The key to one pocket !

Skin

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gbru said:
Skin........I saw that shot also but it doesn't lay right. You can only hit about 4/5 of the 15 and that 's skimming the 14 close. If the 15 will caroms off the left side of the 3 then carom off the 13 and go towards his hole you could be in big trouble.

When you close one eye on a regulation table to sight and you can only see part of a ball you have to masse' to hit more of it. The same should holds true with the WEI table. Hold a straight edge to the board and you can't see all of the 15. It's not center to center it's edge to edge.

I really like that shot and would have picked it first but it won't go.

George
On second look, I think you're right George. I guess Blackeee pointed that out too, but I didn't see his post before putting up mine. Probably the best that can be gotten out of the WEI diagrams is just having fun. And besides that, I hope everybody knows better than to listen to me anyway!

Skin
 

gbru

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Execution

Execution

Skin said:
On second look, I think you're right George. I guess Blackeee pointed that out too, but I didn't see his post before putting up mine. Probably the best that can be gotten out of the WEI diagrams is just having fun. And besides that, I hope everybody knows better than to listen to me anyway!

Skin
Skin........

I appreciate everbodys comments myself. That's how I learn. That was great recognition on your part to see that shot. Anyway, recognition is only part of it. Shooting it is the difficult part. And you are correct. The WEI table is just for fun and learning. You would have probably seen the variance at first glance on a regulation table. And, the WEI table shots don't cost anything if you mess them up.

Having fun-----george
 

senor

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Here's one I'm surprised noone else has posted or mentioned. BTW, if the shot fell right to leave whitey in the stack between the 12 & 13, I like that shot a lot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AXsi4BDmx3CHet3DAVM4ELwj3FEtr4GBjO4HAcx3IAMl3JXXr4KEdR3LBCQ3MDvO4NBah3ODee4PWOO3UXsi2UTCQ3eXXr3ebJv4eUWa4kWOO3kGbk3kUmo3kaqI3kYrE3kYrE3kYjD3kYjD3kYay@

Freddy mentioned the two-railer. I like that shot, also, especially when the 5 is a little closer to the rail. I'm sure Bugs shot the shot to make it. Myself, sometimes I would shoot shots like that to have my opponent thinking I might shoot anything (and I might) or to try to coax my opponent to loosen up a little bit.

Any thoughts on trying to influence your opponent to loosen up their play or tighten up their play?
 

vapros

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Whew!

Whew!

That's a nifty-looking shot, but can you really get that much english on the cue ball? The ten looks out of reach to me. Maybe if you played it off the five ball and then the short rail to hit the ten . . . Let's hear other opinions.

I told you I can't resist these.
 

gulfportdoc

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senor said:
Any thoughts on trying to influence your opponent to loosen up their play or tighten up their play?
Senor, if you shoot THAT shot, you'd loosen up Jimmy Fusco himself!:) Even Freddie might try some exotic shots, playing a guy that would shoot that shot.;)

Seriously, unless that shot were hit perfectly, 9 times out of 10 you'd sell out one of the three balls-- and probably more.

Doc
 

senor

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gulfportdoc said:
Senor, if you shoot THAT shot, you'd loosen up Jimmy Fusco himself!:) Even Freddie might try some exotic shots, playing a guy that would shoot that shot.;)

Seriously, unless that shot were hit perfectly, 9 times out of 10 you'd sell out one of the three balls-- and probably more.

Doc
Okay, let's pretend the five ball isn't there, or that it is frozen to the rail. The situation is much, much tougher now because you can't easily slide off the five ball and try to nit your way behind the ten ball.

I was surprised noone mentioned the shot because it's a fairly normal break response. Obviously, in the given situation, more often than not I would slide off the five ball and nit my way behind the ten :)

And in all honesty, I was surprised by your response. Regardless of your playing ability, it seems like you've been around long enough to know that above average one pocket players can execute this shot if the situation calls for it. You say it's a sell out 9 out of 10 times...I say let me play that guy who can't execute the shot.
 

chicagomike

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senor said:
Okay, let's pretend the five ball isn't there, or that it is frozen to the rail. The situation is much, much tougher now because you can't easily slide off the five ball and try to nit your way behind the ten ball.

I was surprised noone mentioned the shot because it's a fairly normal break response. Obviously, in the given situation, more often than not I would slide off the five ball and nit my way behind the ten :)

And in all honesty, I was surprised by your response. Regardless of your playing ability, it seems like you've been around long enough to know that above average one pocket players can execute this shot if the situation calls for it. You say it's a sell out 9 out of 10 times...I say let me play that guy who can't execute the shot.
Senor,
I tend to agree with Doc. It just seems as if to kick-bank the 10 ball looks near impossible based on the diagram layout. I agree with you that it is a textbook shot for advanced players, but in this particular case the shot doesn't look possible.

I like cutting the 5 ball and caroming 2 rails into the 10 ball with medium speed. The only concern would be getting the 5 ball high enough as to neutralized the return bank in the event the cue ball remains under the rack. Since its still early in the game and balls arn't spread I would like my chances with this shot.

If I were to simply creep in behind the 10 ball after contacting the 5 I believe my opponent would thin off the 10 ball and leave me in an udesirable position with the 10 still near his hole. In these situations I prefer attempting to remove the opponents ball from his pocket area when it's still early in the game and I'm in no danger of him running multiple balls.
 

blackeee

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chicagomike said:
Senor,
I tend to agree with Doc. It just seems as if to kick-bank the 10 ball looks near impossible based on the diagram layout. I agree with you that it is a textbook shot for advanced players, but in this particular case the shot doesn't look possible.

I like cutting the 5 ball and caroming 2 rails into the 10 ball with medium speed. The only concern would be getting the 5 ball high enough as to neutralized the return bank in the event the cue ball remains under the rack. Since its still early in the game and balls arn't spread I would like my chances with this shot.

If I were to simply creep in behind the 10 ball after contacting the 5 I believe my opponent would thin off the 10 ball and leave me in an udesirable position with the 10 still near his hole. In these situations I prefer attempting to remove the opponents ball from his pocket area when it's still early in the game and I'm in no danger of him running multiple balls.

I think that's an excellent analaysis Mike.
 

gbru

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senor said:
Okay, let's pretend the five ball isn't there, or that it is frozen to the rail. The situation is much, much tougher now because you can't easily slide off the five ball and try to nit your way behind the ten ball.

I was surprised noone mentioned the shot because it's a fairly normal break response. Obviously, in the given situation, more often than not I would slide off the five ball and nit my way behind the ten :)

And in all honesty, I was surprised by your response. Regardless of your playing ability, it seems like you've been around long enough to know that above average one pocket players can execute this shot if the situation calls for it. You say it's a sell out 9 out of 10 times...I say let me play that guy who can't execute the shot.
Senor........I agree with Doc and Mike..............That is a particularly difficult shot to execute.

However............ I know the one you are talking about and it is an excellent return brake shot. In this situation though, the cue ball would have to be down table another 1/2 diamond. That way you could hit it without using masse'.



I know a lot of people can use masse' better than me and I do fairly well with it but.......................massse' often leaves you hanging-out to dry...... as Doc implied.



In the book "winning one Pocket" there is an excellent section describing and explainig the diamond system. It goes into detail about kicking and banking. In particular it explains the process of mirror kicking, in which you mirror the distance required to hit a ball by hitting the rail behind it the same distance from inside of the rail. It is explained a lot better in the book but............what I am trying to say is that with the diamond system the kicking methods become very, very accurate. If you could follow the "letter of the law" as calculated in some of these books like "banking with the Beard" and "winning one pocket" I'm sure the accuracy level would be close to 90%. That also means that you could look at that shot and calculate whether it could be hit without masse' or not. In which case if it couldn't............ then that shot would probably be put on the back burner.



Anyway, I agree with both Doc and Mike.



However, I still contend that caroming off the 5 and two-railing behind the 10with enough speed to kick it away is the best shot because:



1. It puts the 5 in a better position for me;

2. it stops him from a bank on the 5;

3. it removes the 10 as a threat;

4. it can be "better than" fairly, safely executed because the 10 is close enough to the rail to allow for a nearly safe removal. You would really have to hit way too far behind the 10 to sell out.



In other words, for me the risk rewards are there.
And that is what this game is all about, to me.

But for someone else they may not see it that way.



Happy shooting................Mobile george
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Sorry guys, but you can all pay me off now....

I just shot the 14-8-12-9 off of the 4 into the 5, 5 into my pocket, dead carom combination, and ran 8 and out....:eek: :eek: :eek:..:cool:
 

SJDinPHX

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Some people are dreamer's....

Some people are dreamer's....

One Pocket Ghost said:
Sorry guys, but you can all pay me off now....

I just shot the 14-8-12-9 off of the 4 into the 5, 5 into my pocket, dead carom combination, and ran 8 and out....:eek: ..:cool:
8 AND OUT !!! C'mon Ghost, you are NOT allowed ball-in-hand after each shot, for cryin' out loud, play fair ! :rolleyes:

Dick <-----could not run 8 and out WITH B.I.H. :eek:
 

senor

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Sometimes I get in the mood to contribute and post, and then after I post I realize why I don't that often. I would really have to write a book in order to expain myself correctly, and it doesn't seem worth it.

Yes, I know, according to diagram the kick bank looks tough, but it's a drawing :rolleyes: My point is it's a normal return shot in this overall situation, and might be preferred depending on how the open balls (5, 10 & 1) actually lay.
 

gbru

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:)
senor said:
Sometimes I get in the mood to contribute and post, and then after I post I realize why I don't that often. I would really have to write a book in order to expain myself correctly, and it doesn't seem worth it.

Yes, I know, according to diagram the kick bank looks tough, but it's a drawing :rolleyes: My point is it's a normal return shot in this overall situation, and might be preferred depending on how the open balls (5, 10 & 1) actually lay.
Senor...... I often feel the same way about posting.

I am such a prefectionist that I often take the WEI diagram too serious. But it is an excellent way to illustrate situations.

After I finished my reply to your shot I went back and looked at some of your earlier posts and concluded that I was too critical of your suggested shot. Afterall, it is a viable shot and I know some carom shooters can do a lot more than I can with the cue ball and with a lot more control. (I had missed your earlier comment on the Joyner shot where he follows the cue forward to pocket the 6 ball rather than caroming it out with the 1 ball.) Very interesting.

Anyway, I set the shot in question up on my table and concluded that it was easier for me to carom off the 5 and bank the 10 to my pocket rather than using masse'. But....... I still think it is a too agressive given the other options. But thanks for making me think deeper.

Also: This posting sure takes alot of time from my practice. I normally just read other people's comments and leave the posting to Ghost, Dick and all the others.

Nice site though!

Mobile-----george
 

chicagomike

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senor said:
Sometimes I get in the mood to contribute and post, and then after I post I realize why I don't that often. I would really have to write a book in order to expain myself correctly, and it doesn't seem worth it.

Yes, I know, according to diagram the kick bank looks tough, but it's a drawing :rolleyes: My point is it's a normal return shot in this overall situation, and might be preferred depending on how the open balls (5, 10 & 1) actually lay.
Senor,
I'm not trying to bash your thoughts, it's just that sometimes those who position the balls in these diagrams do so with some specific intention in mind. I also seem to stretch the reality of what may be possible given a specific diagram, but it's still a learning experience either way.

We all appreciate your input.
 

gbru

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choice

choice

:D
One Pocket Ghost said:
Hey........Nobody wants to comment on my 5 ball combination/carom shot ?......:D

- Ghost
Hey Ghost! Yea! I saw that shot also......... If I'm not mistaken it was my choice #22!.......... there about.
 

SJDinPHX

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senor said:
I know noone is trying to bash - it's tough to relay thoughts in writing - this is a great site and I'm glad it has seen an increase in posters.

Here's another shot I felt confident shooting, but would probably only shoot it if the 5 were not bankable on a return shot.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AYBo4BDmx3CHet3DAVM4ELwj3FEtr4GBjO4HAcx3IAMl3JXXr4KEdR3LBCQ3MDvO4NBah3ODee4PWOO3eXXr3eTQe4kWOO1kFli3kYVd3kbJo3kWKb@
Sorry Senor, but I would not get up out of the electric chair to shoot that shot, no matter where the 5 was. (no bashing intended) Too many other options.

Dick <----Hates risky shots with poor odds of success. :rolleyes:
 
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lll

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senor , with the 10 ball off the rail would you not try to come off the long rail ( short rail to side rail)to end up in the same position. the 10 in that position is a bigger ball as i understand it . to hit it directly from the short rail if you are alittle off you hit the 10 towards his pocket and the q ball on the other side of where you want it. no?
 

senor

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SJDinPHX said:
Sorry Senor, but I would not get up out of the electric chair to shoot that shot, no matter where the 5 was. (no bashing intended) Too many other options.

Dick <----Hates risky shots with poor odds of success. :rolleyes:
Good! At least I found one thing I might do better than you at the pool table :rolleyes: I think it's fair to say I prolly can't out shoot you or outmove you and definitely can't out talk you. Maybe I can have that little morsel of satisfaction that I can outkick you! ;)

All kidding aside SJD, I look at the shot as having poor odds of selling out (if I am shooting it, of course). Let's pretend we're just practicing and farting around at the pool table. Place the cue ball where it is or where it would normally end up after the break shot. Do you think you can one rail kick the cue ball the long way and intentionally pocket the cue ball? I think I can, and I think I could do it with a high level of success. So, using that line of thinking for our situation, if the ten ball lies right in the path of the cue ball if I were to try to pocket the cue ball, it turns into an easier shot. It justs depends on how you think of it.

Once again, I know there are too many other options, it's just a response that is available, and in some instances if the balls lay a little differently may be preferred. Then again, maybe my shot selection is why I got so much action there for a while :rolleyes:
 
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