Rules Update Conversation

Island Drive

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As with all rules, change does not come easily, especially when your dealing with a game that's roots are gambling and moving, identical to pro card players. Getting a plethora of ideas from such a mix of men in the USA, will work it's way thru time. Like in 14.1 spotting a ball in the middle of the table in a certain situation that comes up not often, who thought of that? Discussions we're having are good and in the long run help. I realize, if it wasn't for the past, with Mosconi, and all those before them, I doubt the game of 9 ball would of been world wide like it is now, and the choice of Luke Riches to Join with the BCA and also create the Jr. Event along side the pro event/just Today. With NH Steve's mind of listening and putting all the pieces/thoughts together, we're in good hands and we'll get thru this to benefit of the game first....the ball won't roll down hill much longer. Who was that table mechanic anywho. ? :unsure:
 

darmoose

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when many people dont agree with you
even someone as respected as bob jewett
and you think THEY are wrong
maybe you should rethink your position
just sayin
you and I don't agree with half the country.....
get an original thought....
just saying...
 

darmoose

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I think changes to how fouls are handled could speed up the game and potentially make it more exciting to watch, but any of these ides you would have to try them out and see how they work -- you can't just think up an idea and modify the general rules of a game that has essentially been played the same way for close to a hundred years. And it's a game that is growing in popularity as it is.

darmoose seems to think the way fouls are handled now helps the stronger players. Well I'm inclined to think almost every rule "helps the stronger players". Because they are better players and they get more out of whatever the game and it's rules offer. Unless you come up with more random elements or handicap elements, better players are going to get more out of every rule. In my opinion :)
Steve,

First, I fully understand your caution and agree that changes are a serious matter that should be considered and tried out over a period of time before any implementation. I also think that your statement above about stronger players being able to better take advantage of all rules is obviously true.

The best example I can think of is what happened to nine ball. The game used to involve "pushouts and options to shoot or return the shot" and was played that way well into the seventies as I recall. I have no idea when it started or how long it was played that way, but I know that when asked many if not most old timers will say the game was so much better then. Couse, that change was made for TV and to speed up the game, not to improve it. Kids (those under 60) have never played a game with an option to shoot or return the shot. All they know is gimmee BIH. With that change nine ball went from a game that involved strategy needing to out smart your opponent to what we see today which is break and run endless racks, what we all find boring and cannot watch, let alone play. I would venture to say that if pushout nine ball still existed many of us would still play and watch it occasionally. I know and play with many guys that never played anything but nine ball til maybe 5 years ago, and today they never play anything but OP.

Anyway, my point is that having NO experience with "pushout and the option" shapes opinions and tends to promote "tunnel vision" and fear of the unknown to an extent. My opinion is plainly that OP is a game that attempts to separate and distinguish itself from all other games, it is a game of infinite variety, and strategies which is why we love it. What is happening today to change the nature of the game to it being dominated by players who's only strategy is "I can make any shot and I can run eight balls faster than you can", and "if I miss we will just rack'em and start over", is not good for the game. Defensive skills and not shooting at your hole every trip to the table is frowned on. Players whose games take a little longer are under pressure to shoot at your hole and play more aggressively. This has the potential to force everything but aggression from the game (think Artie). Kids learning to play OP no nothing but shoot at your hole (reminds me of nine and ten ball). (ugh)

Pro's like Dennis and Alex (and many others) play a different game than all of us, and they can't be reigned in (and that's fine), but, players who play as offensively as they don't need help that allows them to escape consequences when they are put into trouble . Rules should be made with us in mind, not them. They will have NO problem adapting and exploiting any rules devised.

The "option" rule won't be used on pocket scratches (BIH), only some of the time on lag shots failing to get a rail, but ALWAYS on tap fouls. Benefits will be removing the "escape hatch" and shortening the game, as Whitey said by 25% for each tap battle, and leveling the playing field a bit. This type of adjustment is exactly what led to changes in baseballs and bats, lengths of golf courses and other sports.

I know that no change is forthcoming, but argument and discussion is reasonable and worthwhile. In Philly, I played your silly :LOL: game (cost me $100), and so, you owe me. Should we meet in Chicago I am gonna want you to try "Option OP" (we'll call it "OOPS");)

Thanks for listening, carry on.
 

vapros

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One more time - how many taps have you witnessed since Christmas? No one answers . . .
 

Island Drive

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Steve,

First, I fully understand your caution and agree that changes are a serious matter that should be considered and tried out over a period of time before any implementation. I also think that your statement above about stronger players being able to better take advantage of all rules is obviously true.

The best example I can think of is what happened to nine ball. The game used to involve "pushouts and options to shoot or return the shot" and was played that way well into the seventies as I recall. I have no idea when it started or how long it was played that way, but I know that when asked many if not most old timers will say the game was so much better then. Couse, that change was made for TV and to speed up the game, not to improve it. Kids (those under 60) have never played a game with an option to shoot or return the shot. All they know is gimmee BIH. With that change nine ball went from a game that involved strategy needing to out smart your opponent to what we see today which is break and run endless racks, what we all find boring and cannot watch, let alone play. I would venture to say that if pushout nine ball still existed many of us would still play and watch it occasionally. I know and play with many guys that never played anything but nine ball til maybe 5 years ago, and today they never play anything but OP.

Anyway, my point is that having NO experience with "pushout and the option" shapes opinions and tends to promote "tunnel vision" and fear of the unknown to an extent. My opinion is plainly that OP is a game that attempts to separate and distinguish itself from all other games, it is a game of infinite variety, and strategies which is why we love it. What is happening today to change the nature of the game to it being dominated by players who's only strategy is "I can make any shot and I can run eight balls faster than you can", and "if I miss we will just rack'em and start over", is not good for the game. Defensive skills and not shooting at your hole every trip to the table is frowned on. Players whose games take a little longer are under pressure to shoot at your hole and play more aggressively. This has the potential to force everything but aggression from the game (think Artie). Kids learning to play OP no nothing but shoot at your hole (reminds me of nine and ten ball). (ugh)

Pro's like Dennis and Alex (and many others) play a different game than all of us, and they can't be reigned in (and that's fine), but, players who play as offensively as they don't need help that allows them to escape consequences when they are put into trouble . Rules should be made with us in mind, not them. They will have NO problem adapting and exploiting any rules devised.

The "option" rule won't be used on pocket scratches (BIH), only some of the time on lag shots failing to get a rail, but ALWAYS on tap fouls. Benefits will be removing the "escape hatch" and shortening the game, as Whitey said by 25% for each tap battle, and leveling the playing field a bit. This type of adjustment is exactly what led to changes in baseballs and bats, lengths of golf courses and other sports.

I know that no change is forthcoming, but argument and discussion is reasonable and worthwhile. In Philly, I played your silly :LOL: game (cost me $100), and so, you owe me. Should we meet in Chicago I am gonna want you to try "Option OP" (we'll call it "OOPS");)

Thanks for listening, carry on.
Also, and interesting fact about 2 shot shoot out, and I'm not promoting that idea ''at all'' but what I did see during my days of that and not that often.... was this.

You rolled out, I came to the table and didn't like your shot, so I rolled out back at yah, now your the first one with a roll out and decide to take the table/shot that I gave you. If you took the shot and scratched, then I got BIH, if I took the shot made it, then got outta line, I'd hook yah and try and get you to dbl foul because your already on One Foul, if you fouled then I'd get BIH because that was 2 scratches in a row.

One of the great games of pool, 8 ball bar table (perfect congestion SVB's favorite game) to speed up play, they went to BIH on break scratches, boy did that speed it up, plus if you make ANY ball on the break you could choose either ball group, boy did that ALSO speed up the game. I still like BIH in the kitchen and make a stripe, shoot a stripe, make both ball groups on a break shoot either Ball, but times changed.

During those early years/team 8 ball.... with Stroud/Scott Smith/Myself/Brett Smith & Carl Nelson we used old school rules.

Strouds average over and entire season, was more than 90% wins. Back then CO had more 8 ball teams than Any state in the US and of course we went on to win the Nationals. Our 1982 team was called ''The Wizards''. Those old school rules Favored the better players for sure.
 

LSJohn

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I still like BIH in the kitchen and make a stripe, shoot a stripe, make both ball groups on a break shoot either Ball, but times changed.
I didn't know that was a change... I thought the old official rules of 8 ball let you take your choice whatever you made on the break
 

Bob Jewett

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I didn't know that was a change... I thought the old official rules of 8 ball let you take your choice whatever you made on the break
It's not that simple. The original rules of the game -- before it was called 8 ball -- said that you would take the group you made on the break or choose a group if you made some of each. That was the rule from the invention (about 1908) until the last printing of the "Royal Game" rulebook in about 1942.

In the 1945 rulebook, when Brunswick had given up some of its power over the game (and the game of eight ball was no longer called The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Company Pool Game), the rule was changed to choice of the breaker if he made a ball or the non-breaker if the breaker did not make a ball. That rule was in force through 1966.

In 1967, the "take what you make" rule came back. That persisted until 1974. (There were no new rulebooks in 1975 or 1976.)

In the 1977 rule book, choice was back, but in the 1978 rule book both versions were given with TWYM applying to bar tables while the Championship Rule was choice after break. The dual rule quickly disappeared. (I haven't checked every year, but I think TWYM never came back officially for any game after 1978.)

So from this, we can conclude that TWYM was in and out but finally lost any official status about 1980. And choice has been around as a rule since 1945, off and on. At least officially.

The other thing that changed is that now you choose by legally making a ball. You used to choose simply by declaring a group.
 

darmoose

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It's not that simple. The original rules of the game -- before it was called 8 ball -- said that you would take the group you made on the break or choose a group if you made some of each. That was the rule from the invention (about 1908) until the last printing of the "Royal Game" rulebook in about 1942.

In the 1945 rulebook, when Brunswick had given up some of its power over the game (and the game of eight ball was no longer called The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Company Pool Game), the rule was changed to choice of the breaker if he made a ball or the non-breaker if the breaker did not make a ball. That rule was in force through 1966.

In 1967, the "take what you make" rule came back. That persisted until 1974. (There were no new rulebooks in 1975 or 1976.)

In the 1977 rule book, choice was back, but in the 1978 rule book both versions were given with TWYM applying to bar tables while the Championship Rule was choice after break. The dual rule quickly disappeared. (I haven't checked every year, but I think TWYM never came back officially for any game after 1978.)

So from this, we can conclude that TWYM was in and out but finally lost any official status about 1980. And choice has been around as a rule since 1945, off and on. At least officially.

The other thing that changed is that now you choose by legally making a ball. You used to choose simply by declaring a group.
Bob,

Was there ever official rules for playing nine ball with the "push out" options and do you know the history of how all those changes came about?

In my area, Chicago, my recollections are we played you could push out, the opponent would either take the shot or give it back. If he gave it back and you fouled, maybe you got BIH in the kitchen (not sure). But, the opponent did not have the option of pushing out right after I did, he just took the shot or gave it back to me.

Thanks :unsure:
 

stevelomako

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It's not that simple. The original rules of the game -- before it was called 8 ball -- said that you would take the group you made on the break or choose a group if you made some of each. That was the rule from the invention (about 1908) until the last printing of the "Royal Game" rulebook in about 1942.

In the 1945 rulebook, when Brunswick had given up some of its power over the game (and the game of eight ball was no longer called The Brunswick-Balke-Collender Company Pool Game), the rule was changed to choice of the breaker if he made a ball or the non-breaker if the breaker did not make a ball. That rule was in force through 1966.

In 1967, the "take what you make" rule came back. That persisted until 1974. (There were no new rulebooks in 1975 or 1976.)

In the 1977 rule book, choice was back, but in the 1978 rule book both versions were given with TWYM applying to bar tables while the Championship Rule was choice after break. The dual rule quickly disappeared. (I haven't checked every year, but I think TWYM never came back officially for any game after 1978.)

So from this, we can conclude that TWYM was in and out but finally lost any official status about 1980. And choice has been around as a rule since 1945, off and on. At least officially.

The other thing that changed is that now you choose by legally making a ball. You used to choose simply by declaring a group.
Yah, but wasn’t that with 2” balls before they went with 2 3/4” then settling with 2 1/4”.

😂😂🤣🤣🤣
 

stevelomako

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Bob,

Was there ever official rules for playing nine ball with the "push out" options and do you know the history of how all those changes came about?

In my area, Chicago, my recollections are we played you could push out, the opponent would either take the shot or give it back. If he gave it back and you fouled, maybe you got BIH in the kitchen (not sure). But, the opponent did not have the option of pushing out right after I did, he just took the shot or gave it back to me.

Thanks :unsure:
Two different ways to play.

Two fouls in a row.

Two by the same player. This is how “Captain Hook” got his name. You’d push out, then he’d take a shot and hook/lock you up and get ball in hand.
 

Bob Jewett

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Yah, but wasn’t that with 2” balls before they went with 2 3/4” then settling with 2 1/4”.

😂😂🤣🤣🤣
That's not how it went. At the start you had large elephants with big tusks so naturally you had larger balls, some as large as 3". As the big ones were hunted out, you got smaller and smaller balls from the smaller tusks. When only pygmy elephants were left you had to play with 1 1/2" balls. At that time no elephant was taller than about four feet. Then John Wesley Hyatt came along and saved everything. A band of elephants in Tanzania actually make a kind of memorial for him. This brief history lesson was supported by viewers like you.🤞
On a less important subject.... I don't think the rules for pushout nine ball were ever written down or at least I haven't seen a copy of them. I do remember that usually the "any two fouls by either player" was played rather than "two by the same player", but I only saw the game played in SF and I did not play well enough to get into those games. I also saw some fairly large money matches with "best effort to hit".
 

LSJohn

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That's not how it went. At the start you had large elephants with big tusks so naturally you had larger balls, some as large as 3". As the big ones were hunted out, you got smaller and smaller balls from the smaller tusks. When only pygmy elephants were left you had to play with 1 1/2" balls. At that time no elephant was taller than about four feet. Then John Wesley Hyatt came along and saved everything. A band of elephants in Tanzania actually make a kind of memorial for him. This brief history lesson was supported by viewers like you.🤞
Ouch! I gave at the office because the girl collecting was a knockout, but I had no idea I was contributing to making elephants smaller.
I also saw some fairly large money matches with "best effort to hit".
"best effort to hit". I don't think I want any of that game with any of the politicians we see most in the news. 😨
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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One Pocket & Nine Ball were considered Hustler games and thus not recognized by BCA until '67.
The first section of the 9-ball rule is the standard way to play 9-ball, which has the game generally played as we know it with exceptions.
You must hit the lowest # ball first and then any ball pocketed stays down. When incoming player cannot hit the object ball directly he must go to a rail and attempt to strike the ball first. Penalties shall be loss of turn only.
----------------
This is the alternative rule to the above standard rule. This is the'67 writing.

Optional Shoot Out Rule: When agreed before starting play the following rule may be in effect. When incoming player cannot hit the lowest numbered ball on the table directly, he may roll the cue ball to a spot where the ball can be hit. His opponent then has the option of shooting or making the incoming player take the shot. If the incoming player takes the shot and fails to hit the lowest numbered ball then his opponent has the cue ball in hand, and can start from any position on the table to shoot at the lowest numbered object ball on the table. In all cases of consecutive games-loser of game becomes breaker in next game.
----------------
I played Shoot-out by all balls spotted, illegally pocketed ball was spotted, ball off the table was not a foul and immediately spotted, BIH was BTL and if the ob was also behind the line it spotted. Always the lowest numbered ball spotted up first, a one shot shoot-out/ no consecutive shoot outs, and by the 2 foul rule, and you decided prior to the game whether; it was 2 fouls by the same player, or any two consecutive fouls was ball in hand anywhere on the table.
Another way to play is 'two balls before the nine'. If I recall this properly, if a player scratched then any balls behind the line were thrown down, except for two balls before the nine.
All ring games was a single shoot-out rule. No ball in hand anywhere.
Whitey
 

darmoose

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One Pocket & Nine Ball were considered Hustler games and thus not recognized by BCA until '67.
The first section of the 9-ball rule is the standard way to play 9-ball, which has the game generally played as we know it with exceptions.
You must hit the lowest # ball first and then any ball pocketed stays down. When incoming player cannot hit the object ball directly he must go to a rail and attempt to strike the ball first. Penalties shall be loss of turn only.
----------------
This is the alternative rule to the above standard rule. This is the'67 writing.

Optional Shoot Out Rule: When agreed before starting play the following rule may be in effect. When incoming player cannot hit the lowest numbered ball on the table directly, he may roll the cue ball to a spot where the ball can be hit. His opponent then has the option of shooting or making the incoming player take the shot. If the incoming player takes the shot and fails to hit the lowest numbered ball then his opponent has the cue ball in hand, and can start from any position on the table to shoot at the lowest numbered object ball on the table. In all cases of consecutive games-loser of game becomes breaker in next game.
----------------
I played Shoot-out by all balls spotted, illegally pocketed ball was spotted, ball off the table was not a foul and immediately spotted, BIH was BTL and if the ob was also behind the line it spotted. Always the lowest numbered ball spotted up first, a one shot shoot-out/ no consecutive shoot outs, and by the 2 foul rule, and you decided prior to the game whether; it was 2 fouls by the same player, or any two consecutive fouls was ball in hand anywhere on the table.
Another way to play is 'two balls before the nine'. If I recall this properly, if a player scratched then any balls behind the line were thrown down, except for two balls before the nine.
All ring games was a single shoot-out rule. No ball in hand anywhere.
Whitey
Interesting that an "option to shoot or return the shot" has existed in pool for decades and the ONLY reason it was eliminated was for TV and to make the game faster for spectating.:rolleyes:

IMHO the writers of one pocket rules decades ago were somewhat shortsighted in that they did not forsee their rules creating the unintended consequences of the "tapping" game we have to live with today. We could have had a somewhat more exciting and interesting game all these years, and so many players (gamblers) would not have been cheated out of the original spot they had negotiated. :(
 

NH Steve

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Interesting that an "option to shoot or return the shot" has existed in pool for decades and the ONLY reason it was eliminated was for TV and to make the game faster for spectating.:rolleyes:

IMHO the writers of one pocket rules decades ago were somewhat shortsighted in that they did not forsee their rules creating the unintended consequences of the "tapping" game we have to live with today. We could have had a somewhat more exciting and interesting game all these years, and so many players (gamblers) would not have been cheated out of the original spot they had negotiated. :(
You'll like this darmoose, from when I interviewed "The Jockey" and he talked about Eugene "Clem" Metz:

“I had seen him playing Eddie Taylor in Johnston City, and they was playing One Pocket and Taylor put Clem in a trap. Of course, Clem took a scratch. So Eddie took one and now Clem took another scratch, and another one. Back then they didn’t play no three fouls. Eddie got so mad he knocked all the balls off the table and quit because he (Clem) just kept taking scratches.”
 

cincy_kid

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You'll like this darmoose, from when I interviewed "The Jockey" and he talked about Eugene "Clem" Metz:
I think I mentioned this in a thread somewhere or posted it in one of his HOF posts but that was the thing about Clem! Of course I never saw him play but from those I spoke to about him and his game who knew him well said it was so hard to beat Clem because he would literally never give his opponent a shot. Never....He would take many intentional fouls before letting his opponent have a chance at making a ball, lol....

I mean if you think about it, yea it makes sense, just dont let them shoot at their pocket and they can't win!

But for me if I was playing against him I probably wouldn't play too many because I like feeling like I have a chance to be in the game! I would be more like Eddie Taylor and just give up on that game!
 
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