Smartest Onepocket Player In Life

One Pocket Ghost

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I bought you a hat last week, but It will never fit your bulge now. :D:D

K-Bill....It's pretty obvious what hat you bought for me - one that says "Smartest One Pocket Player In The World" on the front..:heh...seeing as you got me the wrong size, would you mind getting me another one in a much bigger size..:D...:cool:

Thanks, Ghost
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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I thought the thread was about who the most imaginative player. To me that is finding unusual shots to pocket balls while creating the opportunity for safe play. Myself, I lean more towards the aggressive side of one pocket, its more exciting to watch and the creativity is what I come to see. Not sheep herding. Years ago in 2003, there was a player that would move all the balls down to one corner. It took hours to play one game and although he always finished high, I don't like that style. I don't disagree that squeezing is an art form, but I like to think of creativity of finding shots to pocket balls and winning. Jack Cooney is another come to mind AS FAR AS imagination.
There will be a thousand opinions and as far as it goes, they are all correct.
Well Bill it's about anything we want to discuss I guess. I think you and I have different views of "squeezing" though. I'm not referring to knocking all the balls uptable to a corner when I say "squeezer", just a smart player playing the game correctly that's all, someone who doesn't shoot at white flags but also doesn't pass up a shot just to knock the balls uptable.

P.S. This thread was started by an Artie Bodendorfer nuthugger so he could glorify his hero, that's the primary motivation for the thread's origination. I'm certain that they will start chiming in here if this thread stays on the front page.

Dennis

Houston_ron_1966 said:
Smartest Onepocket Player In Life



Who do you think is the smartest onepocket player in the world and why do you think they are the smatest onepocket player in the world and do they have any contests or tournament to prove who is the smartest onepocket player in the world is.

Thanks,

Houston_ron
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Creativity and imagination are the two strongest attributes to the game of one pocket. That is something you CANNOT teach Mr Ghoats...Not knocking your ability as an instructor, but neither you, or Artie, or the Beard can possibly teach someone "creativity"...

Not quite true...I can't bestow upon a student of mine creativity and imagination....but what I can and do teach students of mine, is a way to look at a table layout that will kick in the amount of creativity and imagination that they do have - and by them repeatedly using this method, over time their ability to be creative and imaginative will increase.


Only the basics can be taught...Watch the ball score, up table ahead, try and keep 'em down when behind, etc.

Once again - that's not true for me...I teach tons more than just "the basics".


Two players, of exactly the same skill level at one pocket, I will always take the one with the most imagination...And you both know, he will almost always win.


No, I would have to add something to your: "more imaginative player usually winning" statement, before agreeing...

He also has to be level headed, as was one of my qualifications for top-speed/correct One Pocket play, in my post on this thread 2 years ago....I'll use for a perfect example, K-Bill's earlier mentioned - Tony Chohan: great player, very imaginative, but, lacking in "level headedness" - causing him to lose a lot of games that he could/should have won.

- Ghost


`````
 

fred bentivegna

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Who is Houston_Ron?

Who is Houston_Ron?

Well Bill it's about anything we want to discuss I guess. I think you and I have different views of "squeezing" though. I'm not referring to knocking all the balls uptable to a corner when I say "squeezer", just a smart player playing the game correctly that's all, someone who doesn't shoot at white flags but also doesn't pass up a shot just to knock the balls uptable.

P.S. This thread was started by an Artie Bodendorfer nuthugger so he could glorify his hero, that's the primary motivation for the thread's origination. I'm certain that they will start chiming in here if this thread stays on the front page.

Dennis
Is that an alias? And, "Who is they?!!" (that is the classic line out of the great western, The Wild Bunch.) I have already voiced my opinion on this matter. As for credibility, I am the only guy on the forum, outside of Cardone who has played all the top contenders, Efren, Ronnie, Artie, Cooney, and Bugs, many, many, times, and for $200 a game and up.

Beard
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Is that an alias? And, "Who is they?!!" (that is the classic line out of the great western, The Wild Bunch.) I have already voiced my opinion on this matter. As for credibility, I am the only guy on the forum, outside of Cardone who has played all the top contenders, Efren, Ronnie, Artie, Cooney, and Bugs, many, many, times, and for $200 a game and up.

Beard
Regarding Houston Ron 1966, I don't know who the guy is Freddy but I think you must know him based on this post of his. He seems to have been there when these matches took place, at least he knows a lot about it.

"They" refers to the AB nuthuggers who think he walks on water but I think you already knew that:).

Houston_ron_1966 said:
The Truth About Artie B. and Grady M.



Artie played Grady on a 5' by 10' pool table $30.00 a game and Artie lost three games but Artie just started learning onepocket and Artie said he had no chance to beat Grady at that time. Artie started playing pool when he was eightteen years old not when he was a kid. The only two people that ever beat Artie playing onepocket on a 5' by 10' pool table was Poney and Grady when he was just learning and when Grady came up to northshore Artie played Grady $500.00 a game not a freeze out and they only played about five hours and Grady got four games ahead and Artie one three games in a row and Grady's backer quite one game winners. I don't call that beating someone and the next day Grady came into the club and wanted to play Artie for $100.00 a game and Artie said he will play somemore $500.00 a game or Grady can put up $10,000.00 or $20,000.00 freeze out and play 6 games ahead and then Artie told Grady to get a backer and he can win $50,000.00 or a $100,000.00 and would have had no chance to win. If Freddy had money back then and he would have backed Artie the whole city of Chicago would have backed Artie even the south side backers who backed Buggs would have backed Artie. The one thing that nobody knows that Artie had two styles of onepocket and Grady never seen Arties real game. Artie never went into gear playing Grady and calculated every shot. Nobody could have beat Artie six games ahead and nobody is going to play four thousand dollar freeze out and play for 2 1/2 days and then play $500.00 a game after 2 1/2 days. If Grady won why would he only want to play for $100.00 a game the next day and leave town when he could win a gold mine?

If somebody takes Arties bet for $30,000.00 on how to play perfect onepocket then the whole world will know how to really play the game and they will see why nobody could have beat Artie six games ahead. Take up a collection on onepocket.org and find out the truth about onepocket and let everyone improve there game. And once the truth is out about onepocket people will know how to play onepocket and they can take it to a higher level and women might start playing onepocket.

Freddy and Grady should quit stroking each other and put there energy into helping the onepocket game Freddy make up something again because we both know you wouldn't have lasted three hours watching me and grady play and the truth is you dont know what happened so admit the truth and Grady just went along with the made up story. Nobody really new how good Artie played because he didn't play in tournaments and monrow and T.R had no clue on how Artie played onepocket. If Grady won why wouldn't he come back and put up $10,000.00 or $20,000.00 and play Artie again? And Freddy is dreaming and you are part of the dream and you both deserve each other ....... Ab And i hope the two pappies have a long life together by hip by hip
 

SJDinPHX

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Is that an alias? And, "Who is they?!!" (that is the classic line out of the great western, The Wild Bunch.) I have already voiced my opinion on this matter. As for credibility, I am the only guy on the forum, outside of Cardone who has played all the top contenders, Efren, Ronnie, Artie, Cooney, and Bugs, many, many, times, and for $200 a game and up.

Beard
Not quite true Freddy, except for Efren and Bugs, I have played all the rest many times...for a LOT more than $200 a game.
You said you taught Efren, how to play one pocket, didn't you ? I can't say for sure, because Efren came on the scene during my hiatus. If he walked in the joint after I started playing again, he could have made a good score...:eek:

His shotmaking skills, may the ony thing you did not take into consideration..you were teaching him at YOUR level, maybe not realizing, how far he was above that.

Not putting you down, just pointing out the obvious...;)
 
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wincardona

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I honestly hate to disagree with any of you guys, really. But I have talked a little with Efren, and know what kind of guy he is. I also know how much he hates to lose (if that wasn't obvious). Anyway... my point...

I think it is unfair to say he shoots the wrong shots better than anybody. That is true, but I dont think they are the wrong shots. He's winning, right?

So, here is the crux of my point, IF Efren had lesser ability, I do think you would see him shoot quite a bit differently. I think he'd do what it took to win. It isn't really fair to say he shoots "wrong" shots when he is winning. I think you would have to KNOW he would shoot those same shots with less talent, and I personally don't think he would, but that is arguable. I'm not really saying he'd be the smartest ever, but if efren had Artie's same ability, I do think efren would be moving really really well. Perhaps not quite at Arties level, but who knows. But I think Efren's name gets taken out of the equation too quickly in these discussions simply because of his talent. I think if you asked Efren in different ambiguous scenarios, he'd say stuff like this is the right shot for me, but another player should not shoot that shot etc.

In short, it is very hard to effectively argue against winning in my estimation, because you assume the same shots would be taken under varying levels of talent. I don't think it is fair to do that.

Regards.
This is imo the most intelligent post in this thread, how can you argue against the man who has the highest win loss record of any top player ever, in terms of smartness, Reyes?

A smart shot for Reyes is the one he shoots, and yes he doesn't win every game he plays but he comes pretty close. Talking about Reyes in his prime.

As Reye's skills diminish he will have to change his style of play and if he can't do that he'll start losing. If and when he starts losing he'll then be recognized as not so smart of a player.:frus

Has anyone ever stopped to realize that Reyes just may know more than we do? ESPECIALLY ABOUT HIS OWN GAME.:frus

Billy I.
 

Scrzbill

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This is imo the most intelligent post in this thread, how can you argue against the man who has the highest win loss record of any top player ever, in terms of smartness, Reyes?

A smart shot for Reyes is the one he shoots, and yes he doesn't win every game he plays but he comes pretty close. Talking about Reyes in his prime.

As Reye's skills diminish he will have to change his style of play and if he can't do that he'll start losing. If and when he starts losing he'll then be recognized as not so smart of a player.:frus

Has anyone ever stopped to realize that Reyes just may know more than we do? ESPECIALLY ABOUT HIS OWN GAME.:frus

Billy I.
Efren is just in another world and I am personally glad that I have been privileged to meet him, play him, and watch him. As far his shot selection, if it is the winning play, its the right shot for Efren. His ability to control the cue his shot making, his imagination, just out of this world. The rest of us humans just have to play a different game.
 

Scrzbill

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Well Bill it's about anything we want to discuss I guess. I think you and I have different views of "squeezing" though. I'm not referring to knocking all the balls uptable to a corner when I say "squeezer", just a smart player playing the game correctly that's all, someone who doesn't shoot at white flags but also doesn't pass up a shot just to knock the balls uptable.

P.S. This thread was started by an Artie Bodendorfer nuthugger so he could glorify his hero, that's the primary motivation for the thread's origination. I'm certain that they will start chiming in here if this thread stays on the front page.

Dennis
Thanks for the explanation. When I think of squeezers, my first thought is Nick Varner and Artie. It takes a gun to get either one to shoot. I just thought the thread was about greatest imaginative player. Anyone who does not think Efren is the best in our era drinks the wrong cool aid. Yes I know you disagree. What do I know. I am a stuck horse who likes to fool around while I'm losing my money in the big game. I am only taking a few thousand this year just in case I run across a lawyer that wants to play.:cool::cool:
 

Scrzbill

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K-Bill....It's pretty obvious what hat you bought for me - one that says "Smartest One Pocket Player In The World" on the front..:heh...seeing as you got me the wrong size, would you mind getting me another one in a much bigger size..:

Thanks, Ghost
That might be a special order. Then of course the manufacture may have to buy a bigger machine to get the job done. Just wear your usual panty hose. Granny size. Do I still get the 11-5? I want a chance to get my money back.:frus:heh:lol
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I honestly hate to disagree with any of you guys, really. But I have talked a little with Efren, and know what kind of guy he is. I also know how much he hates to lose (if that wasn't obvious). Anyway... my point...

I think it is unfair to say he shoots the wrong shots better than anybody. That is true, but I dont think they are the wrong shots. He's winning, right?

So, here is the crux of my point, IF Efren had lesser ability, I do think you would see him shoot quite a bit differently. I think he'd do what it took to win. It isn't really fair to say he shoots "wrong" shots when he is winning. I think you would have to KNOW he would shoot those same shots with less talent, and I personally don't think he would, but that is arguable. I'm not really saying he'd be the smartest ever, but if efren had Artie's same ability, I do think efren would be moving really really well. Perhaps not quite at Arties level, but who knows. But I think Efren's name gets taken out of the equation too quickly in these discussions simply because of his talent. I think if you asked Efren in different ambiguous scenarios, he'd say stuff like this is the right shot for me, but another player should not shoot that shot etc.

In short, it is very hard to effectively argue against winning in my estimation, because you assume the same shots would be taken under varying levels of talent. I don't think it is fair to do that.

Regards.
TD,

Nobody is talking about equating winning with being an intelligent player. If you noticed I was responding to diamondave13 who did equate talent & creativity with intelligence. That's the context that you should read in my post.

That said, I will also say this: Many times in the endgame or even in midgame situations Efren shoots shots that cause him to lose games that he has pretty much locked up. That is not the mark of an intelligent one-pocket player. I do not cut any player slack because they win, I couldn't care less about that, I care about how they play in every situation, winning, losing, for their own cash or whatever scenario you can conjure up. As I said in my post you quoted, Efren is the greatest one-pocket player ever in my opinion but he's most definitely got flaws in his game. Just because he is the best doesn't change that. If you read post #7 in this thread you will see two scenarios described where Efren messed up simple layouts to end up losing. One of those layouts has been posted here and discussed.

Trying to defend Efren's mistakes because he's been so great for so long doesn't really bolster anyones case for him.

P.S. Why would you hate to disagree? That's how we learn:). Your post is well thought out and respectful, I just think it's misguided that's all. Incardona and I have already had this discussion and there's not much point in arguing it too much longer, at least with me. Great players can have flaws in their games, some people refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Dennis



diamondave13 said:
Efren Reyes, with his unbelieveable talent and creativity, must be smartest one pocket player of all time. Many defensive players don't think much of Efren's aggressive style but none of them ever beat him gambling. Cliff Joyner, who himself is one of the top one pocket players, has gotten a ball from Efren and couldn't win. Billy I. who is himself a great one pocket player, once said that Efren thinks ahead of ahead. One pocket is a pressure game and Efren keeps unbelievable pressure on the opponent. Ronnie Allen, when asked if he played Efren with both in their prime, who would win, said that Efren would probably win but would be too tired to spend the money. I rest my case.
Cowboy Dennis said:
DD13,

It seems you are confusing physical talent with mental talent. They are two entirely different things. Efren is the greatest one-pocket player I've ever seen but he is definitely not the smartest. He quite frequently shoots the wrong shot but his physical talent so many times overcomes his wrong shot choice that he wins anyway.

Nobody who truly knows one-pocket would say that Efren is the smartest player of the game even if nobody could beat him playing even. Of course, then you'd have to qualify that statement by stating whether or not Efren was playing on his own money. I don't figure that happened too much.

As I said here one time about Efren, he may not always shoot the right shot but he shoots the wrong shot better than anybody in history.

P.S. Anybody who thinks that a player who beats a man in Galveston and then loses to the same man at DCC and is too "smart" to play the same man a third time is a "smart" one-pocket player is an idiot. I'd be fighting through hell & fire to play the guy a 3rd time. That man is a nit, nothing else.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Thanks for the explanation. When I think of squeezers, my first thought is Nick Varner and Artie. It takes a gun to get either one to shoot. I just thought the thread was about greatest imaginative player. Anyone who does not think Efren is the best in our era drinks the wrong cool aid. Yes I know you disagree. What do I know. I am a stuck horse who likes to fool around while I'm losing my money in the big game. I am only taking a few thousand this year just in case I run across a lawyer that wants to play.:cool::cool:
Bill, I said in this thread and others that Efren is the greatest one-pocket player I've ever seen, we don't disagree on that.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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TD,

Nobody is talking about equating winning with being an intelligent player. If you noticed I was responding to diamondave13 who did equate talent & creativity with intelligence. That's the context that you should read in my post.

That said, I will also say this: Many times in the endgame or even in midgame situations Efren shoots shots that cause him to lose games that he has pretty much locked up. That is not the mark of an intelligent one-pocket player. I do not cut any player slack because they win, I couldn't care less about that, I care about how they play in every situation, winning, losing, for their own cash or whatever scenario you can conjure up. As I said in my post you quoted, Efren is the greatest one-pocket player ever in my opinion but he's most definitely got flaws in his game. Just because he is the best doesn't change that. If you read post #7 in this thread you will see two scenarios described where Efren messed up simple layouts to end up losing. One of those layouts has been posted here and discussed.

Trying to defend Efren's mistakes because he's been so great for so long doesn't really bolster anyones case for him.

P.S. Why would you hate to disagree? That's how we learn:). Your post is well thought out and respectful, I just think it's misguided that's all. Incardona and I have already had this discussion and there's not much point in arguing it too much longer, at least with me. Great players can have flaws in their games, some people refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Dennis
Dennis,

I like the baseball analogy somebody brought up. A guy like Roger Clemens relied 100% on his stuff when he was in his prime. He was cocky, would even throw at people and let people steal second and think nothing of it (because he knew he'd get the guy at the plate). Yet, when the stuff "degrades," they all turn into the crafty veterans to put the zeros up.

I guess billy's point about seeing if he plays smarter when his talent degrades significantly (now??) will be the most telling evidence. I personally think we may see efren "retire" kinda early, but in any event it will be interesting to see. But yes, I think we have all witnessed him shoot some funky shots. I tend to feel his biggest weakness is his patience.

But for me, the big picture is one in which his shot selection and general overall strategy has been nothing short of brilliant over his career. No reason to think this will change with declining ability, but we'll see.

Best.
 

fred bentivegna

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Let's clear this -- again

Let's clear this -- again

Not quite true Freddy, except for Efren and Bugs, I have played all the rest many times...for a LOT more than $200 a game.
You said you taught Efren, how to play one pocket, didn't you ? I can't say for sure, because Efren came on the scene during my hiatus. If he walked in the joint after I started playing again, he could have made a good score...:eek:

His shotmaking skills, may the ony thing you did not take into consideration..you were teaching him at YOUR level, maybe not realizing, how far he was above that.

Not putting you down, just pointing out the obvious...;)
Are you trying to start us again? I wish you would try to be as careful as I have been in my replies to you. What is, "not quite true?" I said, quote: I was the only guy on the forum besides Cardone to play all FIVE champions, many times and for AT LEAST $200 a game. Didnt you confirm what I said when you said you only played THREE out of the FIVE? And then my thin skin punctured when it appeared to be a despair of my $200 and up statement. You made that sound like I was a nit and wanted to one up me.

Finally, I never really said that I "taught" Efren, figuratively. I have said, maybe 1000 times, that Efren LEARNED the game from me and Incardona. I never taught him shit! When you say, "I cant say for sure because...." That sounds like,(a.) I might be delusional about Efren learning the game from me, or, (b) that the confirmation of such depends on your final opinion.
That he learned from me (by playing me almost every day for a year) and Cardone are Efren's words, not mine, and he has spoken them often.

Now insofar as me being too dumb to recognize his superior shotmaking skills, the first guy Efren played in Chicago was Billy Incardona. He gave Billy the 7 and the break on an easy table! I had also observed him demolishing the field at Red's in Houston a few months before. So it wasnt a stretch to figure out that he was something special.

Now, it looks to me, and I hope that I am wrong, that you still harbor some sort of automatic negative reaction to any aggressive declaration that I might make. Do you still take them personally? They certainly werent directed at you.

There is nothing wrong with you playing 3 champs out of the 5 for big money. That is admirable. Just dont try to tone down the reality of my 5 of the 5. Because that is what it seemed like to me.

Maybe I am a little touchy, but you should have expected that and been less confrontational. Call me all the names and joke butts you want, but I get uppity when my credibility is brought into question.

Beard

Maybe you coulda said, "Yeah, maybe playing all the people in question often, and for big money, should give you a leg up on the conversation. I know, because I played them all myself, except for Efren and Bugs."
 

SJDinPHX

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Are you trying to start us again? I wish you would try to be as careful as I have been in my replies to you. What is, "not quite true?" I said, quote: I was the only guy on the forum besides Cardone to play all FIVE champions, many times and for AT LEAST $200 a game. Didnt you confirm what I said when you said you only played THREE out of the FIVE? And then my thin skin punctured when it appeared to be a despair of my $200 and up statement. You made that sound like I was a nit and wanted to one up me.

Finally, I never really said that I "taught" Efren, figuratively. I have said, maybe 1000 times, that Efren LEARNED the game from me and Incardona. I never taught him shit! When you say, "I cant say for sure because...." That sounds like,(a.) I might be delusional about Efren learning the game from me, or, (b) that the confirmation of such depends on your final opinion.
That he learned from me (by playing me almost every day for a year) and Cardone are Efren's words, not mine, and he has spoken them often.

Now insofar as me being too dumb to recognize his superior shotmaking skills, the first guy Efren played in Chicago was Billy Incardona. He gave Billy the 7 and the break on an easy table! I had also observed him demolishing the field at Red's in Houston a few months before. So it wasnt a stretch to figure out that he was something special.

Now, it looks to me, and I hope that I am wrong, that you still harbor some sort of automatic negative reaction to any aggressive declaration that I might make. Do you still take them personally? They certainly werent directed at you.

There is nothing wrong with you playing 3 champs out of the 5 for big money. That is admirable. Just dont try to tone down the reality of my 5 of the 5. Because that is what it seemed like to me.

Maybe I am a little touchy, but you should have expected that and been less confrontational. Call me all the names and joke butts you want, but I get uppity when my credibility is brought into question.

Beard

Maybe you coulda said, "Yeah, maybe playing all the people in question often, and for big money, should give you a leg up on the conversation. I know, because I played them all myself, except for Efren and Bugs."


Did not mean for you to take offense...I am confused about one thing though...What I meant by 'not quite true', when was the figure "5" introduced ?...I was merely stating that I had played a "lot" (almost all) of the champions of my (our) era, both before, and after the hiatus, and I'm sure you're aware, there were a hell of a lot more than just five 'Champions'... i.e. "real strong" players..So maybe I should be upset that you didn't acknowledge me playing, maybe 18 out of 20, or so..and several dozen more just below top speed...;)

The $200 figure was not meant to infer that you were a nit...I think you are over-reacting just a tad. But, if anyone should know your 'sensitive' spots,.. well, I guess that would be moi...Peace..:sorry

SJD

PS..Don't be upset that I wished you "Happy Birthday"...:p ;) :p
 
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SJDinPHX

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Not hardly..:rolleyes:......now I have no problem saying that I would ask your opinion re. bank shots, but as for One Pocket...

I defer to no one, except the Duck (SJD) as being way over my own level of understanding, and correct decision making, in the game of One Pocket. He is definately the master..He has been my idol since I was just a kid, starting out...:cool:

- Ghost
Hmmmmm.... Thank you Ghoatsy..:cool: :p...Very sportsmanlike of you to acknowledge that fact...;)

PS..Larry, give him a cookie for that, please !!!
 
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jrhendy

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Flu shot

Flu shot

K-Bill....It's pretty obvious what hat you bought for me - one that says "Smartest One Pocket Player In The World" on the front..:heh...seeing as you got me the wrong size, would you mind getting me another one in a much bigger size..:D...:cool:

Thanks, Ghost
I hope the "Smartest One Pocket Player" remembers to get his flu shot this year.

Blowing a little cash to me would be better than being holed up in the room all week.
 

fred bentivegna

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Adorable

Adorable

I hope the "Smartest One Pocket Player" remembers to get his flu shot this year.

Blowing a little cash to me would be better than being holed up in the room all week.
John H, you are adorable. Methinks since I am not going to have a booth this year that you and old Ich (that's German for me) are going to hook up this year.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Yeah, yeah, alright...

Yeah, yeah, alright...

Did not mean for you to take offense...I am confused about one thing though...What I meant by 'not quite true', when was the figure "5" introduced ?...I was merely stating that I had played a "lot" (almost all) of the champions of my (our) era, both before, and after the hiatus, and I'm sure you're aware, there were a hell of a lot more than just five 'Champions'... i.e. "real strong" players..So maybe I should be upset that you didn't acknowledge me playing, maybe 18 out of 20, or so..and several dozen more just below top speed...;)

The $200 figure was not meant to infer that you were a nit...I think you are over-reacting just a tad. But, if anyone should know your 'sensitive' spots,.. well, I guess that would be moi...Peace..:sorry

SJD

PS..Don't be upset that I wished you "Happy Birthday"...:p ;) :p
Your last line says it all, so yeah, yeah, fuggitaboudit. Of course you played many top liners. The unsaid so far, truth, was that you and I were most likely regarded as famous "suckers" due to the ease that we would match up for large cash, but that didnt always follow the prescribed formula and miraculously shit out once in awhile.

Beard

Now are we clear on, I didnt "teach" Efren? He learned by playing me and Cardone. And as I noticed him "learning" I would often insert a bad habit for him to latch on to.
 
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