The Real Price off a Free Scratch

Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
infetismal
I understand that you are now 112 yrs. old and I'm happy that you are now spelling "HUGE" correctly but could you please at least sound out "infinitesimal" the next time you write it?

P.S. I spelled it wrong the first time but "spellcheck" fixed it for me:D .

RBL
 

Cowboy Dennis

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One Pocket Ghost said:
All of this said by Sherm and Billy is so obviously true, that it's ridiculous to think any differently...

The scratch can be worth anywhere from 0, to many balls - this result being completely changeable from rack to rack...here's just one example...

You're playing a guy 8 to 8, but you get a scratch - It's the 4th inning of the game, 0 to 0 - You use your scratch to put your opponent in a bad trap - He tries to get out of it and sells out - You run 8 and out....How much was that scratch just worth to you that game?....:cool:

- Ghost
Ghosty,

Although Bill is correct, you and cuesmith are not. AB said "here is the value before the balls are broken" or words to that effect. You and cuesmith both put forth scenarios that occur after the balls are broken. You can always make up a situation where the spot will hurt or help the weaker player.

Dennis
 

newfosgatesucks

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I would gladly play a guy who could give me 10-8 and be close with scratches dont count. Keep in mind it would be WAY different at pro level. I wouldnt consider it.

The stipulation is that jumping a ball off the table OR scratching in the pocket are still considered a foul. Otherwise there are a few bad traps we all know of.

In other words, you have control of whether you give a ball to the spot - if you leave the cueball on the table no ball owed if it leaves the table in any way you owe one.

End game your opponent will learn he cannot leave you close by the pocket. It costs him a ball. Opening game he starts off frozen between the rail and the ball by his pocket unless there is higher percentage shot. Mid game.

You have to milk the spot and play an entire different game.

But at the level of play say Pagulayan is at I would want to make LESS balls and the real effect of On-table fouls not counting is to get your opponent to make a few more and to use it in the few and far between circumstances where you can turn around the position of the table by leaving him bad - That alone is worth less than a ball a game in the long run.

What is another ball or two for Pag? Scott? Not much. So at that level I would rather have to go less to their more, than figuring in the foul not counting, as it is only good for making them go to another ball or two.

And the best trap I found for the spot - throughout the game you do this....

Weigh the strength of this move (A) against move (B) when you have balls to run but cant get but one or two
(A) run and play a mild move/strategy/aggressive shot
(B) Slow roll last ball to your hole, so he has to give it up. Now you are by a pocket and corner hook him. Or he has to leave you elsewhere...would you rather be elsewhere as to make move (A) or have him corner hooked than (A) then choose this option.

That is the Tip of the iceberg. The WHOLE tip, granted, but there is more.
What is more potentially rewarding A or B? EVERY SINGLE SHOT of the game you must face this. And if you are a good soft touch player the spot is worth more than the spot is to an aggressive player. But against a pro....I dont like it sayin its worth a ball. Either case you have to know the spot and be the type of patient player it takes to know if you can adjust and play accordingly, many cannot.

But you will find 6 spots on the table(the pockets) where you CAN NOT LEAVE ME if I get this spot. And then it is no good to ever leave in the center of the table....So where will you leave me? Wherever it is I would hope it is within a foot of another ball unless I have a 100 percent shot, as I will CONSTANTLY weigh whether a shot is better than freezing you on the nearest ball, titty, or sometimes rail.

But I would DEFINITELY rather have a hand span. Then you never have a complete trap.

But I say these things in relation to my game, and considering the speed of a guy who would give me 10-8 play all night and be close. Someone heavier weight it is different. LEss and less of a spot as their ability is more and more.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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newfosgatesucks said:
I would gladly play a guy who could give me 10-8 and be close with scratches dont count.
NFS,

Any player who can give you 10-7 can give you 10-8 & scratches don't count. At least that's my opinion. It would be close I think, I'm thinking of the players that I've spotted 10-7. You still can't get 7 unless you shoot at your pocket.

Dennis
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Ghosty,

Although Bill is correct, you and cuesmith are not. AB said "here is the value before the balls are broken" or words to that effect. You and cuesmith both put forth scenarios that occur after the balls are broken. You can always make up a situation where the spot will hurt or help the weaker player.

Dennis

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis - yes we are correct, just like Billy...I can't believe that you don't see that what cuesmith and I said is the reality - whether it's said before the balls are broken, after they're broken, 2 years ago, 2 years from now, it doesn't matter...the non-static nature of the scratch spot, game by game is the reality - this being the case, is why what Billy said is correct - what we said and what Billy said, is all connected, in a matrix.

- Ghost
 

Cowboy Dennis

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis - yes we are correct, just like Billy...I can't believe that you don't see that what cuesmith and I said is the reality - whether it's said before the balls are broken, after they're broken, 2 years ago, 2 years from now, it doesn't matter...the non-static nature of the scratch spot, game by game is the reality - this being the case, is why what Billy said is correct - what we said and what Billy said, is all connected, in a matrix.

- Ghost
Ghosty, Bruce, Luke,

Is this analogy correct: If an NFL team is favored by 8 points BEFORE kickoff but then AFTER kickoff the weaker team runs the ball back to the 1 yard line, is the 8 point line still correct? I write this in all seriousness, I'm not an oddsmaker or an NFL bettor(except when stealing from Ducks).

Dennis
 

androd

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One Pocket Ghost said:
You're playing a guy 8 to 8, but you get a scratch - It's the 4th inning of the game, 0 to 0 - You use your scratch to put your opponent in a bad trap - He tries to get out of it and sells out - You run 8 and out....How much was that scratch just worth to you that game?....:cool:
Ghost,
All joking aside this is just inane, Surely you don't believe this.
Rod.
PS, As for Cuesmith saying one free foul is worth the break,before the balls are broken, it surely isn't. ;)
 

newfosgatesucks

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That leads me to believe you are a little better than I. That was my disclaimer : the better the player, the weaker the spot is worth in balls.

Cowboy Dennis said:
NFS,

Any player who can give you 10-7 can give you 10-8 & scratches don't count. At least that's my opinion. It would be close I think, I'm thinking of the players that I've spotted 10-7. You still can't get 7 unless you shoot at your pocket.

Dennis
 

One Pocket Ghost

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androd said:
Ghost,
All joking aside this is just inane, Surely you don't believe this.Rod.
PS, As for Cuesmith saying one free foul is worth the break,before the balls are broken, it surely isn't. ;)
Believe what? - your response is incorrect and doesn't apply, because...I didn't make a statement here, I asked a question.

- Ghost
 

Cowboy Dennis

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newfosgatesucks said:
That leads me to believe you are a little better than I. That was my disclaimer : the better the player, the weaker the spot is worth in balls.
NFS,

I played O.K. for a guy who has worked for 30 years. I just think that of all the guys I gave 10-7, and there were plenty, I would also give them all 10-8 and their fouls don't count. I would probably end up losing if they knew how to take advantage of the weight but I'd be in every game till the end.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Believe what? - your response is incorrect and doesn't apply, because...I didn't make a statement here, I asked a question.

- Ghost
Ghosty,

You asked a question about a specific situation in a game in progress. As Artie pointed out the line changes every shot & and every situation during a game.

Dennis
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Ghosty,

You asked a question about a specific situation in a game in progress. As Artie pointed out the line changes every shot & and every situation during a game.

Dennis

Is your name Rod?..:rolleyes:...:) <------note smiley face

- Ghost
 

androd

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One Pocket Ghost said:
I didn't make a statement here,

- Ghost
One Pocket Ghost said:
All of this said by Sherm and Billy is so obviously true, that it's ridiculous to think any differently..
Although I agree with Billy I don't feel ridiculous.:p
Rod.
 

cuesmith

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Ghosty,

Although Bill is correct, you and cuesmith are not. AB said "here is the value before the balls are broken" or words to that effect. You and cuesmith both put forth scenarios that occur after the balls are broken. You can always make up a situation where the spot will hurt or help the weaker player.

Dennis

What do you mean. A free scratch is like a "get out of jail free card". That can mean a heck of a lot if used when you're in a jam.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Is your name Rod?..:rolleyes:...:) <------note smiley face

- Ghost
Ghosty, Ghosty, Ghosty,

Smiley face noted. The line, before the game starts, in my opinion, is based on what would happen in a long session, over time. It's also based on talent level differences and knowledge differences. Either of us could make up a scenario where the weight hurts or helps one player or the other. It's over the course of a long session that the weight is important, not a single imagined scenario by either of us. You must make the line before the game starts. The odds may change during specific games in certain situations but, overall, the line is correct in the long run. That's the topic here (I think):D <<<note smiley f@@king faces>>>:D .

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Am I confused, or am I right?

Am I confused, or am I right?

I believe what Artie is saying is what is the value of a free scratch in terms of MAKING A GAME. How many ball/ balls is the free scratch worth in making the game.

EXAMPLE; Gabe Owen against Dippie

This is how Artie thinks they should play with and with out the free scratch.

Gabe giving Dippie 18 to 4 and a free scratch.

OR

Gabe givig Dippie 22 1/2 to 4 NO FREE SCRATCH

What Artie is saying is that the free scratch in THIS MATCH UP is worth 4 1/2 balls.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS, NO WAY IS IT WORTH 4 1/2 BALLS.:eek:
YOU CANNOT FIGURE MATHEMATICALLY WHAT THE FREE SCRATCH IS WORTH THE WAY IT'S DESIGNED FOR THIS MATCH.

TRUST ME, I'M A DOCTOR:D :D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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cuesmith said:
What do you mean. A free scratch is like a "get out of jail free card". That can mean a heck of a lot if used when you're in a jam.
cuesmith,

This is correct for one shot in one situation but we are talking about setting a line BEFORE the game begins. You cannot forsee any circumstances before the game begins that will affect the weight given. You must go on talent, knowledge, heart, endurance and whatever else must be considered. If you were a bookie setting a line you would set the line and then not sweat out the shot by shot or game by game results. You would wait till the match was over and then see what happened. One shot or game does not determine whether or not the weight is appropriate, the weaker player will always win some games that he shouldn't and the better player will always win some games that he shouldn't and vice-versa.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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wincardona said:
I believe what Artie is saying is what is the value of a free scratch in terms of MAKING A GAME. How many ball/ balls is the free scratch worth in making the game.

EXAMPLE; Gabe Owen against Dippie

This is how Artie thinks they should play with and with out the free scratch.

Gabe giving Dippie 18 to 4 and a free scratch.

OR

Gabe givig Dippie 22 1/2 to 4 NO FREE SCRATCH

What Artie is saying is that the free scratch in THIS MATCH UP is worth 4 1/2 balls.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS, NO WAY IS IT WORTH 4 1/2 BALLS.:eek:
YOU CANNOT FIGURE MATHEMATICALLY WHAT THE FREE SCRATCH IS WORTH THE WAY IT'S DESIGNED FOR THIS MATCH.

TRUST ME, I'M A DOCTOR:D :D
WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE BALLS ARE BROKEN? THE GAME IS MADE BEFORE THE BALLS ARE BROKEN. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW TO HANDICAPP A GAME WITH A FREE SCRATCH IN TERMS OF PLACING A VALUE ON HOW MUCH THE FREE SCRATCH IS WORTH IN THE SPOT.

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
WHAT I'M SAYING IS, NO WAY IS IT WORTH 4 1/2 BALLS.:eek:
YOU CANNOT FIGURE MATHEMATICALLY WHAT THE FREE SCRATCH IS WORTH THE WAY IT'S DESIGNED FOR THIS MATCH.

TRUST ME, I'M A DOCTOR:D :D
Bill,

Obviously, all intelligent persons on this site agree with you, so far anyway:D .

Dennis
 
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