8 to 8 one pocket game is worth one ball. Or do you people disagree with that too. Then tell me why.

And I would give up a free scratch for 9 to 8 also. Her is WHY. I mite never us the free scratch that I am getting a ball for.

Her is the real answer why would I give up a ball. For a free sratch????? When I can take a scratch any time I want too and then pay a ball for the sratch.

Doesnt that make more sense then getting a free scratch and give up a ball that you might not have too pay. But I will leave this off at this Qouistion. If Two players play even.

A foul or scratch it costs both players a ball. Is that correct. And howe much would a free scratch or fowl cost them? One ball. And unless someone changes the qouistion exacte qouistion.

THe answer will be the same. Is this correct or not. And thanks Goast for understanding my qoistion. And not deveating from it. WE will see what happines too this qouistion. I can not go further into the handy cap unless we understand and agree with what I just wrote.

And if you disagree with this also. Then you need to give the correct answer. And not him and how around. Give the facts. I dont want to her a no aswer response. Because that will not help the people who want the correct answer.

And getting the correct answer should be our goal. Each and everyone off us. And that is all I am trying to say. Lets get the correct answer If you dont agree with mein. Thanks I will be back.
 

SJDinPHX

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It amazes me that so much time, and ink, has been spent on this thread. It is almost like one of those AZB aiming system threads...although a lot less flame-y and insulting. (however, almost as boring) I shall attempt to rectify that...at least the "insulting" part...:D

For all practical purposes, it was summed up accurately very early on, by Rod, myself and others..."One free scratch per game, is almost infinitismal, in the context of an 18 to 4 game, as we are discussing here". Also, as Billy said, its "intangible" at best...I say its also very, very insignificant.

I vote we move on to some other topic... I, for one, would almost as soon hear someone beating his own drum, or expounding endlessly on his [sic] "Beat List"...as to continue this thread.....(well, almost)..:eek:
 
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cuesmith

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wincardona said:
Gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The type of free scratch we're talking about here is intangible. Let me explain. This is the way the free scratch is designed, and it shouldn't even be called a free scratch because it technically isn't.

Here we go. The free scratch is awarded to Dippie only before he shoots and he must stipulate that he is taking his penalty free stroke (free scratch)

If someone can explain to me how you put a ball value on that I would like to hear it. I'm saying that there isn't a way to place a ball value on something that has 100,000's differen't possible scenarios. And not only that they are discretional decisions that Dippie is making. He actually could be taking his free scratch when he has a better choice with a legal shot. Who's to say that his decision is worth 1,2,3,or even 4 balls? It may not be worth anything, true?

Skin your way of figuring out the ball value is somewhat misleading, because it was based on Arties belief that that's the way you should figure it out. You applied the correct formula to the problem based on Arties reasoning, but Arties reasoning could be wrong. Then you said that your findings would tell us how many game Dippie would save with the free scratch. Your conclusion doen't tell us the ball value, it tells us the game won % pct. Which is differen't then the ball value.

Here's an example, when the line maker makes a line on a football game in terms of points (balls) it looks like this.. Pittsburgh - 7 points against Detroit..

A money line with no points involved would be... Pittsburgh minus $250 to win $100...(no ball spot)

the money line is the type of line Skin will be able to give you if his concept is right in figuring out the games won that wouldn't of been won without the free scratch. But it can't tell you what a ball value is unless there is a track record on the games won and lost with the free scratch involving Gabe and Dippie. Because the free scratch will vary in value with differen't players.


Billy I.

I think I'd have to reconsider what I said before and agree with what Billy said here. The value of a free scratch is a hard thing to quantify. There are so many factors that you can't even begin to consider all the possibilities. In some games it means nothing and others it could mean the game. Also the different players involved, their shooting styles and strengths and weaknesses all would be involved to a point that trying to give it a "ball value" would be nothing more than a guess, maybe an educated guess, but a guess all the same.
 

lll

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artie if i understand you correctly you are calculating the value of the free scratch by the percentage difference in the amount of ballls needed to win the game by both parties.
ie the 18/4 example is a 4 1/2 ball difference
8/8 is a one ball difference
to me i think there is flawed logic in that assumption
i think the value is more dependent on the number of balls the weaker player is getting and the percentage of that.
for the weaker player each ball is tough
so for a weak player to get to 4 instead of 5 if the scratch counted
versus the player having to get to 9 instead of 8
id say that the player going to 4 has more difficulty making balls than the player that has to go to 8 (lets say a 20-8 spot)
so one ball means more to the player that needs less balls to win.
1/4 =%25
1/8=%12.5
that is how i see the difference of the free scratch.
how many balls is that worth to the spotter/spottee
p.s. thanks to rod for pointing out this way to look at it:)
 

lll

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for those that say you cant predict the weight of a free scratch before the break and before a series of games is played.
how can you say a hit and a pick is worth 2 balls when you dont know what kind of hit or what picks will be made.??
how did it come to be the break was worth 1 1/2 to 2 balls???
artie im not trying to hijack the thread . i think this is relevant to your question
 

Skin

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Sep 11, 2008
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lll said:
for those that say you cant predict the weight of a free scratch before the break and before a series of games is played.
how can you say a hit and a pick is worth 2 balls when you dont know what kind of hit or what picks will be made.??
how did it come to be the break was worth 1 1/2 to 2 balls???
artie im not trying to hijack the thread . i think this is relevant to your question
Good questions, Larry. Here is an analogous question:

What would a free out be worth in a baseball game? Not an extra out, but a free safe call on an out.

Skin
 
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