Scott/efren again

stevelomako

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I thought about something with this match.

Is this the one they played in Phoenix where they were both paid to play (exhibition match) and no one got extra for winning?


I'm not trying to take away anything from either player but I was told that neither player was super serious in shot selections, that they were (Scott always is anyway) being mainly offensive minded first.

If you were going to watch or pay to watch these two play you'd want to see them trying to run out such as Scott did after Efrens' well thought out :eek: safe, not strangle each other like Artie would do.

That would help explain a little in why some shots weren't taken (such as safety's and intenionals) as to drag the game and match out long.



So that got me thinking:

It would be interesting to set up something at DCC or Tunica or Vegas and have it taped where there's a table lay-out such as this one (do one pocket and banks) and a few players (such as Freddie, Artie, Dr. Bill, Efren, Scott, Brumback etc.) come in, one at a time to look over the situation then choose and explain their shot. Like on here but it's better in real time at a real table with real players.

Not to see who's right or wrong but to show the different options that players could have.

I think that would be a decent instructional tool for people, looking into the thinking of alot of great players.
 

wincardona

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Pretty damn funny, to say the least, when somebody says they like to make a final statement by saying something intelligent, then in that final sentence where they feebly tried to say you're wrong - they can't spell the word you're...:rolleyes:...:sorry

- Gh:cool:st
You're right, but I figured out where you would be at your best, in terms of coaching? You would be an excellent spelling coach.:D I'll phone Artie and let him know you're available for the position.;) If that's ok with you.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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I thought about something with this match.

Is this the one they played in Phoenix where they were both paid to play (exhibition match) and no one got extra for winning?


I'm not trying to take away anything from either player but I was told that neither player was super serious in shot selections, that they were (Scott always is anyway) being mainly offensive minded first.

If you were going to watch or pay to watch these two play you'd want to see them trying to run out such as Scott did after Efrens' well thought out :eek: safe, not strangle each other like Artie would do.

That would help explain a little in why some shots weren't taken (such as safety's and intenionals) as to drag the game and match out long.



So that got me thinking:

It would be interesting to set up something at DCC or Tunica or Vegas and have it taped where there's a table lay-out such as this one (do one pocket and banks) and a few players (such as Freddie, Artie, Dr. Bill, Efren, Scott, Brumback etc.) come in, one at a time to look over the situation then choose and explain their shot. Like on here but it's better in real time at a real table with real players.

Not to see who's right or wrong but to show the different options that players could have.

I think that would be a decent instructional tool for people, looking into the thinking of alot of great players.
Funny you mentioned that, that's what I have been doing for over 30 years doing commentary. I've sat opposite of a lot of the worlds greatest players doing commentary, and yes that helped me as well as others , in terms of improving our game from a thinking standpoint.

Dr. Bill
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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You're right, but I figured out where you would be at your best, in terms of coaching? You would be an excellent spelling coach. I'll phone Artie and let him know you're available for the position.;) If that's ok with you.
Dr. Bill

It's ok with me - but make sure and tell him that he needs so much work that my price would have to be the same as he wants for giving One Pocket lessons - $30,000...:eek:...:heh...:D

- Ghost

PS, And by the way Witch Doctor Billy...I can't shake this flu - ya think maybe you could send me one of your exotic, never fails, curative potions, made of crushed bat wings, or ground up Malaysian centipedes, or the like...:eek:
 

wincardona

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Well, that makes 2 at least (you and reyes), that is strong evidence against that kick. I like that kick, and I still like it. The cb is lying in an almost ideal position (for me anyway) to judge that kick, being almost the mirror image of the ob. I'm not saying i'd hit it perfect every time, but i like it. Look at it this way, not sure how that table was playing, but on most tables you simply hit the middle of the end rail with center ball and the cb will be where it is at now but on the other side of the table. How does that look? That shot at a slow pace tends to come very long off that second rail too, which helps keep it on the left side of the 10.

I'll also note, if you hit that kick real bad (if you get a short kick off the end rail), you have the chance to make the 10 -- there is definitely a little hidden error there, however slight.

Anyway, Efren didn't choose it, but considering the shot he DID choose, i'm not sure that is good evidence against the kick in this case. But the Dr. Bill evidence is always compelling.

Larry, can you mention is words what Efren did after Scott put him behind the 8 in that picture. I was thinking kick at that ball uptable (if he could not see it), I wondered if he did that, if you know.
Timdog, being the stickler that I am I had to go to the table to experiment with this kick, and it is actually a worse kick then I originally thought it was.:sorry Both the 10 ball and the cue ball are only 6" from the pocket mirroring one another. From this position you also have bridging problems, because of the pocket. I shot this shot 6 times and was only successful once with the kick. I for certain wouldn't shoot this shot in a game, and I definitely wouldn't shoot it in a situation like this one. :sorry

Another thing of most importance when shooting shots of this kind (shots that you jeopardize the game with but can't win the game with)you must avoid shooting these types of shots at all cost, especially if they carry less then an 80% success rate, unless your forced to shoot them.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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It's ok with me - but make sure and tell him that he needs so much work that my price would have to be the same as he wants for giving One Pocket lessons - $30,000...:eek:.....:D

- Ghost

PS, And by the way Witch Doctor Billy...I can't shake this flu - ya think maybe you could send me one of your exotic, never fails, curative potions, made of crushed bat wings, or ground up Malaysian centipedes, or the like...:eek:
For sure, really can't get a hold of any of the ingredients you requested, but i'm sure I can round up some gas-x along with some prozac, i'll crush them up for you but you're going to have to mix it with that chicken broth you're drinking. This remedy will help you deal with the pressure you're under and give you that "I don't give a shit" attitude, which should help you get through this tough time.:D

If I can be of any help in the future, just let me know.;)

Dr. Bill
 

timdog24

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Timdog, being the stickler that I am I had to go to the table to experiment with this kick, and it is actually a worse kick then I originally thought it was.:sorry Both the 10 ball and the cue ball are only 6" from the pocket mirroring one another. From this position you also have bridging problems, because of the pocket. I shot this shot 6 times and was only successful once with the kick. I for certain wouldn't shoot this shot in a game, and I definitely wouldn't shoot it in a situation like this one. :sorry

Another thing of most importance when shooting shots of this kind (shots that you jeopardize the game with but can't win the game with)you must avoid shooting these types of shots at all cost, especially if they carry less then an 80% success rate, unless your forced to shoot them.

Dr. Bill
1 for 6, what are you blind:D?
I've been in total agreement with you that the Ghost's 2 rail at the 5/8 is the best way here. My thinking that the kick at the 10 might be a little easier (but not a better option) than kicking at the 5/8 is because it's a shot that comes up all the time in one pocket and one that I'm very comfortable with. The other kick doesn't come up nearly as much and, even though it's not hard to execute, can be dogged (at least by guys like me). But, it must be laying a lot worse than I pictured if your %age was below the Mendoza line.

You made a strong point in your last paragraph about shooting shots you can't win with but can lose with. Sometimes I forget this law and it's good to be reminded.
 

wincardona

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1 for 6, what are you blind:D?
I've been in total agreement with you that the Ghost's 2 rail at the 5/8 is the best way here. My thinking that the kick at the 10 might be a little easier (but not a better option) than kicking at the 5/8 is because it's a shot that comes up all the time in one pocket and one that I'm very comfortable with. The other kick doesn't come up nearly as much and, even though it's not hard to execute, can be dogged (at least by guys like me). But, it must be laying a lot worse than I pictured if your %age was below the Mendoza line.

You made a strong point in your last paragraph about shooting shots you can't win with but can lose with. Sometimes I forget this law and it's good to be reminded.[/QUOTEd
Anytime you shoot a shot that you can easily lose with but can't win with in a close game, you either must be a huge favorite to succeed with it, or you must be able to win with it as long as you keep your percentage of succeeding at 50% or higher. Unless your forced to shoot it. The 10 ball kick doesn't fall within these guidelines, for several reasons.

I think if you set this shot up and are accurate with the set up of the shot (10 ball 1-1/2" off rail) ( cue ball 6" from pocket near rail) you'll see that the angle going into the 10 ball is a difficult one and the target is very small.

These types of shots, in terms of difficulty should be avoided, especially when the penalty for failing is large, as it is here.

Dr. Bill
 
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Fast Lenny

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May 15, 2005
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I thought about something with this match.

Is this the one they played in Phoenix where they were both paid to play (exhibition match) and no one got extra for winning?


I'm not trying to take away anything from either player but I was told that neither player was super serious in shot selections, that they were (Scott always is anyway) being mainly offensive minded first.

If you were going to watch or pay to watch these two play you'd want to see them trying to run out such as Scott did after Efrens' well thought out :eek: safe, not strangle each other like Artie would do.

That would help explain a little in why some shots weren't taken (such as safety's and intenionals) as to drag the game and match out long.



So that got me thinking:

It would be interesting to set up something at DCC or Tunica or Vegas and have it taped where there's a table lay-out such as this one (do one pocket and banks) and a few players (such as Freddie, Artie, Dr. Bill, Efren, Scott, Brumback etc.) come in, one at a time to look over the situation then choose and explain their shot. Like on here but it's better in real time at a real table with real players.

Not to see who's right or wrong but to show the different options that players could have.

I think that would be a decent instructional tool for people, looking into the thinking of alot of great players.
This is not true, expenses were paid, the match was an exhibition of sorts but the winner got $5,000 I believe or it could have been $4000 to the winner and $1000 to the loser, I will ask Scott later. People take too much away from Scott and his accomplishments like saying this was just an exhibition but forget to realize the winner receives $5,000, and by the way it was not an even split between the players. Both players played hard and were trying to beat the other, there was some excellent play in the match and anyone who has the video will tell you that and anyone there will tell you the mood was serious between the two of them, both were trying to get the money and also the pride factor of it all. I am not sure who told you otherwise but whoever it was must not have been there.

If it was just another exhibition then why was Efren not so happy about the jump cue incident and Scott so excited to finally beat Efren? Efren also was not jovial after being beat, his mood would have been different if both were just paid to play. Another thing people seem to forget is since that time I think Scott and Efren have matched up 2-3 times with Scott getting the cash, people will downplay it and say it was only $2,000 or $4,000 or whatever but they were gambling even for a decent amount. I believe this year it might be possible that those 2 will play again for a much more substantial amount, if Scott wins I think the next excuse from people will be he played an over the hill Efren. If you watched the Accu-Stats gambling match between these 2 for the cash you will see that this match had a higher level of play by bother players then that one did I feel. Maybe someone who has seen both can chime in with their opinion.

P.S. I know you were not trying to take anything away from either guy but I wanted to clarify some things about that match.
 

lll

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This is not true, expenses were paid, the match was an exhibition of sorts but the winner got $5,000 I believe or it could have been $4000 to the winner and $1000 to the loser, I will ask Scott later. People take too much away from Scott and his accomplishments like saying this was just an exhibition but forget to realize the winner receives $5,000, and by the way it was not an even split between the players. Both players played hard and were trying to beat the other, there was some excellent play in the match and anyone who has the video will tell you that and anyone there will tell you the mood was serious between the two of them, both were trying to get the money and also the pride factor of it all. I am not sure who told you otherwise but whoever it was must not have been there.

If it was just another exhibition then why was Efren not so happy about the jump cue incident and Scott so excited to finally beat Efren? Efren also was not jovial after being beat, his mood would have been different if both were just paid to play. Another thing people seem to forget is since that time I think Scott and Efren have matched up 2-3 times with Scott getting the cash, people will downplay it and say it was only $2,000 or $4,000 or whatever but they were gambling even for a decent amount. I believe this year it might be possible that those 2 will play again for a much more substantial amount, if Scott wins I think the next excuse from people will be he played an over the hill Efren. If you watched the Accu-Stats gambling match between these 2 for the cash you will see that this match had a higher level of play by bother players then that one did I feel. Maybe someone who has seen both can chime in with their opinion.

P.S. I know you were not trying to take anything away from either guy but I wanted to clarify some things about that match.
lenny
i have both matches although havent seen the accustats in a while
i would say that this match at least to me you could feel the tension that scott wanted to prove it was time to pass the baton
i dont think either player took this match lightly
i know you got scotts back but whatever happens in the past or future matches
you have to admit efren is not in his prime
a 90 or 85% efren can still beat 95% of everyone
BUT
i think scott is entering into the ethereal space that only few have experienced
into each generation a star is born
let the next generation argue over who was better
ronnie
efren
scott
you get my point
jmho
icbw
 

stevelomako

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Messages
1,057
This is not true, expenses were paid, the match was an exhibition of sorts but the winner got $5,000 I believe or it could have been $4000 to the winner and $1000 to the loser, I will ask Scott later. People take too much away from Scott and his accomplishments like saying this was just an exhibition but forget to realize the winner receives $5,000, and by the way it was not an even split between the players. Both players played hard and were trying to beat the other, there was some excellent play in the match and anyone who has the video will tell you that and anyone there will tell you the mood was serious between the two of them, both were trying to get the money and also the pride factor of it all. I am not sure who told you otherwise but whoever it was must not have been there.

If it was just another exhibition then why was Efren not so happy about the jump cue incident and Scott so excited to finally beat Efren? Efren also was not jovial after being beat, his mood would have been different if both were just paid to play. Another thing people seem to forget is since that time I think Scott and Efren have matched up 2-3 times with Scott getting the cash, people will downplay it and say it was only $2,000 or $4,000 or whatever but they were gambling even for a decent amount. I believe this year it might be possible that those 2 will play again for a much more substantial amount, if Scott wins I think the next excuse from people will be he played an over the hill Efren. If you watched the Accu-Stats gambling match between these 2 for the cash you will see that this match had a higher level of play by bother players then that one did I feel. Maybe someone who has seen both can chime in with their opinion.

P.S. I know you were not trying to take anything away from either guy but I wanted to clarify some things about that match.
Thanks for chiming in because you would know or would be able to find out.

There were so many different stories out there about it I wouldn't mind you finding out for sure.

I aint never going to take anything away from Scott. I'd say we're pretty good friends (the sob owes me alot of cigarettes) and I wish there were more avenues to showcase his talent.

He's definately in a very, very select group of individuals.


Here's a little story you can ask him about. Around 10 years ago in the club I had at the time, I made a game with Scott and another kid Chad. I told Scott he could give him 10-5 and his scratches for $100. Don't you know Chad wins the first 5 games and Scott comes to me and says the kid doesn't miss and thinks I put him in a trap. I said "Here's the 5 hundred you're stuck, now I'm staking you, quit being a baby and go beat the kid". He's like HUH? Thinks about it for a minute, says "Nah, thats OK" and goes to the back and robs the kid the next 10 games in a row. A little confidence goes a long way.
 

Fast Lenny

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lenny
i have both matches although havent seen the accustats in a while
i would say that this match at least to me you could feel the tension that scott wanted to prove it was time to pass the baton
i dont think either player took this match lightly
i know you got scotts back but whatever happens in the past or future matches
you have to admit efren is not in his prime
a 90 or 85% efren can still beat 95% of everyone
BUT
i think scott is entering into the ethereal space that only few have experienced
into each generation a star is born
let the next generation argue over who was better
ronnie
efren
scott
you get my point
jmho
icbw
I totally agree that Efren is not in his prime, was not in 2008 either I believe so 4 years later the match might not mean so much but just when we think Efren is done he surprises us by winning it all again.
 
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