Smartest Onepocket Player In Life

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
Well Bill, maybe if you'd point out one or two of his imperfections we wouldn't have to.

Dennis
I'm not nearly as smart of a player as Reyes and I wouldn't feel good criticizing his play. I have much respect for his game, and yes he's my hero in pool. But to tell you the truth I don't know of any. I know when he was playing his best he was unbeatable playing one pocket and he had no glaring imperfections that I could see:sorry

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Very true Billy ! None of the champions are perfect, everyone shoots ill-advised shots at one time or another. I think it comes down to the frequency and skill. A gifted player may tend to shoot the wrong shot possibly more often, because he knows he can get away with it more often, either by making the shot a lot of the time, or making up for it, in other stages of the game.

I think bad shots are also highlighted more in great players. We expect more of them, that they are great because they know what's right and wrong. There may be lesser skilled players that tend to hardly ever shoot the wrong shot, and that may bump them up a notch or two and be able to allow them to play better players tough on a regular basis. But a great player can and does win in spite of shooting the wrong shot at times. Not saying all the time, but enough to keep them at the top of the pack.

I don't think just because a player is great, that he does not have some "shooter" in them at times. How many times do we also see a great player shoot the wrong shot, but get away with it because of their superior cue ball control, where controlling whitey saved them from a disaster.

There is a lot to be said with Efren still winning major onepocket events against the younger top champions today, at his age. We all agree he's lost a few balls over the years, but yet he is a threat to win any tournament he gets into. Not just onepocket, but bank pool or 9/10 ball too. It's not often that he is not near the top at the end of the tournament.

Also, the "shooters" we all know are going to shoot the wrong shot, because we know they are relying on their straight shooting ability. We know that the "movers" are going to plod along in the game, relying on shooting the right shot and being patient, to get them thru the offensive firepower of the shooter. Reyes is the champion he is, still today, because of his incredible ability to excel at so many areas of the game. Very few players are as well rounded as him. If someone has a high degree of skill in so many different areas, as Efren does... they make it very difficult to be beat.

It's tough to deal with someone who has exceptional talent at so many areas... his billiards experience helping him with his kicking, his caroming, and being able to go multiple rails with the cueball with uncanny precision. Or his experience at gambling to make his heart right, or his complete understanding of the cueball and the ability to make it do anything he wants, or his finesse game, or his imagination that allows him to get out of the toughest of predicaments. He excels in so many different areas, that he can decline in certain areas, and still be a top player.

I think the ratio of times we hear this....

"Why did Efren shoot that shot, that's not a good shot at all"

to this one...

"Wow, did you see that!" How did he do that? That was a incredible shot he just made.

is overwhelming in the 2nd area.:)

EDIT: I see Freddy is addressing a point I may be guilty of here too, but I think every player has weaknesses and always will have, but some players are special because they can overcome those weaknesses with their many strengths time and time again.
It seems that whenever a "right" or "wrong" shot is discussed here that many assume the "shooter" is being called out for shooting at his pocket. That's not correct at all most of the time when I say it. I'm talking game management as Freddy said, knocking balls uptable when you have a 6-2 lead in a game, not leaving teasers for a guy to take a whack at and beat you. That's what I'm talking about when I say "game management". Efren, throughout his career, has left guys shots that they could beat him with when it would be simple not to. Just because he has overwhelming talent and beats most guys he plays doesn't make this right.

There are many players who are not "shooters" but have great talent and play a patient game, they can shoot just as well as the so-called shooters but elect to play properly for their cash. This doesn't make them "movers", it makes them guys who play the game right. The one guy in my area who played like that was Miami, I can't remember him ever shooting the wrong shot, win or lose he did the right thing and he never once shot an ill-advised offensive shot. You could've put a gun to his head and he wouldn't have shot at his hole if he thought another shot was the right shot.

The next time you see a guy play ask yourself a simple question: "Would I bet $1000 of my hard-earned cash on this guy in an even game?". Your answer to that question will tell you how a guy plays and how much you can count on him to play the game right.

The only guy I would ever bet $1000 on is me. I am my own toughest critic and I know how I played for serious cash. I expect no less of an effort from so-called great players but I'd be mostly disappointed.

Dennis
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
It seems that whenever a "right" or "wrong" shot is discussed here that many assume the "shooter" is being called out for shooting at his pocket. That's not correct at all most of the time when I say it. I'm talking game management as Freddy said, knocking balls uptable when you have a 6-2 lead in a game, not leaving teasers for a guy to take a whack at and beat you. That's what I'm talking about when I say "game management". Efren, throughout his career, has left guys shots that they could beat him with when it would be simple not to. Just because he has overwhelming talent and beats most guys he plays doesn't make this right.

There are many players who are not "shooters" but have great talent and play a patient game, they can shoot just as well as the so-called shooters but elect to play properly for their cash. This doesn't make them "movers", it makes them guys who play the game right. The one guy in my area who played like that was Miami, I can't remember him ever shooting the wrong shot, win or lose he did the right thing and he never once shot an ill-advised offensive shot. You could've put a gun to his head and he wouldn't have shot at his hole if he thought another shot was the right shot.

The next time you see a guy play ask yourself a simple question: "Would I bet $1000 of my hard-earned cash on this guy in an even game?". Your answer to that question will tell you how a guy plays and how much you can count on him to play the game right.

The only guy I would ever bet $1000 on is me. I am my own toughest critic and I know how I played for serious cash. I expect no less of an effort from so-called great players but I'd be mostly disappointed.

Dennis
Dennis, I have a question for you, seriously.:)

If Miami coached Reyes do you think that Reyes would be more effective, or less effective?

Billy I.
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
3,624
This thread started out as a discussion about who was the smartest player, and not about how many mistakes the smartest player might make (or what constitutes a mistake, for that matter).

Damon Runyon (who knew about such things) once wrote "It may be that the race is not always to the swift, or the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

Someone else - I don't know who - said that the strong take from the weak, and the smart take from the strong. Let's look around and see if we can spot the guy who has been taking from the strong for quite a long time. Just sayin'. :)
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Dennis, I have a question for you, seriously.:)

If Miami coached Reyes do you think that Reyes would be more effective, or less effective?

Billy I.
I'll answer you seriously Bill but first I need to know one thing: does Efren have to shoot what Miami tells him to shoot?

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
This thread started out as a discussion about who was the smartest player
Actually, this thread was started by Artie Bodendorfer or a close friend or acquaintance of AB's, probably at AB's direction, as a way to puff up AB's legacy and ego. It is a joke of a thread as are all 14 of Houston Ron 1966's posts on this site. He/she is clearly working at Artie's direction and with his approval. Since it is a fabricated thread anyway and not serious at all we may as well use it for whatever purpose we like.

Dennis
 
Last edited:

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
I'll answer you seriously Bill but first I need to know one thing: does Efren have to shoot what Miami tells him to shoot?

Dennis
Yes Reyes must shoot what Miami tells him to shoot.every shot :eek:

And for any one that thinks that Reyes would be more effective under those terms they truly don't understand greatness.

Dr. Bill
 
Last edited:

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Yes Reyes must shoot what Miami tells him to shoot.:eek:

And for any one that thinks that Reyes would be more effective under those terms they truly don't understand greatness.

Dr. Bill
I agree Dr. Bill....But I just don't think it has that much to do with "greatness"...When player's reach the level, of either Miami or Efren,
(or any other two top players) there is no way one can effectively coach the other. There may be a few shots one may advise the other on, with favorable results, but in the long run it would be disruptive to their individual styles, or skills, and would be more of a detriment, than an advantage....JMHO

PS..I have some 'being coached', and considerable 'coaching' experience...and believe me, neither one is a day at the beach, unless you have the best of it going in anyway...;).. (Note;..You are talking to a guy, who used to TRY to coach Titanic)..:frus
 
Last edited:

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
I agree Dr. Bill....But I just don't think it has that much to do with "greatness"...When player's reach the level, of either Miami or Efren,
(or any other two top players) there is no way one can effectively coach the other. There may be a few shots one may advise the other on, with favorable results, but in the long run it would be disruptive to their individual styles, or skills, and would be more of a detriment, than an advantage....JMHO

PS..I have some 'being coached', and considerable 'coaching' experience...and believe me, neither one is a day at the beach, unless you have the best of it going in anyway...;).. (Note;..You are talking to a guy, who used to TRY to coach Titanic)..:frus
On the contrary it has every thing to do with understanding greatness. If any one thinks that a solid B player can coach a great player with better results doesn't understand why a great player is great. Great players think on a different level and they play from within, to achieve their greatness.

Billy I.
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
15,331
i think this discussion at times has the discussants on 2 different pages
the thread is who is the smartest
often the discussion comes to who is the greatest
or the greatest winner must be the smartest

i dont think that is necessarily true:eek:

it seems there is a concensus that efren has more overall talent than perhaps anyone that played
he can shoot "wrong" shots to us that turn out "right" for him
he understands that the best shot often is the one you can execute
that doesnt make him the smartest:eek:(again:D)


one could argue that the greatest coach of a sport is the smartest in that sport even if they were only average players....just sayin

your thoughts??
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Yes Reyes must shoot what Miami tells him to shoot.every shot :eek:

And for any one that thinks that Reyes would be more effective under those terms they truly don't understand greatness.

Dr. Bill
Well since you boxed me in already I have no choice but to agree with your assessment. Efren's game would suffer in totality if he had to shoot what a lesser player told him to shoot but I guarantee you that his endgame would improve with Miami instructing him. If Efren had played Miami for his formulative years he would've had an endgame that didn't need improving.

P.S. How do you say that nobody's perfect and when I ask you to list one of Efrens imperfections you say you can't think of any? That sounds like less than a full verity to me but you are the "Great Tergiversator":D.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
i think this discussion at times has the discussants on 2 different pages
the thread is who is the smartest
often the discussion comes to who is the greatest
or the greatest winner must be the smartest

i dont think that is necessarily true:eek:

it seems there is a concensus that efren has more overall talent than perhaps anyone that played
he can shoot "wrong" shots to us that turn out "right" for him
he understands that the best shot often is the one you can execute
that doesnt make him the smartest:eek:(again:D)


one could argue that the greatest coach of a sport is the smartest in that sport even if they were only average players....just sayin

your thoughts??
One more thought i'll give, and this adds to efren's smarts.....

A lot of great players seem to just marvel at him (and why not). I think much of his table intelligence manifests itself in what he has practiced (privately) over the years. He does things with the cb that not many do.... he was smart enough to work on that aspect. I don't see many players practicing cb moves like he has mastered them.

Point in short.... maybe much of his "talent" has actually been misread. Maybe it was just pure hard work and a great knowledge to know WHAT to work on to get the best results. I think most top players could do almost all the stuff he does if they just had the smarts to know how to most effectively utilize their practice time, or what games to practice.
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
Well since you boxed me in already I have no choice but to agree with your assessment. Efren's game would suffer in totality if he had to shoot what a lesser player told him to shoot but I guarantee you that his endgame would improve with Miami instructing him. If Efren had played Miami for his formulative years he would've had an endgame that didn't need improving.

P.S. How do you say that nobody's perfect and when I ask you to list one of Efrens imperfections you say you can't think of any? That sounds like less than a full verity to me but you are the "Great Tergiversator":D.

Dennis
I said that I didn't see any glaring imperfections, and yes if any part of his game needs improvement it's possible that it is his end game..possible.

We as critics, whether it be pool related or any other sport are quick to criticize great players mistakes. I guess it's a way to make ourselves feel more relevant. Did you ever stop to notice that when a great player blunders it's much more noticeable than when lesser players blunder?

At the risk of being redundant I will say once again that no ones perfect.:sorry


Billy I.
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,218
It seems most who have posted here agree with me. " Mistake Free " is an urban legend. :eek:
Rod.
P.S. Nice to strive for it though.
 

tonygreen

Well-Known-Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
391
i think this discussion at times has the discussants on 2 different pages
the thread is who is the smartest
often the discussion comes to who is the greatest
or the greatest winner must be the smartest

i dont think that is necessarily true:eek:

it seems there is a concensus that efren has more overall talent than perhaps anyone that played
he can shoot "wrong" shots to us that turn out "right" for him
he understands that the best shot often is the one you can execute
that doesnt make him the smartest:eek:(again:D)


one could argue that the greatest coach of a sport is the smartest in that sport even if they were only average players....just sayin

your thoughts??
Makes alot of sense to me. Incardona is right on everypoint and again I can here Grady's commentary in my ear "Efren is no mere mortal".

Congratulations for all at the thread surviving the hijacks. The super player or fantasy player would have the craftiness of an Ali and the power of a Foreman/Tyson the will of a Ray Robinson. No one player has exhibited this more than Reyes.

Mosconi ran 500 plus on certain equiptment and Hopkins ran 400 (FIREPOWER)Chicago Bugs could make any bank we know Efren can make that same bank. Name the five best defensive shots you have ever seen in one-pocket and Efren can emulate those shots with precision. A great defense is a strong offense.

I stand corrected the term Smartest can be looked at differently as we now see after Incardona, Cowboy , Bentivegna and the Ghost's comments.

I think the greatest weapon of all in Efren's possession is his Cueball administration, maybe that is what makes him the smartest. The Efren that we'll see in ten years will look very familiar to what we see now.
 

Cary

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
871
It seems most who have posted here agree with me. " Mistake Free " is an urban legend. :eek:
Rod.
P.S. Nice to strive for it though.
It seems to me that "mistake free" for most people is 1) not doing anything stupid & selling out (I do it all the time) 2) making the shots you should make and not shooting the ones that you generally can't (I'm working on it).

ETA: If I manage to do those two things, the score usually seems to work out ok. Well, better anyway.
 
Last edited:

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I said that I didn't see any glaring imperfections, and yes if any part of his game needs improvement it's possible that it is his end game..possible.


Billy I.
wincardona said:
I'm not nearly as smart of a player as Reyes and I wouldn't feel good criticizing his play. I have much respect for his game, and yes he's my hero in pool. But to tell you the truth I don't know of any. I know when he was playing his best he was unbeatable playing one pocket and he had no glaring imperfections that I could see

Billy I.
You said you don't know of any imperfections in his game and then went on to dissemble & equivocate with the "glaring imperfections" line. As soon as you make a concrete statement you backtrack to leave a little escape route. Jeez, I feel like Ghosty here, needing to go back and show you what you wrote. There are so many cons & covering-your-ass sentences in the above quote of yours that it's a miracle how you crammed them all into a neat little paragraph, but I know you can't help it.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Did you ever stop to notice that when a great player blunders it's much more noticeable than when lesser players blunder?



Billy I.
Bill,

You may want to write this line down and use it on the 8 yr. olds you must think you're talking to on the AccuStats matches you commentate on. I'm sure your fan club will like it (until they hit the 4th grade).

Dennis
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,410
You said you don't know of any imperfections in his game and then went on to dissemble & equivocate with the "glaring imperfections" line. As soon as you make a concrete statement you backtrack to leave a little escape route. Jeez, I feel like Ghosty here, needing to go back and show you what you wrote. There are so many cons & covering-your-ass sentences in the above quote of yours that it's a miracle how you crammed them all into a neat little paragraph, but I know you can't help it.

Dennis
Dennis every one has imperfections how can you possibly hold me to what I said as changing the wording to escape the statement. How could I possibly be right if I said that he has no imperfections.

You seem to me that your opinion on his table management is a glaring imperfection, when I feel that it's not.
Billy I.
 
Last edited:
Top