Slow Players

El Chapo

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I view slow play as a player that takes a long time to shoot and agree with beatle ref these players (have the nuts and bet where u want it). As far as moving balls uptable and out of play with a sizable lead in a game, I consider this to be managing the game and playing the score rather than slow play. I may slow my own pace of play down a bit with the lead in an attempt to have my opponent make an error and end that rack.
I totally agree with that. If a player wants to use his innings to push balls uptable, I am all for it, even if it does very much prolong games. I do not think the guys should have long per inning times though.

I do not think this has to be very intrusive. The cost of having a good time keeper and coordinating with the ref would be the problem. The players should all know they have say 1 minute, and hopefully they usually shoot within that time. A bell rings at 1 minute and if they do not shoot within 15 seconds it is a foul or hell even loss of game. But guys like orcollo probably would not understand the spirit of it and wait for the bell to ring every shot :heh:frus

I said one minute but i think shorter than that is much better. The irony is that I bet the players would play better pool.
 

El Chapo

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Or what about watching them?! Anyone have advice on how to deal with that?



I watched an Orcollo match not too long ago. Youtube has a 15 second fast forward button on my ipad. I was consistently hitting it three to four times as he came to the table for standard shots! Imagine the complicated shots.

I totally agree, I watch a lot of one pocket and it's tough to watch Orcollo. I would have no issue with the use of a shot clock.
It is unwatchable.

You have to be either a huge orcollo/PI player pool fan or sweat the match or it is 100% unwatchable.

Watching the best player in the world struggle in extremely standard positions is just complete and utter fan misery.

Here is what i think they should do, and i have proposed this before. There is a little bit of an objectivity problem, but heck...

When they hold big invitationals like the ones pat has had, state that "slow play was one of the criteria we used to select invited players". Guys like orcollo are get there kinda guys, enough money events like this per year he is missing he will speed his shit right up.

Just dont let slow players play in as many events as possible. It is horrendous for fans so there is not much arguing it from the players standpoint.
 

El Chapo

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Personally I think Tony Chohan should demand a clock -- of course for himself also --if he is challenging Orcollo again. As for the viewers, it is clearly why Pat Fleming ALWAYS has a shot clock for Accustats recorded One Pocket matches. All the One Pocket streamers would benefit from having a shot clock (assuming they could get someone to reliably run it of course).

In fact, anyone streaming does not even have to reinvent the wheel -- Pat has been doing this for many years now, and there is hardly a top tier player who has not played with his shot clock method -- either at DCC or any of the other events Accustats has recorded over the last 10 years or so.
I did not know that. Good for pat. That kinda kills my above point then.

I can see why Tony would not demand a shot clock, a sort of respect between players or something. But yeah, this is more about fans.

I think what happens to players is they think about paydays, but what they do NOT think about is the more people that watch, the bigger the paydays would be.

Someone needs to drive this into their collective heads. Because armed with this knowledge i do think they would make adjustments.
 

El Chapo

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Until our sport gets to the point where these men can make a decent living, do we really have any right to complain that they are playing too slowly? This tournament or gambling match is how they make a living. If they play fast and lose, they don't eat. So easy on the criticism of the slow play. Alex and Dennis are the slowest players. They are also the greatest players. Coincidence?

Let's ease up on the criticism about slow play. Maybe you're just smart and figure it out quicker.
That is exactly what i was addressing. It is pretty obvious in my opinion the key to being paid more is more viewership. People simply do not want to watch players labor over balls.

From what steve said they are playing under a clock at various events.

I kind of like many aspects of the chess style clock because it would get players back to the chair, which i think is an issue in pool. Santos in LA just sits at the table after he misses balls. He just sits there and looks at the table! I kid you not... I am talking the other guy is already up at the table and he just sits there and leans on the table.
 
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Island Drive

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That is exactly what i was addressing. It is pretty obvious in my opinion the key to being paid more is more viewership. People simply do not want to watch players labor over balls.From what steve said they are playing under a clock at various events.

I kind of like many aspects of the chess style clock because it would get players back to the chair, which i think is an issue in pool. Santos in LA just sits at the table after he misses balls. He just sits there and looks at the table! I kid you not... I am talking the other guy is already up at the table and he just sits there and leans on the table.
Bingo....................!!!!
 

darmoose

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As far as the problem of how to implement a time clock into OP events and tournaments, I like the chess style clocks as the most available, least expensive, and easily workable solutions.

In larger events like the Accustat matches the digital clock viewable to spectators and operated by a monitor is the best and works well.

In lesser events, streams, tournaments, and even individual gambling matches (where agreed upon) I would use the chess style clock where each player is responsible to press a button to start his opponents time. If he fails to do so then his opponent benefits, so what. I am not the least concerned that it may take 10 or 15 seconds for a player to get over to the time clock to start his opponents time, again so what. Some players who see that their opponent is already a fast player may even opt to not set the clock which is their choice and that's fine too.

Everything like this, changes to games, have a learning curve. It will take some time to acclimate players and TD's and event promoters as well as spectators to a time clock. The result, once the bugs are worked out will be great and will help OP on all fronts.

Players need to come to the understanding that this is good for their future and the longevity and growth of the game(s).

...And that's the truth.:D

P.S. I can't imagine a better place to test trial time clocks than a One Pocket. org MOT. Who better to try to better our game and put a stop to all the silly bad habits of some. and improve OP for audiences. This group has got to be the most interested and most knowledgeable OP group on the planet.
 
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androd

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I don't watch much pool, if it's something I can't fast forward, it's out.:frus
 

LSJohn

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As far as the problem of how to implement a time clock into OP events and tournaments, I like the chess style clocks as the most available, least expensive, and easily workable solutions.
Trying to find a way to reduce the amount of staring and thinking in order to shorten the amount of time it takes to complete a tournament is a worthwhile pursuit.

I am personally more interested in growing the universe of people interested in 1P. I think a worthwhile step in this direction would be the inclusion of a shot clock -- similar to Accu-Stats model -- only on the TV tables during streams.

I think this would increase -- maybe even dramatically -- the number of stream viewers within a reasonably short period of time.

For other tournament matches I like the idea of a chess clock but I'm concerned about the deficiencies noted by Skin in post #35 of this thread. I think chess clock is not ready for prime time at the current state of technology as I understand it.

(Good analysis, Skin... we missed you around here.)
 

beatle

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as el chapo says and i have been saying for years. if you have a tournament director with balls. he will just tell the slow players that they cant come unless they play the same speed as everyone else does. and they will get a warning or two and if then they arent fast they will be disqualified and not invited again.

they will speed up quickly. you dont need to ruin a good thing with clocks on people that dont need them. just punish the ones that do.

if you have a party do you invite the drunk that starts a fight all the time even if he is related. if you do you are a fool.
in every sport but pool i can think of those that cause problems are ostracized in some way.

it seems the american way now is to let the problem makers make all the others pay in some way for their transgressions.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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What is a reasonable time allowed for a shot, exception 1st shot after the break, 30 secs to 1min. somewhere in there. WPA allows 30 secs but does not govern OP.
Our concern is MOT which has always ran over. Players meeting could decide a time per shot, and how to proceed, whether it is for all matches or just slow matches.

Lets use 1 min. for an example: 1 min. / shot w/ 15 sec. warning/ allowing for 2 extensions of 30 secs./game.

So @ 45 secs. the opponent states 15 secs. and then the shooter has to shoot within 15 secs. or a point is deducted. Shooter can ask for an extension prior to time elapsing. This all seems fair to me and is the way many tournaments handle time per shot.

Patrick Johnson, may want to wade in on this on how your phone can be set up for the warning to sound at the end of the 15 secs. warning.

Again, I as an opponent playing someone, would only use this if they are continuing to take a boringly long time to shoot. The other side is that sometimes games take a long time even though players play at a reasonable pace. Whitey
 

oldschool1478

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What is a reasonable time allowed for a shot, exception 1st shot after the break, 30 secs to 1min. somewhere in there. WPA allows 30 secs but does not govern OP.
Our concern is MOT which has always ran over. Players meeting could decide a time per shot, and how to proceed, whether it is for all matches or just slow matches.

Lets use 1 min. for an example: 1 min. / shot w/ 15 sec. warning/ allowing for 2 extensions of 30 secs./game.

So @ 45 secs. the opponent states 15 secs. and then the shooter has to shoot within 15 secs. or a point is deducted. Shooter can ask for an extension prior to time elapsing. This all seems fair to me and is the way many tournaments handle time per shot.

Patrick Johnson, may want to wade in on this on how your phone can be set up for the warning to sound at the end of the 15 secs. warning.

Again, I as an opponent playing someone, would only use this if they are continuing to take a boringly long time to shoot. The other side is that sometimes games take a long time even though players play at a reasonable pace. Whitey
Dennis, the app I posted above allows custom timing.
 

catkins

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it is a totally different question in my eyes to impose a clock in a tournament and when gambling. If you can't deal with some one playing slow than that honestly seems like a good thing to do when playing you and if you cant fix that problem your self than your not working hard enough on your game in my opinion. In a tournament it only makes to impose a time limit for the entire match at at 30 minutes before the end of that time limit inform the players that who ever is ahead when time runs out wins!

jmo
chris
 

unoperro

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it is a totally different question in my eyes to impose a clock in a tournament and when gambling. If you can't deal with some one playing slow than that honestly seems like a good thing to do when playing you and if you cant fix that problem your self than your not working hard enough on your game in my opinion. In a tournament it only makes to impose a time limit for the entire match at at 30 minutes before the end of that time limit inform the players that who ever is ahead when time runs out wins!

jmo
chris
Imposing A time limit only encourages slow play by whom ever is ahead
 

darmoose

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Trying to find a way to reduce the amount of staring and thinking in order to shorten the amount of time it takes to complete a tournament is a worthwhile pursuit.

For other tournament matches I like the idea of a chess clock but I'm concerned about the deficiencies noted by Skin in post #35 of this thread. I think chess clock is not ready for prime time at the current state of technology as I understand it.

(Good analysis, Skin... we missed you around here.)
LSJ,

Allow me to alleviate your concerns.:lol

Skins noted "deficiencies" are actually not applicable as I see it. He is assuming that once a player completes his inning, he has to hurry over to the clock and stop it. He does not.

That type of clock used in chess is recording the remaining time left in a time limited game. This is not that.

The type of clock I invision has a prescribed time at which the alarm sounds, say, 60 seconds. At the alarm, the players follow the rules. The shooter's extension starts when the opponent sitting hits the button to restart the clock for another 60 seconds, or if no extension exists a one ball penalty is levied (to be paid when the shooter's inning is over), and the sitting player restarts the clock for another 60 seconds.

There is no need to hurry over to stop the clock after you conclude your inning. The only action to be taken at the conclusion of your inning is for you to start the clock for your opponent who is approaching the table. If you manage to do this in 2 seconds or 15 seconds that is up to you (or you have the option not to do it at all) if your opponent is already playing fast enough for you.

I don't see how this could be simpler or easier or fairer. If we are not willing to make the simple and necessary changes to solve problems and just wish to bitch about slow play, the game will not gain in popularity, as we all know it should.

"we must not let the quest for perfection be the enemy of good enough" :)
 

Skin

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LSJ,

Allow me to alleviate your concerns.:lol

Skins noted "deficiencies" are actually not applicable as I see it. He is assuming that once a player completes his inning, he has to hurry over to the clock and stop it. He does not.

That type of clock used in chess is recording the remaining time left in a time limited game. This is not that.

The type of clock I invision has a prescribed time at which the alarm sounds, say, 60 seconds. At the alarm, the players follow the rules. The shooter's extension starts when the opponent sitting hits the button to restart the clock for another 60 seconds, or if no extension exists a one ball penalty is levied (to be paid when the shooter's inning is over), and the sitting player restarts the clock for another 60 seconds.

There is no need to hurry over to stop the clock after you conclude your inning. The only action to be taken at the conclusion of your inning is for you to start the clock for your opponent who is approaching the table. If you manage to do this in 2 seconds or 15 seconds that is up to you (or you have the option not to do it at all) if your opponent is already playing fast enough for you.

I don't see how this could be simpler or easier or fairer. If we are not willing to make the simple and necessary changes to solve problems and just wish to bitch about slow play, the game will not gain in popularity, as we all know it should.

"we must not let the quest for perfection be the enemy of good enough" :)
I was responding to what I assumed Bob Jewett meant by using a chess clock since he described adding seconds for quick moves as they do in timed chess using the clock. That's why I thought of players rushing to stop the clock to save the limited allotted time for the game. Maybe I misunderstood. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

But your idea, darmoose, is a better option, imo. Maybe it will help, especially when you get a guy who looks them over all day, gets down, takes a couple of strokes, and then gets back up to rinse and repeat 3 or 4 times. That specific thing alone makes Orcollo unwatchable for me.

N.B. And howdy, LSJohn. I'm glad to have a little more free time now to hang out with you guys more.
 

darmoose

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I was responding to what I assumed Bob Jewett meant by using a chess clock since he described adding seconds for quick moves as they do in timed chess using the clock. That's why I thought of players rushing to stop the clock to save the limited allotted time for the game. Maybe I misunderstood. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

But your idea, darmoose, is a better option, imo. Maybe it will help, especially when you get a guy who looks them over all day, gets down, takes a couple of strokes, and then gets back up to rinse and repeat 3 or 4 times. That specific thing alone makes Orcollo unwatchable for me.

N.B. And howdy, LSJohn. I'm glad to have a little more free time now to hang out with you guys more.
Thanks Skin. I understand. Nothing wrong with what you were saying or repeating, it is just a different kind of clock.

Appreciate your opinion. I just wish we would do something to put an end to this stupidity exhibited by the likes of Dennis, Alex, Justin and others. We should start in our own tournaments to prove the point.

These little clocks can be had for 10-15 bucks.:)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Dennis, the app I posted above allows custom timing.
Oldschool, first it is nice seeing you involved, it has been awhile. Can it be set up in which an alarm (beep) sounds at 45 seconds signaling 15 secs. remaining which thereafter a deduction of a point occurs if the shooter has not shot within that time period, which is once again signaled by another beep at the end of the 1 min./shot allowable limited / shot. Player can state @ 45 secs or thereafter before the 15 sec. warning has exhausted for an extension if they have an extension available.

My statements are only related to MOT! One step at a time, I can not look past that. Fix our own before we try to fix all. If it works for MOT then thereafter other tournament sponsors & common day match ups may look at what we are doing. thanks, Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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