Slow Players

crabbcatjohn

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I saw a Facebook post today from the Break Room. They have new monitors on each table that have pictures of the players, scoring and shot clocks. Pretty cool
They were kinda advertising for the guy. I'll see if i can find the post and picture later
 

Skin

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What would the penalty be for violating the shot clock?
 

BRLongArm

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On shot clocks

On shot clocks

Until our sport gets to the point where these men can make a decent living, do we really have any right to complain that they are playing too slowly? This tournament or gambling match is how they make a living. If they play fast and lose, they don't eat. So easy on the criticism of the slow play. Alex and Dennis are the slowest players. They are also the greatest players. Coincidence?

Let's ease up on the criticism about slow play. Maybe you're just smart and figure it out quicker.
 

Island Drive

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Until our sport gets to the point where these men can make a decent living, do we really have any right to complain that they are playing too slowly? This tournament or gambling match is how they make a living. If they play fast and lose, they don't eat. So easy on the criticism of the slow play. Alex and Dennis are the slowest players. They are also the greatest players. Coincidence?

Let's ease up on the criticism about slow play. Maybe you're just smart and figure it out quicker.
Agreed....and there's two sides to this coin. At their skill level, when they do get a shot, the only complaining I hear is....''he ran 8 & out too fast". :heh
 

cincy_kid

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Until our sport gets to the point where these men can make a decent living, do we really have any right to complain that they are playing too slowly? This tournament or gambling match is how they make a living. If they play fast and lose, they don't eat. So easy on the criticism of the slow play. Alex and Dennis are the slowest players. They are also the greatest players. Coincidence?

Let's ease up on the criticism about slow play. Maybe you're just smart and figure it out quicker.
You know I pretty much agree with almost everything you say on here and I do see what you are saying about if they play fast and lose, they don't eat, I get it.

I think, however, that one of the things that would help one pocket become a more popular game and be more fan-friendly is to have the game go a bit faster. The games can be long, but the time in between shots probably needs to be managed somehow.

After all, more fans = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money for everybody, including the players!

And yes, they are the best 2 players and probably slowest 2, but I would be willing to bet if they had a 1 minute shot clock they would still be at the top of the pack!

As always just my opinion....
 

darmoose

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You know I pretty much agree with almost everything you say on here and I do see what you are saying about if they play fast and lose, they don't eat, I get it.

I think, however, that one of the things that would help one pocket become a more popular game and be more fan-friendly is to have the game go a bit faster. The games can be long, but the time in between shots probably needs to be managed somehow.

After all, more fans = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money for everybody, including the players!

And yes, they are the best 2 players and probably slowest 2, but I would be willing to bet if they had a 1 minute shot clock they would still be at the top of the pack!

As always just my opinion....
I agree totally with you, CK, on this viewpoint. So long as the rules are the same for everyone, and they know the rules going in, I don't see anyone being disadvantaged by a reasonable time clock. I would love to see a time clock on all streamed events and all tournaments where doing so is possible.

I think your description of a one minute clock, with 3 one minute extensions per game is perfect.

As for how to apply this rule, I would suggest that if a player goes past the one minute, he automatically goes into his first extension, and each time thereafter he goes past a one minute mark he goes automatically into his second and then third extensions.

Once he has used up his three extensions, going past the one minute clock time results in him having to immediately stop, spot a ball, then he has a further one minute to shoot.

I am aware that some have suggested that the penalty for exceeding the allotted time is loss of turn (and maybe even a ball as well). I think this is a severe penalty probably causing loss of game and is too impactful. I think penalizing slow play as described above will get the proper attention.

I also agree with the idea that instituting such a rule will help to promote one pocket viewing and playing.

Lastly, it is encouraging to see that most on here are knowledgeable enough and intelligent enough to differentiate between slow play and style of play. I don't think OP is meant to always be played in 15 minutes. If one runs 8 and out in 5 minutes once in a while that's fine. If a game takes on a more defensive nature and lasts longer than usual that's also fine. Requiring players to move along at an acceptable pace is fine. Setting a time limit for length of game is not fine.

I do think that where a time clock is used, no two hour or three hour limitation on matches will be necessary.

:)
 
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Skin

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Once he has used up his three extensions, going past the one minute clock time results in him having to immediately stop, spot a ball, then he has a further one minute to shoot.

:)
I considered this when wondering about the penalty. Suppose the guy is in a trap and he gets to spot a ball after using up all his extensions but still stays at the table. Then he shoots the spotted ball in and runs out. That's all he needed. A crime, I tell you! :) For that reason I didn't like it when considering the penalty for a shot clock violation.
 

darmoose

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I considered this when wondering about the penalty. Suppose the guy is in a trap and he gets to spot a ball after using up all his extensions but still stays at the table. Then he shoots the spotted ball in and runs out. That's all he needed. A crime, I tell you! :) For that reason I didn't like it when considering the penalty for a shot clock violation.
Good point, Skin. Perhaps he should be given his next one minute period to shoot, and then spot his penalty ball. I like it, and it conforms to all other penalty procedures where balls are spotted at the conclusion of his inning.

:)
 

beatle

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the top players make their money from tournaments, endorsements, and video.

if they play too slowly, they lose their audience and all their income goes out the window as it comes ultimately from the spectators.

the whole house of cards comes down with them. pool is boring to watch for most anyway.
 

Bob Jewett

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One solution to the shot clock problem is a chess clock. There are various ways to handle the penalty if one player runs out of time. Modern clocks allow adding some number of seconds for each inning, so if you play safes briskly you don't get automatically killed by the clock. And if you need to take three minutes to think about a shot, that's up to you.

The best feature is that the players run the clock themselves so the TD does not have to provide staff.
 

Skin

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One solution to the shot clock problem is a chess clock. There are various ways to handle the penalty if one player runs out of time. Modern clocks allow adding some number of seconds for each inning, so if you play safes briskly you don't get automatically killed by the clock. And if you need to take three minutes to think about a shot, that's up to you.

The best feature is that the players run the clock themselves so the TD does not have to provide staff.
The player-operated chess clock concept doesn't seem workable to me for these reasons.

The clock has to be placed somewhere that is fair for both players. This is easy in chess and other clocked games b/c the players are seated at a table and the stop button is within easy reach after the move is completed.

But with pool, the player may be positioned anywhere around the table, and depending on where he shoots from, he may be 9 additional feet from the clock (foot rail v. head rail, e.g.), assuming the clock is positioned on a stand equidistant from the chairs.

Add to that the disadvantage that a player like Mizerak or Buddy Hall in their later years would have v. a nimbler, younger player in getting to the clock to stop it.

Then you have also the unseemly spectacle of players hustling like hell all over the place to get to the clock after their shots in order to conserve time.

&tc.

Personally, I just don't see how to use that kind of clock system effectively unless there are multiple stop buttons around the table - perhaps located under the pockets or somewhere they can't be accidentally pressed. Although, I guess, each player could be given some kind of remote control device to stop the clock after his shot, but that also has inherent problems.
 
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Bob Jewett

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The player-operated chess clock concept doesn't seem workable to me for these reasons.

The clock has to be placed somewhere that is fair for both players. This is easy in chess and other clocked games b/c the players are seated at a table and the stop button is within easy reach after the move is completed.

But with pool, the player may be positioned anywhere around the table, and depending on where he shoots from, he may be 9 additional feet from the clock (foot rail v. head rail, e.g.), assuming the clock is positioned on a stand equidistant from the chairs.

Add to that the disadvantage that a player like Mizerak or Buddy Hall in their later years would have v. a nimbler, younger player in getting to the clock to stop it.

Then you have also the unseemly spectacle of players hustling like hell all over the place to get to the clock after their shots in order to conserve time.

&tc.

Personally, I just don't see how to use that kind of clock system effectively unless there are multiple stop buttons around the table - perhaps located under the pockets or somewhere they can't be accidentally pressed. Although, I guess, each player could be given some kind of remote control device to stop the clock after his shot, but that also has inherent problems.
I see the single clock as an advantage: it gets the player back to his seat and he won't be dawdling over the table, complaining about his bad luck and how the gods are against him, and sighting over the position he left to see if he got safe while the other player is trying to shoot.

I think it's worth a try. Or we can have tournaments that take an extra day.
 

darmoose

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Do these notoriously slow professional players, Dennis, Alex, Justin, etc. take as much time when they are playing other games? I don't know cause i won't watch any other games, got no interest in em.

I am for shot clocks in all their streamed events and tournaments. I don't think it should be up to the contestants, as we all are part of the pool community and have a stake in the future of one pocket. i believe that in the absence of a governing authority, each event organizer should institute a shot clock format until it becomes the norm. After all, they are selling a product and the spectators want it to be sped up a bit.

Does anybody not want that?:rolleyes:
 

Billy Jackets

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If you give most great pool players more than 1 thing to think about at a time, whatever does not involve pocketing the ball, will probably suffer immensely.
Not that they are dumb , but they are so focused on that one idea , nothing much else gets in , thats part of why they play better than us.
Half the time I am playing, my mind is not even on pool.
I'm thinking about family problems , things I should be fixing instead of goofing off, etc.
 

LSJohn

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After all, more fans = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money for everybody, including the players!

And yes, they are the best 2 players and probably slowest 2, but I would be willing to bet if they had a 1 minute shot clock they would still be at the top of the pack!

As always just my opinion....
I agree with both you and Joe. I can't explain how that's possible, unless I'm just wimpin' out. :eek:

I would guess that Ray Hansen has looked into attitudes among the players about shot clocks. If so, we can guess what it means that he hasn't installed them. Maybe he will see this and weigh in. I think shot clocks would increase his revenue IF it didn't much reduce the best players' appearances.

On a related subject, Roberto is adopting the pace of his two heroes.
 

LSJohn

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I do think that where a time clock is used, no two hour or three hour limitation on matches will be necessary.

:)
With reasonable use of a shot clock I would never complain about the length of a match. If the games just happen to develop that way, no problem, as long as I don't have time to fix a sandwich between shots.
 
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