Smartest Onepocket Player In Life

[Cowboy Dennis]

Squeezing is not the ability to have imagination. It shouldn't even be considered as having great one pocket skills.

Well Bill, if squeezing shouldn't be considered as a one-pocket skill what would you list as one-pocket skills?

Dennis

 

[petie]

No doubt about it--Jack Coony. He's the only one smart enough to remain under cover so long and consistently take down big scores.

 

[tylerdurden]

DD13,

It seems you are confusing physical talent with mental talent. They are two entirely different things. Efren is the greatest one-pocket player I've ever seen but he is definitely not the smartest. He quite frequently shoots the wrong shot but his physical talent so many times overcomes his wrong shot choice that he wins anyway.

Nobody who truly knows one-pocket would say that Efren is the smartest player of the game even if nobody could beat him playing even. Of course, then you'd have to qualify that statement by stating whether or not Efren was playing on his own money. I don't figure that happened too much.

As I said here one time about Efren, he may not always shoot the right shot but he shoots the wrong shot better than anybody in history.

P.S. Anybody who thinks that a player who beats a man in Galveston and then loses to the same man at DCC and is too "smart" to play the same man a third time is a "smart" one-pocket player is an idiot. I'd be fighting through hell & fire to play the guy a 3rd time. That man is a nit, nothing else.

Dennis

I honestly hate to disagree with any of you guys, really. But I have talked a little with Efren, and know what kind of guy he is. I also know how much he hates to lose (if that wasn't obvious). Anyway... my point...

I think it is unfair to say he shoots the wrong shots better than anybody. That is true, but I dont think they are the wrong shots. He's winning, right?

So, here is the crux of my point, IF Efren had lesser ability, I do think you would see him shoot quite a bit differently. I think he'd do what it took to win. It isn't really fair to say he shoots "wrong" shots when he is winning. I think you would have to KNOW he would shoot those same shots with less talent, and I personally don't think he would, but that is arguable. I'm not really saying he'd be the smartest ever, but if efren had Artie's same ability, I do think efren would be moving really really well. Perhaps not quite at Arties level, but who knows. But I think Efren's name gets taken out of the equation too quickly in these discussions simply because of his talent. I think if you asked Efren in different ambiguous scenarios, he'd say stuff like this is the right shot for me, but another player should not shoot that shot etc.

In short, it is very hard to effectively argue against winning in my estimation, because you assume the same shots would be taken under varying levels of talent. I don't think it is fair to do that.

Regards.

 

[tylerdurden]

I have a question for you all, is there any way one can see Artie play? Any tapes at all, even current ones??

Nice thread by the way.

 

[bstroud]

Smart is a relative term like "you are smarter than I am".

Are we talking about winning?
Are we talking about execution?
Are we talking about imagination?

Winning- I like Cooney He also knew when to win
Execution- Efferin Reputation only, I have never seen him play one pocket.
Imagination-Ronnie

Ronnie moved more balls toward his pocket more often than anyone I have ever played or seen play. He was like a juggler with lots of ball in the air all heading toward his pocket. This takes great imagination and self confidence to do consistently.

Bill Stroud

 

[tonygreen]

This is a terrible analogy but here goes.
There were dozens of smarter players in basketball than Michael Jordan but they never had his talent.

Not to detract from Jordan but Efren is similar to him in that regard. To shoot at your hole when 97 percent of the on-lookers would say "why wont he just move that ball near his opponents hole instead", but then make the hugely difficult shot and runout is hard to argue with.

 

[Cary]

The smartest pitcher in baseball was a guy nobody ever heard of (well almost nobody--and I can't remember his name right now). He had very limited natural talent but decades before the term bio-mechanics was invented he made a study of how to get the maximum performance possible when throwing a ball. Without a naturally overpowering fastball he learned to make the most of what he had and came up with one that would do the job. He combined this with an extensive repertoir of pitches from change to slider to knuckler. He combined that with constant practice and constant study of the hitters he would face, learning their strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else in baseball. The end result was a twenty year major league career as a "barely-hanging-on" journeyman pitcher. He followed that with another twenty years as a pitching coach (with no talent he actually knew HOW to throw a ball and could teach it). Fame? That's reserved for those with talent.

I suspect there is at least one similar one pocket player out there.

 

[androd]

To shoot at your hole when 97 percent of the on-lookers would say "why wont he just move that ball near his opponents hole instead", but then make the hugely difficult shot and runout is hard to argue with.

It is, but to just play a stupid, careless safety and lose the game-set-match is unexplainable. I.E Vs Pagulayan.
Rod.

 

[SJDinPHX]

It is, but to just play a stupid, careless safety and lose the game-set-match is unexplainable. I.E Vs Pagulayan.
Rod.

I have seen Efren, for years now, shoot the wrong shot, and make some real blunders...But its awful hard to argue with his win/loss percentage...I have to wonder, how many guys folded, just because they were playing HIM..?

A lot of guys come to mind..Like Chris Gentile, and a bunch of others...

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I have seen Efren, for years now, shoot the wrong shot, and make some real blunders...But its awful hard to argue with his win/loss percentage...I have to wonder, how many guys folded, just because they were playing HIM..?
A lot of guys come to mind..Like Chris Gentile, and a bunch of others...

Yep, this sure does happen...it's been talked about for 12 years at the DCC - the name given to it there is, "The Efren Factor"....the other pro tour players also agree with it - I can remember standing around about 7 years ago at the DCC when Corey Deuel, John Schmidt, and a couple other pro players that I can't remember right now, were talking about it.

- Ghost

 

[fred bentivegna]

The worst offender...

The worst offender...

I have seen Efren, for years now, shoot the wrong shot, and make some real blunders...But its awful hard to argue with his win/loss percentage...I have to wonder, how many guys folded, just because they were playing HIM..?

A lot of guys come to mind..Like Chris Gentile, and a bunch of others...

..Is Cliff Joyner. IMO, Cliff, when he was at top speed was only about 9 to 8 under Efren, but you wouldnt think that if you watched how he always played against Efren. He faints dead away.

Unfortunately, most of the people who are judging Efren's one pocket knowledge are not qualified to do so. If I am watching a doctor do brain surgery and I was only an Army medic, how would I know if he was doing it right?

Beard

Example: before you or the Ghost venture forth a 1pkt opinion, you usually check with me first.

 

[John Brumback]

Is there a difference between a smart player and a winning player? I'm confused.I would rather be called a winner than a smart player any day.

I've heard Allen Hopkins name mentioned alot about being one of the smartest players,but he was a winner too so that might not count.
John B.

 

[Scrzbill]

Well Bill, if squeezing shouldn't be considered as a one-pocket skill what would you list as one-pocket skills?

Dennis

I thought the thread was about who the most imaginative player. To me that is finding unusual shots to pocket balls while creating the opportunity for safe play. Myself, I lean more towards the aggressive side of one pocket, its more exciting to watch and the creativity is what I come to see. Not sheep herding. Years ago in 2003, there was a player that would move all the balls down to one corner. It took hours to play one game and although he always finished high, I don't like that style. I don't disagree that squeezing is an art form, but I like to think of creativity of finding shots to pocket balls and winning. Jack Cooney is another come to mind AS FAR AS imagination.
There will be a thousand opinions and as far as it goes, they are all correct.

 

[Scrzbill]

Is there a difference between a smart player and a winning player? I'm confused.I would rather be called a winner than a smart player any day.

I've heard Allen Hopkins name mentioned alot about being one of the smartest players,but he was a winner too so that might not count.
John B.

It's always smart to win.:lol:lol:lol

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

..
Beard

Example: before you or the Ghost venture forth a 1pkt opinion, you usually check with me first.

Not hardly........now I have no problem saying that I would ask your opinion re. bank shots, but as for One Pocket...

I defer to no one over my own level of understanding, and correct decision making, in the game of One Pocket...

- Ghost

 

[Scrzbill]

Corey Duel

Corey Duel

In 2003 at the DCC, Corey Duel was trying a new one pocket break. He would break them wide open and then run out if he made a ball. I spent a lot of time that year watching him play after hours. He could create shots from no where and be out. That year was also the year that Joiner and Keith played for several days. it was great one pocket. While I was there I was talking to John Schmidt and we were talking about Efren. He said Efren was a ball beyond any player at that time. Lots of "experts" claim Efren shoots the wrong shot. Well the right shot for Efren is the wrong shot for the "experts" because the "experts" can't make the shot. I'll take Efren and his bad shots any day over the experts. For our pool playing generation, we can say, we saw the best pool player ever when you watched Efren. When Efren plays one pocket, the balls are afraid to go in any pocket that is not his. :lol:lol:lol

 

[Scrzbill]

Not hardly........now I have no problem saying that I would ask your opinion re. bank shots, but as for One Pocket...

I defer to no one over my own level of understanding, and correct decision making, in the game of One Pocket...

- Ghost

I bought you a hat from the cue show last week, but I am going to have to give it to someone else. It will never fit your bulge now.

 

[Jimmy B]

..Is Cliff Joyner. IMO, Cliff, when he was at top speed was only about 9 to 8 under Efren, but you wouldnt think that if you watched how he always played against Efren. He faints dead away.

Unfortunately, most of the people who are judging Efren's one pocket knowledge are not qualified to do so. If I am watching a doctor do brain surgery and I was only an Army medic, how would I know if he was doing it right?

Beard

Example: before you or the Ghost venture forth a 1pkt opinion, you usually check with me first.

I'm so not qualified but what do I care? I have to once again agree with you Freddy. In the early 90's I had been watching Cooney play a friend of mine for days and days. Right after that Cliff is here playing the same fellow. On an off day Cliff was in the poolroom with a traveling partner of his but Cliff was doing nothing but hanging out. So I wanted to talk to him. So I start out by boosting him a bit. I say Cliff you must be the best in the country right now. I was watching Jack C. play this same man but wow you are much better. I said Cooney can move with you, but you shoot them in and run out a lot better. He says thanks. I said have you played Reyes lately? He just kinda bowed his head and says. I tell you what. That guy is a force to be reckoned with. I say what do you mean? He said well Reyes would shoot a shot against me and as I was in my chair watching, I would say to myself-That wasn't much of a shot. He didn't do much at all there. BUT when I got to the table, I never would have anything. I couldn't find anything to do. He kept me like imprisoned all the time. I can't beat him. So anyway Cliff seemed to think he was smart, plus I agree with John B. What's smarter than winning? I understand about smart creative shots but then again like Mr. Incardona said about some of Gradys' shots. Sometimes you can get too creative...................

 

[SJDinPHX]

I'm so not qualified but what do I care? I have to once again agree with you Freddy. In the early 90's I had been watching Cooney play a friend of mine for days and days. Right after that Cliff is here playing the same fellow. On an off day Cliff was in the poolroom with a traveling partner of his but Cliff was doing nothing but hanging out. So I wanted to talk to him. So I start out by boosting him a bit. I say Cliff you must be the best in the country right now. I was watching Jack C. play this same man but wow you are much better. I said Cooney can move with you, but you shoot them in and run out a lot better. He says thanks. I said have you played Reyes lately? He just kinda bowed his head and says. I tell you what. That guy is a force to be reckoned with. I say what do you mean? He said well Reyes would shoot a shot against me and as I was in my chair watching, I would say to myself-That wasn't much of a shot. He didn't do much at all there. BUT when I got to the table, I never would have anything. I couldn't find anything to do. He kept me like imprisoned all the time. I can't beat him. So anyway Cliff seemed to think he was smart, plus I agree with John B. What's smarter than winning? I understand about smart creative shots but then again like Mr. Incardona said about some of Gradys' shots. Sometimes you can get too creative...................

Creativity and imagination are the two strongest attributes to the game of one pocket. That is something you CANNOT teach Mr Ghoats...Not knocking your ability as an instructor, but neither you, or Artie, or the Beard can possibly teach someone "creativity"...

Only the basics can be taught...Watch the ball score, up table ahead, try and keep 'em down when behind, etc. The other intangibles, are impossible to teach. Two players, of exactly the same skill level at one pocket, I will always take the one with the most imagination...And you both know, he will almost always win.

 

[mr3cushion]

I thought the thread was about who the most imaginative player. To me that is finding unusual shots to pocket balls while creating the opportunity for safe play. Myself, I lean more towards the aggressive side of one pocket, its more exciting to watch and the creativity is what I come to see. Not sheep herding. Years ago in 2003, there was a player that would move all the balls down to one corner. It took hours to play one game and although he always finished high, I don't like that style. I don't disagree that squeezing is an art form, but I like to think of creativity of finding shots to pocket balls and winning. Jack Cooney is another come to mind AS FAR AS imagination.
There will be a thousand opinions and as far as it goes, they are all correct.

Scrz;
Where in the title of this thread is the word IMAGINATIVE????
Am I blind!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"