Smartest Onepocket Player In Life

wincardona

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Bill,

You may want to write this line down and use it on the 8 yr. olds you must think you're talking to on the AccuStats matches you commentate on. I'm sure your fan club will like it (until they hit the 4th grade).

Dennis
I guess i'm insulting you too, whats so wrong with what I said?

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Dennis every one has imperfections how can you possibly hold me to what I said as changing the wording to escape the statement. How could I possibly be right if I said that he has no imperfections.

You seem to me that your opinion on his table management is a glaring imperfection, when I feel that it's not.
Billy I.
Bill,

I'll try for the last time to get you to understand me, a difficult enough task for most but even harder with written word over the internet.

First of all, we are done talking about Efren at this point, get that clear please, we are past that at this point. We are talking about your contradictory statements in the same post.

Second is this: when I post a thread or comment I try to be as precise as possible with my words to convey my intended meaning. I'm still guilty sometimes of writing something incorrectly even though I thought it was correct, just because I knew what it meant. People on here write things all the time because they think others will know what they really meant, I try very hard to write exactly what I meant in the first place so there are no mix-ups or miscommunications for anyone to try to clear up.

Third is I figure that someone intelligent like you usually writes what they mean to write. You speak well, spell right for the most part and generally convey your meaning in your posts. When you write something I assume it's what you meant to write so when you write the two posts below I figure it's what you meant.

wincardona said:
I said that I didn't see any glaring imperfections, and yes if any part of his game needs improvement it's possible that it is his end game..possible.


Billy I.
wincardona said:
I'm not nearly as smart of a player as Reyes and I wouldn't feel good criticizing his play. I have much respect for his game, and yes he's my hero in pool. But to tell you the truth I don't know of any. I know when he was playing his best he was unbeatable playing one pocket and he had no glaring imperfections that I could see
Billy I.
With the line colored in red you are saying that Efren has no imperfections that you know of.

In the next sentence colored in blue you say that he had no glaring imperfections that you could see. To me this implies that he either had imperfections but they weren't glaring, or that he had imperfections but you couldn't see them. To me this is a direct contradiction for you to say he has none that you know of and in the next sentence you seem to be acknowledging that he has them but they are not glaring or that you just weren't capable of seeing them.

To me and my way of thinking you said he HAS imperfections and he DOESN'T have imperfections. To me you are equivocating and trying to cover both ends of the bet as is your nature:). You cannot have it both ways Bill, you need to state an opinion, a clear & well thought out opinion and then stick with it.

You need to write what you mean and mean what you write with me as much as possible. I go to great lengths to be precise with my words but I still make errors from time to time, fortunately for me nobody usually notices them:p.

All in all, since Efren is your hero maybe you aren't the one qualified to speak to his weaknesses but then you should stop bragging on his strengths also. You get all riled up everytime this discussion comes up about Efren. I have pointed out flaws of many players on this site and the fans of those players don't like it a bit but I really don't care what nuthuggers think anyway.

When a player shoots what I think is a stupid shot I'm not afraid to say so. From Gabe Owen, Rafael Martinez, Scott Frost and several others I give my opinion and stand by it unless someone uses reasoning and intelligence to convince me otherwise (and it has happened).

I'm not here to be likable to all, a man who trys to be everything to all people is nothing to nobody. I write my posts without thinking at all about what people will think about them, your posts look like you are walking the edge of a cliff and are trying to please everybody on both sides. That may just be your style, I'll try to bear that in mind in the future.

Take care Bill.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I guess i'm insulting you too, whats so wrong with what I said?

Billy I.
Bill,

It's just a comment that a total non-player and very unknowledgeable person would like, that's all. That is your audience on the DVDs you commentate.

Dennis
 

Scrzbill

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Most intelligent

Most intelligent

After reading most of the post, I have come to the conclusion that everyone agrees: Efren is the most intelligent one pocket player. :)
Why?
Each poster at one time or another has acknowledged that Efren shoots shots that no one else would shoot and makes them. I classify that as intelligence. Finding the shot for him that he can and does make, plus his ability to make more balls from his selection. And then winning.
There's a little bickering about a couple of games he lost, said to be, to poor table management. I always have equated one pocket with chess. There's a beginning, a middle and an end to all. The openings in chess determine what style of game you've committed, taking into account your opponents style. The middle, which can be a form of sheep herding and the end where safety play and managing the balls is crucial to win and to keep your opponent from scoring. :frus
It has been suggested because Efen make a couple of choices costing him some games, his end game is lacking. If I understand it correctly, Alex made a world class shot to win. Is that really considered bad management? This discussion isn't about shortstops or club players, it is about the cream de la creme. These are the players that shoot the impossible, making it look everyday.
Efren's advantage. During and after tournaments, the older Pinoys all get together and talk about their game, their strategy. They teach each other shots and go over mistakes and games. It is the one advantage the Pinoys have over other players. They play individually, but function as a group.
Who taught Efren to play one pocket? How do you teach someone whos' ability is so far beyond mere mortals? Its probably true he learned some shots and strategy. My game improved dramatically by playing a future HOF'er. I don't know. I am only familiar with Sonny and when he first came over. Originally he played nine ball and ten ball. And he had a weak one pocket game, unless you game him an open shot. Then he thought he was playing ten ball. He moved very poorly and lost consistently. He wanted to play winning one pocket. He went to LA and hung out with Bustamonte and his gang, next thing you know, Sonny is playing very decent, winning one pocket.
Anyway, this has been a fun topic, with a very lively discussion that didn't deteriorate into slashing personal remarks across the board. We all agree
EFREN IS THE MOST INTELLIGENT.:cool::cool: If you disagree, no reasons, just name your choice. Lets just make up a list and rank them. ER, RA......
I still like Tony's intelligence when it comes to one pocket, I can't wait until he returns from vacation.
BTW, It is one of my pleasures in life that I have gotten to be around some great sports figures. Joe Montana, Steve Young, Muhammed Ali, Efren Reyes. I look forward every year to seeing him play and the chance to draw him in one of the tournaments. Like poker, I am considered dead money since 2003.:sorry
 

Cowboy Dennis

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It has been suggested because Efen make a couple of choices costing him some games, his end game is lacking. If I understand it correctly, Alex made a world class shot to win. Is that really considered bad management?
Yes it is Bill when Efren did not have to leave Alex a shot like this. This is where Alex ran out to win the match. It was not a world-class shot but it was a world-class out. Am I safe in assuming that you have not seen this out since you say "If I understand it correctly"?

Alex vs. Efren 2008 DCC - OnePocket.jpg
 

Scrzbill

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Yes it is Bill when Efren did not have to leave Alex a shot like this. This is where Alex ran out to win the match. It was not a world-class shot but it was a world-class out. Am I safe in assuming that you have not seen this out since you say "If I understand it correctly"?

View attachment 4530
I haven't seen it since my Ipad will not play the table set up gizmo. All I am saying about Efren is two games against all the brilliant shots (intelligent) he has made does not lessen his "most intelligent " player status. Most intelligent means to me finding and executing a shot no one else can or will shoot.
From your postings, I believe you prefer the tighter player. To me that represents another category. There could actually decide to have many categories and have many different players to fit. Remember also, we are talking about players that generally are heads above normal human one pocket players.
Ex: For all his ability, last year, Earl made one of the most boneheaded shots in one pocket history against Shannon. Earl, despite playing poor one pocket fundamentals in his middle game, was close to the finals. He and Shannon were playing the TV table. While at times it looks like Shannon is taking the wrong shot, his ball control is such that he rarely leaves a shot and often has put a ball in his hole to add pressure. Earl ignores this type of play and depends on his superior shot making to stay in games. Anyway, Earl has a shot. To pocket one ball with little or no reward. He pockets the ball and then instead of drawing his cue or going around the stack, he drives his cue straight into the pack. He was trying to create something, instead, sticking himself in a very poor position. A fools shot of enormous proportion, yet he almost escaped from it.
On Shannon's inning, he made a difficult shot, ran out and moved on. Earl went to the losers side.
I have to give Earl credit for his tremendous ability to get out from almost anywhere and managing to get as far as he did in the one pocket. His management of the middle game is fair at best and when you get close to the finals like he did, its costly.
He played a few months later at my home court and he was playing a little more one pocket management style. You could tell he didnt like it and it affected his mental game. Well, we all know what happens when Earl goes on tilt.
Really, I am going to follow Earl in one pocket this year to see if his huge mistake has caused him to rethink his style of management.
How many categories do you think there should be besides "most intelligent".
Tightest safety play. Most offensive. Highest winning percentage. Most under cover road player. (Jack C, hands down) and so on. I think it would be a fun discussion like this one.
Did anyone send any photos of RC's cues? There was a huge crowd for the show and the tournament. They cues overall were beautiful.
I sold my Bautista butterfly cue I ordered last month in about three hours. Can't wait for your new thread about categories of one pocket style.:lol:lol
 

Scrzbill

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Yes it is Bill when Efren did not have to leave Alex a shot like this. This is where Alex ran out to win the match. It was not a world-class shot but it was a world-class out. Am I safe in assuming that you have not seen this out since you say "If I understand it correctly"?

View attachment 4530
Did he bank the five? I disagree that one shot makes for bad table management. We're not robots. If no one ever made a mental or physical error, we would have to deal with walking on water.:lol:lol
What did he shoot? If its me, its the five going two rails for shape on the 0ne /six. But that's me, not even a short stop wanna be.:sorry
 

Fast Lenny

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Yes it is Bill when Efren did not have to leave Alex a shot like this. This is where Alex ran out to win the match. It was not a world-class shot but it was a world-class out. Am I safe in assuming that you have not seen this out since you say "If I understand it correctly"?

View attachment 4530
It looks like Alex played the percentages, he needs them all and Efren needs 1, the chances of him winning the game are very slim unless he does something aggressive. We have all experienced having control of a game and we put a guys back to the wall so to speak or he just goes for it because he is either going to make the shot or lose the game on it since we have a big lead, the guy pulls it off and it takes the wind out of our sails as he runs out. I think certain shots are correct according to your opponents abilities, the ball count, and also what is riding on it.

What kind of underdog is Alex against Efren needing all the balls and Efren needing 1? I am sure Alex thought about it and thought to himself, here is a shot that I am 33% to make along with being guaranteed another shot to perhaps win the game or atleast get me back into the game and if I try grinding this out with how the table is positioned I am 95% to lose. I would be interested to see what people think about percentages in the game of one pocket like Dick, Artie and Billy. So perhaps the smartest one pocket player in life is one who also plays the percentages the best. :cool:
 

fred bentivegna

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I must have howled...

I must have howled...

Yes it is Bill when Efren did not have to leave Alex a shot like this. This is where Alex ran out to win the match. It was not a world-class shot but it was a world-class out. Am I safe in assuming that you have not seen this out since you say "If I understand it correctly"?

View attachment 4530
...I did commentary on that match, and I dont remember exactly what I said regarding Effie's shot choice and his leave for Alex, but I am sure I would have howled that Effie had given Alex an unnecessary chance to win the game. As Alex made the bank and started running balls I would bet I compounded my, "I told you so's."

Beard
 

Scrzbill

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...I did commentary on that match, and I dont remember exactly what I said regarding Effie's shot choice and his leave for Alex, but I am sure I would have howled that Effie had given Alex an unnecessary chance to win the game. As Alex made the bank and started running balls I would bet I compounded my, "I told you so's."

Beard
Very funny:lol:lol:lol
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Did he bank the five? I disagree that one shot makes for bad table management. We're not robots. If no one ever made a mental or physical error, we would have to deal with walking on water.:lol:lol
What did he shoot? If its me, its the five going two rails for shape on the 0ne /six. But that's me, not even a short stop wanna be.:sorry
Bill,

The point is not what Alex shot, the point is what Efren shot to leave Alex here. He had an extremely simple, lock-up safety but instead left Alex a chance. This layout and the shot leading up to it has been discussed here before. If I can find it I'll show it or maybe later I can find the DVD that has it and post that.

Dennis
 

Scrzbill

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Bill,

The point is not what Alex shot, the point is what Efren shot to leave Alex here. He had an extremely simple, lock-up safety but instead left Alex a chance. This layout and the shot leading up to it has been discussed here before. If I can find it I'll show it or maybe later I can find the DVD that has it and post that.

Dennis
Dennis, I'm not trying to offend you, but your grinding over one shot. One shot in one game? It's just not that germane. Let it go. Can you find a player who has never made a mental or physical error? I know what you're talking about but I'm not going to measure anyone over a couple of games. How did he get that 7-1 lead. Did he make intelligent shots previously? If you could find tapes of any player playing their games, you will find a spot they shot a weak play.
Its a waste of time. Lets move on to the other fun topics of one pocket.
BLACK FRIDAY is coming up and I have to concentrate on shopping.:lol:lol:lol
 

petie

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A wise person once old me that to have a perfect conversation you needed 4 perfect elements. You needed a perfect sender of messages on one side and a perfect reciever of messages on the other side. You also needed a perfect sender of messages on the second side and a perfect reciever of messages on the first side. If any one of these 4 elements was less than perfect, your perfect communication would break down. In my experience in sales and marriage and personal interaction I have concluded that perfect communication is not just rare; its non-existant. You need a certain amount of good will or grace if you will. Trying too hold a person to the standards of perfect communication is a little to anal. Just sayin'.
 
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MARK..HOU TX

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A wise person once old me that to have a perfect conversation you needed 4 perfect elements. You needed a perfect sender of messages on one side and a perfect reciever of messages on the other side. You also needed a perfect sender of messages on the second side and a perfect reciever of messages on the first side. If any one of these 4 elements was less than perfect, your perfect communication would break down. In my experience in sales and marriage and personal interaction I have concluded that perfect communication is not just rare; its non-existant. You need a certain amount of good will or grace if you will. Trying too hold a person to the standards of perfect communication is a little to anal. Just sayin'.
Reagan wasn't perfect ..but he was "The Great Communicator" :)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Dennis, I'm not trying to offend you, but your grinding over one shot. One shot in one game? It's just not that germane. Let it go. Can you find a player who has never made a mental or physical error? I know what you're talking about but I'm not going to measure anyone over a couple of games. How did he get that 7-1 lead. Did he make intelligent shots previously? If you could find tapes of any player playing their games, you will find a spot they shot a weak play.
Its a waste of time. Lets move on to the other fun topics of one pocket.
BLACK FRIDAY is coming up and I have to concentrate on shopping.:lol:lol:lol
Bill,

I'm not grinding out any shot. I posted that layout in answer to your questions and statements, when I do that it's in response to you not me grinding any shot out. That shot and subsequent layout was brought up 3 yrs. & 10 mths. ago in post #7 so it's not exactly new to the discussion of Efrens endgame deficiencies and mishaps.

If you don't want to discuss it then you should stop discussing it already. I'll keep discussing anything I see fit. It's good to see that I don't have to dig up the layout previous to that one, not that I won't but at least now I don't feel a need.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Bill,

I'm not grinding out any shot. I posted that layout in answer to your questions and statements, when I do that it's in response to you not me grinding any shot out. That shot and subsequent layout was brought up 3 yrs. & 10 mths. ago in post #7 so it's not exactly new to the discussion of Efrens endgame deficiencies and mishaps.

If you don't want to discuss it then you should stop discussing it already. I'll keep discussing anything I see fit. It's good to see that I don't have to dig up the layout previous to that one, not that I won't but at least now I don't feel a need.

Dennis
I don't see any glaring deficiencies in his end game.:D Enough is enough.

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I don't see any glaring deficiencies in his end game.:D Enough is enough.

Billy I.
Let me tell you a short-story Bill: Big Bill Patee was staking Ronnie Howe against Scott McKensie(sp) out at Cue Corners in Romulus, Michigan (late 70's early 80's). Bill had conned Scott into giving Ronnie the wild 8 playing 9-Ball on an 8 foot table. I don't know if you've heard of Ronnie but he was a very good bartable player. He also played a mean game of 14.1 on a 9' table so he was not unfamiliar with a larger table. Scott played me with the wild 7 (him spotting me), in other words he couldn't have beaten Ronnie playing even but he was giving him the 8.

I don't remember the bet but they were playing sets and after Scott was down a couple of sets he tried to adjust the game to a 9' table. Ronnie would've still robbed him on a 9' table but Big Bill told him he didn't like that game, he didn't think they could win at it. Scott knew by this time that he was being robbed (didn't take long) and this was the very first time in my life that I ever heard this phrase spoken: Scott told Big Bill "Bill, why don't you go outside, get a gun and shoot yourself in the head".

Dennis
 

Scrzbill

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Bill,

I'm not grinding out any shot. I posted that layout in answer to your questions and statements, when I do that it's in response to you not me grinding any shot out. That shot and subsequent layout was brought up 3 yrs. & 10 mths. ago in post #7 so it's not exactly new to the discussion of Efrens endgame deficiencies and mishaps.

If you don't want to discuss it then you should stop discussing it already. I'll keep discussing anything I see fit. It's good to see that I don't have to dig up the layout previous to that one, not that I won't but at least now I don't feel a need.

Dennis
I don't think this thread is worth taking a gun to your head, but if you must...........Instead of answering my questions, you went right back to this game YOU SAY shows Efrens just another player you would rob IN THE END GAME. Constantly repeating the same statement over and over is grinding, NEVER RESPONDING to other aspects of the discussion . The thing about it is, YOU ARE WRONG. The discussion is about the most intelligent one pocket player and you are picking out one game, one example from each to say Efren is not an intelligent player. That is just YOUR opinion and yours only. You have ignored any other statements made, constantly going back to your one grind. Picking out one shot in one game and repeating the same tired statement is grinding and being a NIT. You can go on about anything you want and OFTEN do. To the point of excess.
Where are the tapes of you playing? Let's see them so we can criticize your choices and shots. I would like to see you step up and play Efren and lets pick apart your game. Your moral superiority is boring and constantly criticizing the play of others shows a lack of self confidence. I don't care if you put up a thousand of your post, they will all say the same thing. For some reason you think your statements on a message board will make Efren less of the greatest player that he is. Efren is recognized as the greatest player of our era by nearly everyone in the pool world except out of touch Cowboys.
Those that can't do, become critics.
 

Scrzbill

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I don't see any glaring deficiencies in his end game.:D Enough is enough.

Billy I.
What do you know?:cool: Just because you're a recognized, great, one pocket player, who are you to argue with Dennis?:eek:
Hell, I'll take 11-4 from you on your worst day. (But only for $5):lol:lol
 

timdog24

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I don't see any glaring deficiencies in his end game.:D Enough is enough.

Billy I.
After reading some of this thread, I had a question: Would Efren be the hands down favorite over all the top players playing one ball one pocket? I can't see him having much of an edge, if any, over guys like Shannon or Frost. They bank and move just as good, if not slightly better than Efren.

I bring this up over the debate about Efren's end game. I know there's a lot more to the end game than just one ball on the table, but was wondering what you or anyone else thought about that.
 
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