The Invisible Line

[Nick B]

The problem is that 80% of all prayers simply don't know or assume the way they have been told (or accepted norm in a hall). Example miscue. 95% of them result in ferrule contact. Is it ever called. Nope. Do I call it nope. Many have been taught that if I jack up way high it can't happen. Well it can and does.

 

[gulfportdoc]

I can not agree with this; 'in which What constitutes a foul in this situation'. respectfully sorry!
You can as an acting referee ask of the players which general rules they are playing by. But even then, there is absolutely no difference in general rules of major rule making bodies, for all they have the same rule; 'a double hit is a foul', and everyone knows that.
...

These guys were playing a private match, not a tournament. As you know, guys play all kind of different rules when they're playing heads up for cash. If one of them asks me to make a call, and I accept, I want to know what rules they've agreed to. Or ask them if they're playing standard rules. If they're playing standard rules then I'd make the call based upon that criteria.

I've TD'd lots of tournaments, and made dozens of calls based upon standard, 1po.org rules. But that was in tournament play.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Jr's statement: My question is twofold. First, am I in error for stating to the shooter and opponent that it will be a foul if it goes past a particular (invisible) line? Second, does my statement constitute advice which would not be permitted by a referee?

My Answer:
1. Yes you are in error, for there is no rule in any governing rule making bodies that applies. If in fact the establishment plays this way then yes it would be a rule, but if you have to tell the players then I think it is not the way they play there, and the players are not that familiar with this rule.

2. Yes, any referee will tell you that their basic rule guidelines that they must follow, is first and utmost basic 101 rule; is that there is absolutely no coaching allowed.
But their # 2 rule is if asked; then they must reply. If you were asked by a player in this scenario what constitutes a foul if I shoot this shot then you have to reply. You then are allowed to only explain what constitutes a foul, but there can be no instruction on how to shoot the shot.
If he asks, it then puts the situation directly upon the shooter.
Shooters, especially in league play should know their rights when it pertains to referees. If a scenario comes up you are unsure of then of course ask your referee before executing the shot. He is not going to tell ahead of time that if this happens I am calling a foul.

There are 2 types of double hit fouls: 1. when the cue re-contacts the cue ball, and when the ob re-contacts the cue.
But there are two different sounds:
1. the double click, that happens when you are shooting more directly towards the ob, for the ob holds the cb in place and then the cue re-contacts it and forces it back into the ob which creates the double click sound. This scenario could result in the cb going forward at near speed of the ob, or not.
2. the click / thud, this happens when the cb is being stroked into an ob ball on an angle but not enough angle in relation to the separation of the cb and the ob. The thud sound you hear is the cue re-contacting the cue ball. This would be a push shot scenario in which could be also judged by the cb going through/inside of the tangent line.
Now, combine this with the use of draw vs. follow / the invisible line foul criteria of close proximity shots, and now you have a very lot of detailed explaining to do to these combatants. Also there are a few different push shot scenarios, one being a push stroke, plus you would have to explain going through the tangent line which is very important in deciphering a foul.
Also in my writing of the Close Proximity Shot Foul Criteria I have a miscue as being a foul. The reason being if you are willing to take on this shot then it of course is very demanding, so you can fudge it very easy by intentionally miscuing these shots and still make the ob. Nik points this out about miscues as the cue and ob coming back into contact. Usually a miscue is only a foul when in fact the cb jumps over an ob.

So there is way more to judging a double hit/push shot than just the invisible line.

This notion of you should of asked what rules they are playing by, kind of confuses your questions.

Now if the cb and the ob are frozen to the same cushion and you need to make a legal shot, it then would be proper to ask what rules they are playing by, for wpa and bcapl have different rulings applied to this scenario.
But a basic double hit foul, there is absolutely no difference, and there has been absolutely no difference for more decades than we are old. Whitey

 

[J.R.]

Jr's statement: My question is twofold. First, am I in error for stating to the shooter and opponent that it will be a foul if it goes past a particular (invisible) line? Second, does my statement constitute advice which would not be permitted by a referee?

My Answer:
1. Yes you are in error, for there is no rule in any governing rule making bodies that applies. If in fact the establishment plays this way then yes it would be a rule, but if you have to tell the players then I think it is not the way they play there, and the players are not that familiar with this rule.

2. Yes, any referee will tell you that their basic rule guidelines that they must follow, is first and utmost basic 101 rule; is that there is absolutely no coaching allowed.
But their # 2 rule is if asked; then they must reply. If you were asked by a player in this scenario what constitutes a foul if I shoot this shot then you have to reply. You then are allowed to only explain what constitutes a foul, but there can be no instruction on how to shoot the shot.
If he asks, it then puts the situation directly upon the shooter.
Shooters, especially in league play should know their rights when it pertains to referees. If a scenario comes up you are unsure of then of course ask your referee before executing the shot. He is not going to tell ahead of time that if this happens I am calling a foul.

There are 2 types of double hit fouls: 1. when the cue re-contacts the cue ball, and when the ob re-contacts the cue.
But there are two different sounds:
1. the double click, that happens when you are shooting more directly towards the ob, for the ob holds the cb in place and then the cue re-contacts it and forces it back into the ob which creates the double click sound. This scenario could result in the cb going forward at near speed of the ob, or not.
2. the click / thud, this happens when the cb is being stroked into an ob ball on an angle but not enough angle in relation to the separation of the cb and the ob. The thud sound you hear is the cue re-contacting the cue ball. This would be a push shot scenario in which could be also judged by the cb going through/inside of the tangent line.
Now, combine this with the use of draw vs. follow / the invisible line foul criteria of close proximity shots, and now you have a very lot of detailed explaining to do to these combatants. Also there are a few different push shot scenarios, one being a push stroke, plus you would have to explain going through the tangent line which is very important in deciphering a foul.
Also in my writing of the Close Proximity Shot Foul Criteria I have a miscue as being a foul. The reason being if you are willing to take on this shot then it of course is very demanding, so you can fudge it very easy by intentionally miscuing these shots and still make the ob. Nik points this out about miscues as the cue and ob coming back into contact. Usually a miscue is only a foul when in fact the cb jumps over an ob.

So there is way more to judging a double hit/push shot than just the invisible line.

This notion of you should of asked what rules they are playing by, kind of confuses your questions.

Now if the cb and the ob are frozen to the same cushion and you need to make a legal shot, it then would be proper to ask what rules they are playing by, for wpa and bcapl have different rulings applied to this scenario.
But a basic double hit foul, there is absolutely no difference, and there has been absolutely no difference for more decades than we are old. Whitey

 

[J.R.]

Whitey, thank you for going into a detailed answer to both of my questions. Consequently, I will stand mute the next time I am requested to call a good hit or a bad hit. Also thank you to all the members that responded with your posts regarding my referee dilemma in reference to the invisible line.

What is puzzling to me, still (hard-headed), is my one statement to the shooter and to the opponent, (it) was not subjective but objective. In other words, I did not provide a subjective instruction (you can shoot it this way) or a subjective opinion (you probably will foul on this shot) or did anything subjective that would cause the shooter to change his mind about shooting the shot. Yet the opponent argued that by saying anything might cause the shooter to change his shot even if it was objective. My retort is that the shooter's frame of mind is twisted the moment his opponent requests a referee which can be construed as a powerful subjective opinion by the opponent that there is a chance of fouling if the shooter proceeds with the shot he has selected.

Nevertheless, I will not belabor the point... I will stand mute the next time I am requested to call a good hit or a bad hit. Henceforth, I am now a professional referee and I will expect a payment of $1.00 for each good hit or bad hit request.

 

[cincy_kid]

When you agree to referee a shot, most of the time the player who doesn't get the call in their favor will be upset unless the call was obvious so its hard to win in the situation. I probably wouldn't have said anything beforehand but I do see the merit in doing so...

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey, thank you for going into a detailed answer to both of my questions. Consequently, I will stand mute the next time I am requested to call a good hit or a bad hit. Also thank you to all the members that responded with your posts regarding my referee dilemma in reference to the invisible line.

What is puzzling to me, still (hard-headed), is my one statement to the shooter and to the opponent, (it) was not subjective but objective. In other words, I did not provide a subjective instruction (you can shoot it this way) or a subjective opinion (you probably will foul on this shot) or did anything subjective that would cause the shooter to change his mind about shooting the shot. Yet the opponent argued that by saying anything might cause the shooter to change his shot even if it was objective. My retort is that the shooter's frame of mind is twisted the moment his opponent requests a referee which can be construed as a powerful subjective opinion by the opponent that there is a chance of fouling if the shooter proceeds with the shot he has selected.

Nevertheless, I will not belabor the point... I will stand mute the next time I am requested to call a good hit or a bad hit. Henceforth, I am now a professional referee and I will expect a payment of $1.00 for each good hit or bad hit request.

J.R. you are obviously a great guy and knowledgeable, and that is why you were asked to judge the shot in the first place, and that is a good feeling acknowledgement. But it can be a very treacherous situation to be in, for it can be a no win situation. And a lot of it depends on the knowledge of the players as Bob Jewett points out.
I play in bcapl league play in town and these close proximity shots and calls come up all the time. Another one is split hits. I would not beat myself up to much on this.

There is another point I forgot to mention in judging this shot. The invisible line can be compromised. Meaning, with 1" gap the cb if legally stroked to jump into the object ball then it can legally go past the invisible line. Of course elevating the cue on this shot makes some players think it is going to make the shot legal, but only if legally stroked and no foul occurs, for it can obviously still be pushed. Whitey

 

[Island Drive]

I reffed a two hundred player 8 ball event.

167 men tourney, and about 46 women, two separate events same location, only had One argument and one other confrontation.

I watched the shot, the guy fouled, I called foul....the man wanted to argue, I smiled....picked up the cue ball, handed it too his opponent and walked away.

I also had another Very experienced player shoot a similar shot but not a BIH back to the other player foul.

Before I got to the event... I'd read the BCA rule book 4 times and outlined in yellow....areas I Knew might be a problem.

This very good player tried to argue when he fouled, I told em to sit down and I walked away.

After that match I handed the good player the rule book.

I said turn to page 87 and read it. He did, he handed me back the book and said ''I didn't know that''. I smiled back, and kept on doin' my job.

If I was in your situation....and I called foul....that would of been the end of it.

 

[Miller]

When you agree to referee a shot, most of the time the player who doesn't get the call in their favor will be upset unless the call was obvious so its hard to win in the situation. I probably wouldn't have said anything beforehand but I do see the merit in doing so...

probably not applicable to JRs particular situation here....but the best way I have seen to make a call is what evelyn dysart does: she makes the call (i don't think she says anything if its a good hit) then makes a bee line back to the tourney desk - and that's the end of it.

 

[Miller]

probably not applicable to JRs particular situation here....but the best way I have seen to make a call is what evelyn dysart does: she makes the call (i don't think she says anything if its a good hit) then makes a bee line back to the tourney desk - and that's the end of it.

several yrs ago (pretty sure i was chilln with ghost and nh steve) at DCC watched a late round match between harriman and bustamante. anyway, an official was called over from the desk to call a hit. harriman didn't agree with the call and objected - the official explained himself (attempted to) which just made it worse and danny was pretty much all over everything he said.

 

[Bob Jewett]

several yrs ago (pretty sure i was chilln with ghost and nh steve) at DCC watched a late round match between harriman and bustamante. anyway, an official was called over from the desk to call a hit. harriman didn't agree with the call and objected - the official explained himself (attempted to) which just made it worse and danny was pretty much all over everything he said.

I think in the international carom tournaments you are allowed one request for a ref to reconsider the call. Then you stay silent.

 

[beatle]

hgfds

 

[Island Drive]

cash games are different. if doing a call and its stupid to do one, as one of the players is always going to be mad at you and you get no reward for it.
but if you do, you need to clarify how your call will go and have them agree to it. and your call is final. after all they asked you to intervene. you make the call on your terms or dont do it.

Yeah, but before you make the call you should ''look at both players in the face'' and tell em....once I make my call, there will be NO further discussion and play will resume...."Right''.

Get both the monkeys to nod their heads in approval at the same time/move on, shoot the shot/make the call and continue play.

 

[catkins]

I guess one way to do it without couching would be to request the two player interpretation of what would be a foul before judging the hit

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

We have also had a thread some time ago relating to shooting over a ball, and many thought it was a foul to contact the ball you are shooting over, and I think it was based upon the ball moving forward (?), and they play that way! Correct if I am wrong. I believe this to be a house rule.
Well anyway at least in the realm of OP.org many members consider this a foul, so that is another aspect of judging this shot.

In bcapl regional tournaments when a ref is called they may ask what shot you are shooting, since they have not been watching the table, especially in 8 ball. Then they position themselves in the proper position to best view the shot, they make the call.
The player then has the right to ask the ref what is the basis for their call. If the player feels the ref made an incorrect call the player can state his case, and if there is not an agreement then if the player feels it was still an incorrect call then they can summons a head ref or another ref. to further discuss the ruling.

I witnssed a WCC event and to pros were vying for the hot seat, and player 1. was somewhat hooked and thus elevated his cue and jumped, well the impeding illegal ball moved on the jump, and player 2. called a foul. But, Player 1 stated; "it moved because I hit it with my stick". Which would not be a foul normally but not a jump ball, but he was lying anyway.
A ref was called and of course it was after the fact. He weighed the info and ruled for player 1.

Well the ref. totally missed this call, for the ruling is; if you jump over an impeding illegal ball and it moves for any reason then it is a foul.
Obviously Player 1 knew the rule and that is why he lied, and player 2 perhaps did not know the rule and stated his case as he seen it, the impeding illegal ball moved so it was a foul. He obviously seen the cb hit the illegal ob as did all the spectators.
The ref could of reviewed the video, but did not. Player 2 could of ask for that, and/or ask for another ref. Well it cost him the match and the cheater won.
I have had this trick pulled on me 4 times. I wrote up a rule that would eliminate this loop hole within the rule, "of simply stating I moved it with my stick" but bcapl would not adopt it.

A case where you needed to know the rules and the rules that govern referees.

I wish now I would of yelled out; "ref he jumped over the ball and it moved, foul, everyone knows it! The ref. has the right to interview spectators if he can get a clear picture of the events from the players, and the ref. has the right to review the video.

All what I have mentioned is relevant for the US Open goes by these rules. Whitey

 

[beatle]

ytdrs

 

[Nick B]

I guess one way to do it without couching would be to request the two player interpretation of what would be a foul before judging the hit

There is a little bit of gold in that statement. I like it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I guess one way to do it without couching would be to request the two player interpretation of what would be a foul before judging the hit

I think that's an excellent idea. It's similar to asking them what rule set they are playing by but less likely to get blank stares. Also, it gives you a chance to say, "No, I never play that way. I wouldn't be any good at calling the shot," in case they use one of the strange rules.