The Line between Gopher and Amazing

[Billy Jackets]

The more videos I watch of Tony Chohan , the harder the line is to find, between what we used to refer to, as a "gopher or idiot shot" and a powerful response. I just watched him and Warren Kiamco from a couple of years ago.
Every single time Warren had balls that were near his pocket and stuck Tony behind the stack, if he didn't freeze him on something {sometimes even when he did} Tony just shot what most people would think would be a sell out shot , except he moved every ball away from Warrens side , and most of them went towards his pocket.
It must be maddening, to think you played a great safe, and you have the guy in an awful trap , then he shoots and either runs out , or turns it all around, and now you are sucking air.
I know Raphael Martinez used to do a lot of high wire shots, but Tony even fires at more than he did , and he usually hits them good , that's the scary part.
I have no thought, that this is how everyone is supposed to play, he is a unique guy and it works for him, Im sure there will be a few others who emulate him pretty well, but I don't see the game changing into his type of play on a big scale. Frankly, even if some other people could actually do it , you have to have no fear, to play that way, game after game , and as others have mentioned , not be overly concerned with the score.
Not everyone can bring that feature to the table.
You could watch Kiamco just deflate, when time after time he made a good shot to hide Tony, and when he came back to the table ,it looked like he sold out.

 

[unoperro]

So many of the "money" players arent bothered by selling out. They shoot what they believe is their best chance to immediatly win,not move for 3 or 4 turns later.
If they miss well next time they shoot they expect to be succesful. On to the next match/game

 

[beatle]

they unconsciously know that shooting the shot that gives them the best chance of winning that game is always the right shot to take. no exceptions.
where they go wrong is not knowing what that shot is many times.

 

[NH Steve]

Or, the line is drawn after the shot -- if it works it was amazing, and if it does not it was a gopher

 

[Ratamon]

Those flashy gung-ho multi-ball shots are clear crowd pleasers but you have to be mad at your backer/wallet to shoot them for big money. There are numerous compilations of Tony's shots on youtube/fakebook that worked out well but there are many more that didn't and cost him the game/match.

Tony lost the last two big money matches against Orcollo (produced by Ray Hansen PoolActionTV) and the scores weren't even close - 40-33 and 40-30 IIRC. Same goes for his match against Alex - the Lion won 3 consecutive sets in the best of 5 for a total score of 30-20. I can't even recall his most recent significant win - he even managed to lose to Filler who is a complete one pocket rookie which is an embarassment, in and of itself.

 

[Jeff sparks]

I’m wondering if Tony bets his own? Makes a hell of a difference whether a player is staked or bets his own. Matching up is much more difficult when the two players are betting their own money, or at least, it used to be that way. Most matches are won before the balls are even racked up! Pool games, ( one pocket in particular) are won with skill, and for the most part, luck doesn’t enter into it.

If you depend on money you win playing pool to support your family, you match up much more carefully than if you’re single, it’s simple math, you just don’t book losers, if you’re married with kids, you match up accordingly and you go for the throat!

If you’re single, young, and have talent, you can be a gunslinger and bet your own, or get staked, or do just about anything you want... Cause the next game, or potential score is right around the corner..

I’d be surprised if Tony is betting his own...

 

[beatle]

now with the ppv you dont know what happening with who gets what money and what they are really betting.

and what the game actually is. the side bet could be much different than playing even for the tv audience.

very few pool players are betting their own for big money except for an occasional match simply because they do not have big money and cant keep it for other than a short time if they get it..

 

[Maxwell]

they unconsciously know that shooting the shot that gives them the best chance of winning that game is always the right shot to take. no exceptions.
where they go wrong is not knowing what that shot is many times.

Tony has said this is his guiding principle, that he has to shoot when a shot presents itself, and he shoots many shots that others wont. What has started to amaze me is how good his cue ball is, for shape and safety.

 

[Billy Jackets]

Bet their own, let me ponder that a moment.

 

[catkins]

Part of the problem with pro pool in general is that there is this expectation (unlike other sports) that the players should put up there own money to play and that if they don't there is some how business going on. I am not saying that there are not reasons for this attitude but I think if people want pool recognized as a sport or even respectable it is this expectation that needs to be combated. When two great players play for us on a live stream I think it is more than obvious that they should be paid!

 

[unoperro]

Those flashy gung-ho multi-ball shots are clear crowd pleasers but you have to be mad at your backer/wallet to shoot them for big money. There are numerous compilations of Tony's shots on youtube/fakebook that worked out well but there are many more that didn't and cost him the game/match.

Tony lost the last two big money matches against Orcollo (produced by Ray Hansen PoolActionTV) and the scores weren't even close - 40-33 and 40-30 IIRC. Same goes for his match against Alex - the Lion won 3 consecutive sets in the best of 5 for a total score of 30-20. I can't even recall his most recent significant win - he even managed to lose to Filler who is a complete one pocket rookie which is an embarassment, in and of itself.

Not many can beat any of those 3 so is this really a surprise?

 

[Billy Jackets]

Part of the problem with pro pool in general is that there is this expectation (unlike other sports) that the players should put up there own money to play and that if they don't there is some how business going on. I am not saying that there are not reasons for this attitude but I think if people want pool recognized as a sport or even respectable it is this expectation that needs to be combated. When two great players play for us on a live stream I think it is more than obvious that they should be paid!

I'm sure most of the sane people in the group feel the same way,
Most of us in this forum have been around 50 or 60 years of pool and know what has happened, Pool is in a catch 22 in my opinion.
It needs people involved to promote it, who can emulate the people who put on a major golf or tennis tournament. { I'm not saying they are a better class of people or smarter or more honest, they just don't have their last victims monogrammed luggage in their hand, when they land at the airport.}
The problem is , every time any of those types gets involved, they come away with a bloody stump.
Ultimately, it is the players , who have to change this persona, which will probably never happen, because they need the rent money today, not 2 years from now.
There was 1 time in my life where I thought it was going to happen, the players gave it a valiant effort, and I have to give all of those guys credit for seeing their one opportunity, and making the monumental effort to change, the problem that time, was that the promoter was playing a bigger scam than the players.
He has been punished I think, more than any of us would have thought was fair , so it isn't right imo to beat him any longer.
The really sad part is that almost all of us are pool addicts, and many have the financial wherewithal,collectively , to form a corporation to promote pool in a really positive fashion, but yet , we won't, for the reasons we all know. If we won't back it , why would anyone else?

 

[Jeff sparks]

Guess I’m crazy... But I’ve always admired a guy who bets his own money.... I think that betting your own money always serves you in the best of ways...

Maybe times have changed, and perhaps players should get paid to play on PPV or streamed matches, I have no take on that, because I don’t have the slightest idea if enough money is made by the providers to be able to pay the players... it would be nice of course if they were compensated, they are after all very talented and their skill level in almost all other sports is rewarded handsomely.

I certainly cant blame todays players for playing these high stakes matches, it’s a shot to make a score without risking anything but their time..

I have heard Dennis O. bets his own, but I’m not around the action anymore, so I have no way of knowing who does and who doesn’t?
I know that whenever he plays, he ain’t giving nothing away! it’s absolutely total concentration! That leads me to believe he has his money up...

 

[Ratamon]

Not many can beat any of those 3 so is this really a surprise?

The scoreline was surprising, yes. That sort of margin suggests Tony was stupid enough to lock himself into the games he had no chance of winning.

 

[beatle]

nothing wrong with getting paid to play for tv. it has always been that way. and having a prize for the winner is great. but in probably all other sports the players are severely punished if they make any split the money deals as it isnt allowed. poker it is allowed in some tournaments but isnt allowed to be hidden. and has to be at the end and not before. although early on some players swap a piece of each other.

in these matches they advertise x number of dollars is in the middle. but that is misleading and deceitful if it isnt in the middle for the winning player. until all the money is made transparent, pool will always be suspicious.

 

[beatle]

ratamon,

the only way tony could possibly get in those games with the conditions being bad for him is he is stupid as you say or doesnt care as he had a freeroll, or had to play because his backers were profiting from it.

 

[unoperro]

The scoreline was surprising, yes. That sort of margin suggests Tony was stupid enough to lock himself into the games he had no chance of winning.

I want to be crystal clear , I don't think Tony is stupid.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I do not know if this thread ended up knocking Tony or praising him, I only know as a player, he has my absolute respect. Whitey

 

[baby huey]

Very few if any top players of today bet their own except maybe Shane. In fact his entire family loads up on him when he is playing big sets. I think Alex bets his own too. There are some shortstops who bet their own because they believe in themselves and work or have the means to bet their own and they have heart. That's the history of pool in that most players are looking for benefactors. Some top players from the past who bet their own were; Larry Liscotti, CJ Wiley, Richie Florence, Minnesota Fats, Harold Worst and Craig Stevens to name a few. Of the top players I mentioned they also possessed charisma. Us mere mortals wanted to be around these guys because these guys DID what we all want to be ourselves and that is possess great skill and gamble. I'll also throw in some guy named Billy Incardona.

 

[beatle]

stupid in the making of his games. not necessarily in other things. but he did go to jail for transporting drugs or some similar charge.
as far as pool playing he certainly is in the top few. cant take that away from the man.