*** So Here WE Go Again ***

SloMoHolic

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*** So Here WE Go Again ***

Not that I am pointing out anything people haven't noticed already, but I still find it amazing that ob stays on the rail that long. I took a couple of screen shots. You can see the cb in contact with the ob a such a severe angle relative to that rail. That still amazes me. Then, the ob hugs the rail for quite a while. Who would have thought?

My guess: the gutter probably helps. We could actually see if the gutter helped this effect by trying the shot on a new table without a prominent gutter (not a request, just a note :)).

At this point though, I am thinking the major contributor is the length of the contact between the ob and cb in this special case. Think about it, if 2 balls collide out in the middle of the table, it is going to be a relatively short collision. Here, the cb hits the rail, then hits the ob, THE OB THEN WANTS TO GO OUT AWAY FROM THE CUSHION, but it can't because the cb is sitting there on top of it, so it has a tendency to stick to the rail more than it should. Look at the forces as "vectors" if you will in the below image. There will be a certain amount of energy that the ob wants to go straight away from that rail, at a perpendicular angle to the rail, but the cb would have it "trapped" there, impeding that force. This would affect cb direction too, but I don't even want to think about that to be honest lol. Ok, I admit maybe all that is wrong, but it was my best shot :)

Edit: how do I make it so both pics show up? I'll just post the second one in a new post for now.....
That's what I was thinking. It looks like the contact point would send the OB into the rail and bank it right out of the pocket!

And the inside spin "should" throw it even more into the cushion.

The only explanation I can come up with is collision induced throw. As the object ball leaves the rail, it has to be throwing the OB away from the rail, quite a bit.

In the Jersey Red shot, you can see a similar reaction. The balls don't line up for the pocket, but the OB goes in anyway.

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that the CB could possibly throw the OB "that" much away from the rail, so that it ends up rolling (almost) straight down the rail.

Does anyone else have a better explanation? I'm not being facetious, just trying to wrap my head around this...

Thanks again for everybody's input!

-Blake
 

SloMoHolic

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*** So Here WE Go Again ***

Tyler; What position are the stills from, 1,2 or 3?

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
That screenshot is from the opening sequence, which is from position #1. It's actually the same exact clip that is shown for #1 later in the video, but I slowed down the footage by a factor of four for the intro.

The video speed shown in this intro is shot at 240 frames per second, but when I edited the intro, I set it to play each "frame" four times, which is why you can see a little "stagger" in the clip. So basically, the resulting video speed is equivalent to 960 frames per second, or in other words, 32 times slower than real time.

As Tyler mentioned, the difference between the contact angle versus the final OB resulting path is astounding. Truly mind-blowing. I almost can't hardly believe that the OB actually rolled down the rail and into the pocket like that, after seeing such an off-angle hit.

I am aware of throw, but wow, that's like 30 degrees (or more) of throw. These balls just came out of the Diamond ball polisher a few days ago, so it's not like they're terribly dirty.

What is going on with this shot? Really!

Hopefully, I'll get some true 1000 fps video of this soon. The pixel resolution will be much lower, but it should show us much more detail. I'm hoping to get it done this weekend. That might show us more precision on the actual contact point. I hope so, or I'll be losing sleep at night thinking about this. :)

I'm really intrigued by this.

Thanks again, everybody!

And thanks, Bill, for your inspiration to film this in SloMo!

-Blake
 

SloMoHolic

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*** So Here WE Go Again ***

My guess: the gutter probably helps. We could actually see if the gutter helped this effect by trying the shot on a new table without a prominent gutter (not a request, just a note :)).
No offense taken. This cloth is pretty old, and I've been wanting to replace it.

However, I just can't imagine that the gutter could hold that OB in like that, especially when it's hit at that speed.

In the double-kiss bank video and the Jersey Red shot video (links below), you can clearly see that the OB has some vertical spin after the second kiss, which alters its path during the first few inches of travel. It isn't as obvious in this rail shot, though. But if you look really closely, I think you can see the 3 ball rotating for a few frames before it starts its natural roll.

Seriously, this stuff is exactly why I got into slow motion video to begin with. I want to know what the heck is really happening!

:)

-Blake



LINKS:

Double-Kiss bank video:
(Pay attention to the soon on the OB as it comes off the second kiss)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nynhaxh6dtI[/ame]

Jersey Red shot video:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLNlohPh37I[/ame]
 

tylerdurden

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No offense taken. This cloth is pretty old, and I've been wanting to replace it.

However, I just can't imagine that the gutter could hold that OB in like that, especially when it's hit at that speed.

In the double-kiss bank video and the Jersey Red shot video (links below), you can clearly see that the OB has some vertical spin after the second kiss, which alters its path during the first few inches of travel. It isn't as obvious in this rail shot, though. But if you look really closely, I think you can see the 3 ball rotating for a few frames before it starts its natural roll.

Seriously, this stuff is exactly why I got into slow motion video to begin with. I want to know what the heck is really happening!

:)

-Blake



LINKS:

Double-Kiss bank video:
(Pay attention to the soon on the OB as it comes off the second kiss)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nynhaxh6dtI

Jersey Red shot video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLNlohPh37I
I don't think the gutter is a major factor either. To put it more simply, I think when the cb hits the ob from that angle, the ob wants to rebound away from the cushion, but the cb is still right there still stuck to it, pushing it in the opposite direction (ie back towards the rail). The cb kind of pinches it in there perhaps. So, it tends to deviate from its true path. This seems a possible explanation to me because since the ball is frozen there should be an IMMEDIATE movement back out (toward the middle of the table) from the ob, yet the cb is still in contact with the it - so you get the deviation. That is just my guess.
 
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onepocket926

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I don't think the gutter is a major factor either. To put it more simply, I think when the cb hits the ob from that angle, the ob wants to rebound away from the cushion, but the cb is still right there still stuck to it, pushing it in the opposite direction (ie back towards the rail). The cb kind of pinches it in there perhaps. So, it tends to deviate from its true path. This seems a possible explanation to me because since the ball is frozen there should be an IMMEDIATE movement back out (toward the middle of the table) from the ob, yet the cb is still in contact with the it - so you get the deviation. That is just my guess.

....shhhhh !!!!!!!!....Mr.Think-I-know-it-all gonna is call you stupid......and try to make it sound like a compliment.....

...read post #32

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7852&page=4
 
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lll

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could there be a double kiss we dont see??
just askin
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I certainly don't claim to know why the object ball can be hit & made like this but I think one important thing hasn't been mentioned yet by anyone: Almost none of the cueball's "weight" is hitting the object ball. I think that plays a role.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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If you don't believe what I've done, then don't waste your time viewing this thread or replying to it, you have your opinion and I KNOW what I did!

Once again, You're trying to disprove what I've said can be done. I have an idea, why don't you post a video claiming you can make the shot from positions 2 and 3 hitting RAIL FIRST! I know I'd like to learn how to do it! Now, don't forget ALL the camera views and slomo camera work that you required of me!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
I'm going to post a video of me shooting a spot-shot. After I strike the cueball I'm going to jump up and touch the moon before the cueball hits the object ball.

I'm going to do it so fast that you won't be able to see it. Trust me though, I know what I did and that's all that's important. Just take my word, after all, I can have friends testify that I used to play good 40 years ago so that should prove I touched the moon, just trust me.

This is the same thing you proposed.

Cowboy Dennis...Mr Anti BS
 

mr3cushion

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I'm going to post a video of me shooting a spot-shot. After I strike the cueball I'm going to jump up and touch the moon before the cueball hits the object ball.

I'm going to do it so fast that you won't be able to see it. Trust me though, I know what I did and that's all that's important. Just take my word, after all, I can have friends testify that I used to play good 40 years ago so that should prove I touched the moon, just trust me.

This is the same thing you proposed.

Cowboy Dennis...Mr Anti BS
Now see, there you go again, WASTING your time, when you could be doing some painting and plumbing! :frus:frus:frus

Of course you could just put me on ignore if YOU don't care for my threads and posts, sounds simple to me!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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Now see, there you go again, WASTING your time, when you could be doing some painting and plumbing! :frus:frus:frus

Of course you could just put me on ignore if YOU don't care for my threads and posts, sounds simple to me!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
mr3cushion said:
I want to make it PERFECTLY clear, "I'm hitting the BALL FIRST" on this shot.
This is what you claimed (in part) in your first thread with video. You have not made it "perfectly clear" and in fact you label as knockers, haters and losers anybody who questions your claim. You claim you want to teach but have taught nothing.

Even your homeboys don't chime in and back your claim and no good players have backed your claim up either.

Don't look now but you have become the sad, lonely, miserable old man clinging to the past. A person you profess to hate.

Gotta go now, on my way to the poolroom with my girlfriend and then to dinner. Have a nice night.

Dennis
 

mr3cushion

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This is what you claimed (in part) in your first thread with video. You have not made it "perfectly clear" and in fact you label as knockers, haters and losers anybody who questions your claim. You claim you want to teach but have taught nothing.

Even your homeboys don't chime in and back your claim and no good players have backed your claim up either.

Don't look now but you have become the sad, lonely, miserable old man clinging to the past. A person you profess to hate.

Gotta go now, on my way to the poolroom with my girlfriend and then to dinner. Have a nice night.

Dennis
Girlfriend, When did all this happen, I don't know, something smells FISHY here! ;)

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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Girlfriend, When did all this happen, I don't know, something smells FISHY here! ;)

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Yes, but it tastes like chicken.

I guess this is the way you gracefully bow out of your idiotic argument claiming the cueball hit the object ball 1st eh?

Cowboy "will let it drop if you do" Dennis
 

John Brumback

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That's what surprised me the most about these shots. It looks like I cut the ball 30 degrees into the rail, but the OB comes out "maybe" 10 degrees, and into the pocket. Amazing.

The only explanations I can come up with is collision-induced throw (which would seem to work against this) or collision-induced spin.

Maybe spin-induced throw?

Still, I don't know what to say. I don't know exactly how that ball made it to the hole!!!

-Blake
I could be way off but I wonder if the two tables used in the vids have what I call "soft rubber" "and or soft rails" ? Looks like to me the two tables play very soft and or easy. I'm just thinking out loud but I wonder if you shot these shots on a Diamond,would the ob still dribble across the rail and still go in?? I'm thinking maybe not. I think on a Diamond,the ob might not react in that manner (more springy rubber on a Diamond).But I could be wrong.At any rate, it's very cool to get to see this stuff in SLO-MO Thanks Slo-Mo Blake:) John B.
 

wincardona

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I could be way off but I wonder if the two tables used in the vids have what I call "soft rubber" "and or soft rails" ? Looks like to me the two tables play very soft and or easy. I'm just thinking out loud but I wonder if you shot these shots on a Diamond,would the ob still dribble across the rail and still go in?? I'm thinking maybe not. I think on a Diamond,the ob might not react in that manner (more springy rubber on a Diamond).But I could be wrong.At any rate, it's very cool to get to see this stuff in SLO-MO Thanks Slo-Mo Blake:) John B.
Thanks John, that's an excellent observation. With softer rails your "sweet spot" is expanded, which in turn will allow the pocket to play easier. Also rails become more difficult to play on when there's moisture in the air, which would also create a less forgiving rail.

Dr. Bill
 

John Brumback

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Thanks John, that's an excellent observation. With softer rails your "sweet spot" is expanded, which in turn will allow the pocket to play easier. Also rails become more difficult to play on when there's moisture in the air, which would also create a less forgiving rail.

Dr. Bill
Oh your very welcome,Sir and thank you. You play on a Diamond too,don't you???:p. JB

PS: if it's raining and or humid.....:eek::lol
 

SloMoHolic

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*** So Here WE Go Again ***

I could be way off but I wonder if the two tables used in the vids have what I call "soft rubber" "and or soft rails" ? Looks like to me the two tables play very soft and or easy. I'm just thinking out loud but I wonder if you shot these shots on a Diamond,would the ob still dribble across the rail and still go in?? I'm thinking maybe not. I think on a Diamond,the ob might not react in that manner (more springy rubber on a Diamond).But I could be wrong.At any rate, it's very cool to get to see this stuff in SLO-MO Thanks Slo-Mo Blake:) John B.
Thanks, John. I'm glad you enjoyed the videos.

All of my pool videos are indeed shot on my 9' Diamond Pro, which has the Red label rails. In general, it banks much shorter than other tables. Then again, it's possible that my rails have softened a bit with age (I purchased the table in 2005).

I agree with your comment though. I would think you could make this shot from even further back on a table with softer rails. I'll try it on some Gold Crowns next time I get a chance.

Thanks again,

-Blake
 
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