Smartest Onepocket Player In Life

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis,

I like the baseball analogy somebody brought up. A guy like Roger Clemens relied 100% on his stuff when he was in his prime. He was cocky, would even throw at people and let people steal second and think nothing of it (because he knew he'd get the guy at the plate). Yet, when the stuff "degrades," they all turn into the crafty veterans to put the zeros up.

I guess billy's point about seeing if he plays smarter when his talent degrades significantly (now??) will be the most telling evidence. I personally think we may see efren "retire" kinda early, but in any event it will be interesting to see. But yes, I think we have all witnessed him shoot some funky shots. I tend to feel his biggest weakness is his patience.

But for me, the big picture is one in which his shot selection and general overall strategy has been nothing short of brilliant over his career. No reason to think this will change with declining ability, but we'll see.

Best.

TD,

I guess this acknowledges that Efren has room to play smarter? I like the baseball analogy, also being a baseball fan. Many times a young fire-throwing pitcher relies on his fastball but after all the players get used to timing it it doesn't work anymore. All that tells me is that the guy wasn't taught to pitch properly in little league, college, minor leagues nor the majors either.

Although many pitchers do become more "crafty" as they age and lose their fastball, and some also change because of injury, what they change into is the pitcher they should have been all along and had inside of them to become. It's wasted talent to me and I hate it when I see it probably because I had no physical talent for the game (pool) whatsoever. I felt the way Brooks Robinson felt about hitting.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

I don't think so...

I don't think so...

Of course you played many top liners. The unsaid so far, truth, was that you and I were most likely regarded as famous "suckers" due to the ease that we would match up for large cash, but that didnt always follow the prescribed formula and we miraculously shit out once in awhile. .............I never believed in miracle's, just like Cowboy Dennis don't believe in luck !!!

Beard

Back off a second there Beardman....I hope I'm allowed to take a little offense too ?...'Cause now your ruffling MY feathers a bit...If that was your "modus operandi" what gives you the right to say it was mine ?

There are plenty of people to attest to the fact, that I defended my home turf pretty well, in San Jose, S.F, Dallas, Houston and Shreveport and Phoenix, when I lived in those places...and also did a pretty fair amount of crossroading too. (You know, back when it was REALLY crossroading !!)

I was like you, in that I was never a nuthunter, and liked to bet all I could, whenever, and whoever, I played...So I'm not saying I didn't book some pretty fair loser's along the way. But I'll put my W/L percentage, up against anybody who saw as much action as I did. (except maybe A.B. and B.I., and a few others.)

I have only become a bonified "sucker" these past few years, because the bottom has dropped out, and I was having a hard time facing it.
I finally realize I am done now...My eyes and nerves are shot, and I don't even "think" a good game any more...I've always been a firm believer, that if you are playing bad, you are usually thinking bad..Seems I am proving that point..

That being said, I hope you enjoy your "Golden Years" better than I have, of late... But it was a ball while it lasted..Some of us get old at 70, and some, bless 'em at 90..I ain't gonna squawk at getting close to 80... ('specially, being as I didn't mature until 40)

PS..I think you sound like you believe R.A's "Audio Tales" about the first time he and Richie, came to San Jose..I guess you've never noticed his propensity to exagerate, in ALL his stories...One of these days, if we ever get together (the 3 of us, or maybe with John H.)...I will get enough booze in him, to make him tell what really happened on their first few trips to S.J.....It took them more than one trip, and a succesion of stakehorses, to get even close, to even...End of rant...:frus

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Hmmmmm.... Thank you Ghoatsy....Very sportsmanlike of you to acknowledge that fact...

PS..Larry, give him a cookie for that, please !!!

As I've told/warned you before Papie....As you well know, I am the one who thought up, invented, patented, and copyrighted the onepocket.org comedy device of editing/changing other peoples posts....so please cease and desist from using my comedy device, or you'll be hearing from my lawyers.....


Mr. Geaust


PS, How's things going with your new housemate and 'special friend', the caveman...

I hope the "Smartest One Pocket Player" remembers to get his flu shot this year.

Blowing a little cash to me would be better than being holed up in the room all week.

John, as long as it wasn't too much cash, of the two choices, I agree with you - I would rather be playing for a couple of days and losing some $$$ to you, then be sick and stuck in the room for those days...

- Gho$ty

 

[Billy Jackets]

If you watch Efren Reyes, it's a completely unique and different way of playing. I mean, when he is in gear, he comes up with some absolutely beautiful shots -- ultra thin cuts with crazy extreme english, masse shots, kicks, etc. -- many of which he gets near perfect position out of, which is mind-boggling considering the level of difficulty in execution (for mere mortals).

However, that said, he does not consistently use some of the most basic "playing the score" and table management techniques that most successful One Pocket players consider absolute laws of the game. In fact, this year at the Derby, Efren lost twice in One Pocket for the first time ever, and I watched both losses. I would unequivically say that his failure to adhere to those fundamental laws cost him both matches.

Against Alex, Efren needed only only one ball to put Alex away, and Alex needed eight. Efren did knock a chunk of the remaining stack up table to a degree, but he commited a cardinal sin by exposing a desperation shot for Alex, which Alex buried and ran out. If Efren had instead forced Alex to push balls up table (or do something crazy), by locking Alex under the remaining balls, Efren wins that game, barring something crazy happening.

Against Gabe, again, Efren needed one ball to win, and Gabe scratched, which left a line up of three balls onthe foot spot, and a couple more loose balls -- one on the foot rail about a diamond away from Gabe's pocket, one up by the side pocket on Gabe's side. Now everbody that plays those basic laws of One Pocket knocks away the ball on the foot rail and leaves Gabe down table, preferably snookered from the loose balls so all he can shoot at (without kicking) is the underside of the three balls lined up on the spot. Inexplicably, Efren shot at the three balls, opening them up and Gabe ran out from there.

That's not smart One Pocket!

I agree 99%. The exception that I have seen, is that some of the world class
players , do not think about anything else when they see the win.
I have asked several of the greatest players after a match why they shot a ball the way they did which if missed could leave a potential shot, they all said the same thing.
They agreed they probably should have built security into the shot but never even thought about it , because they saw the win.
It is probably one of the ingredients that sets them apart from all the other great players.
They see the answer and never hesitate { which also means you don't second guess yourself, or give yourself a chance to think about missing }.
Just an observation from a rail beater.

 

[tylerdurden]

TD,

I guess this acknowledges that Efren has room to play smarter? I like the baseball analogy, also being a baseball fan. Many times a young fire-throwing pitcher relies on his fastball but after all the players get used to timing it it doesn't work anymore. All that tells me is that the guy wasn't taught to pitch properly in little league, college, minor leagues nor the majors either.

Although many pitchers do become more "crafty" as they age and lose their fastball, and some also change because of injury, what they change into is the pitcher they should have been all along and had inside of them to become. It's wasted talent to me and I hate it when I see it probably because I had no physical talent for the game (pool) whatsoever. I felt the way Brooks Robinson felt about hitting.

Dennis

YES! (to your first statement). Yet I don't completely agree. Haha, I know, odd. Here is how I see it using the same baseball analogy.....

Roger Clemens is the example I like. As I mentioned, he has said after he retired, when he was in his prime, he'd throw at guys, even let them steal second (with 2 outs). He didn't care. Why? Because he knoew he'd put up a zero anyway. I'm sure his manager didn't like it, but here is my point (and i'll relate it to efren)....

The fact that Roger did this makes him unpredictable. Hitters stepped in there not knowing what to expect. Was a 98 mph fastball coming at theirs heads? Forget about them crowding the plate. So, "stupid" pitching to some, yet perhaps effectively brilliant.

Now to efren. A lot of asians try to practice this whole philosophy about winning without ever really fighting. The fact that efren back cuts "wrong shots" into the hole and runs out after it makes every guy that plays him think, oh my god, i can't leave him down there anymore... or i better get him frozen on the rail if i do that.

They are all scared to death!! If he shot the "right shot" every time, there would be none of this hesitation from opponents. He scares the hell out of people precisely because he is not shooting the "right" shot, the predictable shot. You could even say, that was his strength.

So I guess I should have put quotes around the we'll see if efren plays "smarter" when his talent fades. Very interesting discussion. Thanks for going back and forth. I've enjoyed it.

 

[Cary]

YES! (to your first statement). Yet I don't completely agree. Haha, I know, odd. Here is how I see it using the same baseball analogy.....

Roger Clemens is the example I like. As I mentioned, he has said after he retired, when he was in his prime, he'd throw at guys, even let them steal second (with 2 outs). He didn't care. Why? Because he knoew he'd put up a zero anyway. I'm sure his manager didn't like it, but here is my point (and i'll relate it to efren)....

The fact that Roger did this makes him unpredictable. Hitters stepped in there not knowing what to expect. Was a 98 mph fastball coming at theirs heads? Forget about them crowding the plate. So, "stupid" pitching to some, yet perhaps effectively brilliant.

Now to efren. A lot of asians try to practice this whole philosophy about winning without ever really fighting. The fact that efren back cuts "wrong shots" into the hole and runs out after it makes every guy that plays him think, oh my god, i can't leave him down there anymore... or i better get him frozen on the rail if i do that.

They are all scared to death!! If he shot the "right shot" every time, there would be none of this hesitation from opponents. He scares the hell out of people precisely because he is not shooting the "right" shot, the predictable shot. You could even say, that was his strength.

So I guess I should have put quotes around the we'll see if efren plays "smarter" when his talent fades. Very interesting discussion. Thanks for going back and forth. I've enjoyed it.

That is not an invention of Clemens, it is the prime lesson all pitchers used to learn (sometimes in Little League). As Drysdale said, "Pitching is the art of instilling fear in the batter". Some do it with the fastball, some with a knuckle ball, some by just being eratic (anybody remember the name of the Yankee pitcher with coke bottle glasses & 100mph fastball that would throw one over the backstop while warming up?).

Times seem to have changed. Or not.

 

[islandtime]

That is not an invention of Clemens, it is the prime lesson all pitchers used to learn (sometimes in Little League). As Drysdale said, "Pitching is the art of instilling fear in the batter". Some do it with the fastball, some with a knuckle ball, some by just being eratic (anybody remember the name of the Yankee pitcher with coke bottle glasses & 100mph fastball that would throw one over the backstop while warming up?).

Times seem to have changed. Or not.

the 4 eyed flamethrower... Rhyne Duren & a little earlier, Sal 'the barber' Maglie was trimming the beaks off batter's caps too
bob

 

[timdog24]

(anybody remember the name of the Yankee pitcher with coke bottle glasses & 100mph fastball that would throw one over the backstop while warming up?).

Kyle Farnsworth? There's a great clip on youtube of a batter charging Farnsworth on the mound.

 

[Cary]

the 4 eyed flamethrower... Rhyne Duren & a little earlier, Sal 'the barber' Maglie was trimming the beaks off batter's caps too
bob

Rhyne Duren was the one I was thinking of--Thanks.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Sorry,

Sorry,

Back off a second there Beardman....I hope I'm allowed to take a little offense too ?...'Cause now your ruffling MY feathers a bit...If that was your "modus operandi" what gives you the right to say it was mine ?

There are plenty of people to attest to the fact, that I defended my home turf pretty well, in San Jose, S.F, Dallas, Houston and Shreveport and Phoenix, when I lived in those places...and also did a pretty fair amount of crossroading too. (You know, back when it was REALLY crossroading !!)

I was like you, in that I was never a nuthunter, and liked to bet all I could, whenever, and whoever, I played...So I'm not saying I didn't book some pretty fair loser's along the way. But I'll put my W/L percentage, up against anybody who saw as much action as I did. (except maybe A.B. and B.I., and a few others.)

I have only become a bonified "sucker" these past few years, because the bottom has dropped out, and I was having a hard time facing it.
I finally realize I am done now...My eyes and nerves are shot, and I don't even "think" a good game any more...I've always been a firm believer, that if you are playing bad, you are usually thinking bad..Seems I am proving that point..

That being said, I hope you enjoy your "Golden Years" better than I have, of late... But it was a ball while it lasted..Some of us get old at 70, and some, bless 'em at 90..I ain't gonna squawk at getting close to 80... ('specially, being as I didn't mature until 40)

PS..I think you sound like you believe R.A's "Audio Tales" about the first time he and Richie, came to San Jose..I guess you've never noticed his propensity to exagerate, in ALL his stories...One of these days, if we ever get together (the 3 of us, or maybe with John H.)...I will get enough booze in him, to make him tell what really happened on their first few trips to S.J.....It took them more than one trip, and a succesion of stakehorses, to get even close, to even...End of rant...:frus

So solly, I just thought that i would give you a chance to show some humility.

Admitting to any losers when you could play, is apparently as sensitive an area as my credibility thing.

Beard

 

[androd]

Rhyne Duren was the one I was thinking of--Thanks.

He'd throw one in the top of the back screen and Yogi would step out, pat his glove and holler Ryan, down here, can you see me.
Rod.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Please stop

Please stop

Please stop providing alibi's for these top players who shoot dumb shots. Dumb is dumb. There is an old saying that applies only too well here. These champions that make bad choices are champions in SPITE of their mistakes not BECAUSE of them.

Plus, everybody keeps referring to the amazing things that Efren can and nobody else, can do. Who the f*ck is talking about that? Whoever said his spin cuts, masse's, and outrageous kicks were the wrong shot? The "wrong" occurs most frequently in game management. ie., Failure to do what any shortstop would have no problem with, protecting the game.

One of the big problems with this discussion is, too few people know what the "right" thing is to start with. :sorry That is not a brag, and not an insult, just reality.

BEard

 

[androd]

Please stop providing alibi's for these top players who shoot dumb shots. Dumb is dumb. There is an old saying that applies only too well here. These champions that make bad choices are champions in SPITE of their mistakes not BECAUSE of them.

Plus, everybody keeps referring to the amazing things that Efren can and nobody else, can do. Who the f*ck is talking about that? Whoever said his spin cuts, masse's, and outrageous kicks were the wrong shot? The "wrong" occurs most frequently in game management. ie., Failure to do what any shortstop would have no problem with, protecting the game.

One of the big problems with this discussion is, too few people know what the "right" thing is to start with. :sorry That is not a brag, and not an insult, just reality.

BEard

This is spot on.
As the Asians say "Ed Zachery right."
Rod.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Please stop providing alibi's for these top players who shoot dumb shots. Dumb is dumb. There is an old saying that applies only too well here. These champions that make bad choices are champions in SPITE of their mistakes not BECAUSE of them.

Plus, everybody keeps referring to the amazing things that Efren can and nobody else, can do. Who the f*ck is talking about that? Whoever said his spin cuts, masse's, and outrageous kicks were the wrong shot? The "wrong" occurs most frequently in game management. ie., Failure to do what any shortstop would have no problem with, protecting the game.

One of the big problems with this discussion is, too few people know what the "right" thing is to start with. :sorry That is not a brag, and not an insult, just reality.

BEard

Right on Beardmonster...How many times have we seen "Champions" blow the cheese, on shots your mother could have executed...It just seems that I have managed to be in with a lot of guy's who have...Well, just puked up...:frus

PS..I know for sure, that you or me, have NEVER done it..

 

[fred bentivegna]

Going in with and betting on...

Going in with and betting on...

Right on Beardmonster...How many times have we seen "Champions" blow the cheese, on shots your mother could have executed...It just seems that I have managed to be in with a lot of guy's who have...Well, just puked up...:frus

PS..I know for sure, that you or me, have NEVER done it..

..I have felt that pain often..I have had terrible luck betting on anybody but Artie. He is the only one immune to my curse. What usually happens is my player tries to impress me by showing me how smart he is, instead of shooting and making all the bad shots he usually takes and makes. The outcome is predictable. They usually have no chance to win playing smart and wind up missing everything in sight. That is when I start jumping up and down like Rumplestilskin, cursing and hollering like a rank sucker.
"Just shoot like the f*kin idiot that you are!" I start screaming. "Make believe you're playing me!"


Beard

 

[wincardona]

Please stop providing alibi's for these top players who shoot dumb shots. Dumb is dumb. There is an old saying that applies only too well here. These champions that make bad choices are champions in SPITE of their mistakes not BECAUSE of them.

Plus, everybody keeps referring to the amazing things that Efren can and nobody else, can do. Who the f*ck is talking about that? Whoever said his spin cuts, masse's, and outrageous kicks were the wrong shot? The "wrong" occurs most frequently in game management. ie., Failure to do what any shortstop would have no problem with, protecting the game.

One of the big problems with this discussion is, too few people know what the "right" thing is to start with. That is not a brag, and not an insult, just reality.

BEard

What you say has a lot of merit but for some reason (which is confusing to me) it may not apply to Reyes. At the age of 54 he won the Galveston One Pocket Championship, and at the age of 57 he won the US Open One Pocket Championship. His shot making skills have obviously diminished, but in spite of that he continues to win. Maybe he has the smarts to shoot the right shots at the right time, or maybe he's smart enough to shoot the right shot where other players are scared to. Or maybe he knows where to position the cue ball to give his opponents the most problems. Maybe he knows when it's the right time to gamble and when it's not.:heh I guess he's much smarter than me because like I said it's confusing to me.:frus But what I do know is that many people are quick to point out his occasional mental blunders yet none of those people are crediting him for every thing in between. Another thing I do know for sure is that he's the best i've ever played, or seen play. And another thing he's the winningest one pocket player against champions that's ever played, period. Nobody said he was perfect, I don't know anyone that is.

Billy I.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Closest...

Closest...

What you say has a lot of merit but for some reason (which is confusing to me) it may not apply to Reyes. At the age of 54 he won the Galveston One Pocket Championship, and at the age of 57 he won the US Open One Pocket Championship. His shot making skills have obviously diminished, but in spite of that he continues to win. Maybe he has the smarts to shoot the right shots at the right time, or maybe he's smart enough to shoot the right shot where other players are scared to. Or maybe he knows where to position the cue ball to give his opponents the most problems. Maybe he knows when it's the right time to gamble and when it's not. I guess he's much smarter than me because like I said it's confusing to me.:frus But what I do know is that many people are quick to point out his occasional mental blunders yet none of those people are crediting him for every thing in between. Another thing I do know for sure is that he's the best i've ever played, or seen play. And another thing he's the winningest one pocket player against champions that's ever played, period. Nobody said he was perfect, I don't know anyone that is.

Billy I.

Willie, that is the closest you have ever come to agreeing with me about anything.:lol But you are skipping the main point. You are acknowledging his strong points -- which we all know already -- my argument is about his weaknesses.

Beard

 

[CaliRed]

But what I do know is that many people are quick to point out his occasional mental blunders yet none of those people are crediting him for every thing in between. Another thing I do know for sure is that he's the best i've ever played, or seen play. And another thing he's the winningest one pocket player against champions that's ever played, period. Nobody said he was perfect, I don't know anyone that is.

Billy I.

Very true Billy ! None of the champions are perfect, everyone shoots ill-advised shots at one time or another. I think it comes down to the frequency and skill. A gifted player may tend to shoot the wrong shot possibly more often, because he knows he can get away with it more often, either by making the shot a lot of the time, or making up for it, in other stages of the game.

I think bad shots are also highlighted more in great players. We expect more of them, that they are great because they know what's right and wrong. There may be lesser skilled players that tend to hardly ever shoot the wrong shot, and that may bump them up a notch or two and be able to allow them to play better players tough on a regular basis. But a great player can and does win in spite of shooting the wrong shot at times. Not saying all the time, but enough to keep them at the top of the pack.

I don't think just because a player is great, that he does not have some "shooter" in them at times. How many times do we also see a great player shoot the wrong shot, but get away with it because of their superior cue ball control, where controlling whitey saved them from a disaster.

There is a lot to be said with Efren still winning major onepocket events against the younger top champions today, at his age. We all agree he's lost a few balls over the years, but yet he is a threat to win any tournament he gets into. Not just onepocket, but bank pool or 9/10 ball too. It's not often that he is not near the top at the end of the tournament.

Also, the "shooters" we all know are going to shoot the wrong shot, because we know they are relying on their straight shooting ability. We know that the "movers" are going to plod along in the game, relying on shooting the right shot and being patient, to get them thru the offensive firepower of the shooter. Reyes is the champion he is, still today, because of his incredible ability to excel at so many areas of the game. Very few players are as well rounded as him. If someone has a high degree of skill in so many different areas, as Efren does... they make it very difficult to be beat.

It's tough to deal with someone who has exceptional talent at so many areas... his billiards experience helping him with his kicking, his caroming, and being able to go multiple rails with the cueball with uncanny precision. Or his experience at gambling to make his heart right, or his complete understanding of the cueball and the ability to make it do anything he wants, or his finesse game, or his imagination that allows him to get out of the toughest of predicaments. He excels in so many different areas, that he can decline in certain areas, and still be a top player.

I think the ratio of times we hear this....

"Why did Efren shoot that shot, that's not a good shot at all"

to this one...

"Wow, did you see that!" How did he do that? That was a incredible shot he just made.

is overwhelming in the 2nd area.

EDIT: I see Freddy is addressing a point I may be guilty of here too, but I think every player has weaknesses and always will have, but some players are special because they can overcome those weaknesses with their many strengths time and time again.

 

[wincardona]

Willie, that is the closest you have ever come to agreeing with me about anything.:lol But you are skipping the main point. You are acknowledging his strong points -- which we all know already -- my argument is about his weaknesses.

Beard

Every player has strengths and weaknesses, depending on how the scales are balanced determines how we are perceived. You say i'm missing the point...what point? You say we're talking about his weaknesses, I say that his weaknesses are fewer than any ones and his record speaks for that.
I happen to think that Reyes is a much better player than what certain people give him credit for being. I also think that Reyes is as smart of a player that there is, he just has the luxury of playing at the speed he enjoys playing. Just because he plays the wrong shot now and then don't ever think that he doesn't know it, he does. Have you ever felt so good about your game that you tried things that were against the grain? Well how do you think he feels when he's at the table with the weapons that he has? I really think that at times he gets bored and challenges himself by shooting ill advised shots. If we were all playing for body parts Reyes may never lose a game. And that's real.

Reyes plays all games great, particularly games of strategy like 8 ball and one pocket, he also plays a pretty good game of 15 ball rotation, and not a bad balk line player either. With that understanding how can any one believe that he's not a smart player. If the truth was known he's probably the most knowledgeable player there ever was period. Would you ever consider him to be a smart player, or a player that doesn't know what he's doing?

You yourself said that when you first started playing Reyes you had a good game, but after a couple hrs. he improved so much that he had a good game. I'd say he's pretty smart.

Billy I.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Nobody said he was perfect, I don't know anyone that is.

Billy I.

Well Bill, maybe if you'd point out one or two of his imperfections we wouldn't have to.

Dennis