Rules question!

#Cruncher

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Please help me settle a dispute, rules experts. If I’m shooting a ball, and in my haste knock a different ball with my hand, which happens to go into my opponent’s pocket, what is the result? None of the other balls on the table would have altered the path of the ball I knocked in.
 

cincy_kid

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I am not positive but I would assume your opponent has the option since it was your mistake. They can either put the ball back where they thought it was or leave it where it is (in his pocket). Either way it shouldn't be a foul and it would still be your shot. (my opinion only)
 

#Cruncher

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Cincykid, right, I know that would be the rule in 8/9/10 ball, just not as confident about One Pocket.
 

cincy_kid

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Cincykid, right, I know that would be the rule in 8/9/10 ball, just not as confident about One Pocket.
typically, when I play people we usually go over some basic ground rules before we start, base of ball or whole ball, rerack on making a ball on the break etc.

One of them is, if you move 2 or more balls its a foul when setting up on a shot. If you move one the opponent has the option of putting it back where they think it was or leaving it rest where it is now. I would say most people play that way...
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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The WPA does not specifically specify what happens when a ball is disturbed and pocketed, but in bcapl it is not a foul, and even in 8-ball if the 8 happens to go in this way, it is restored no foul, no loss of game
But in OP the ball counts for the opponent! A ball pocketed accidentally into an opponent's scoring pocket, counts!
 
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chicagomike

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A friend called me the other day to ask my opinion...here is what I gathered happened. Player A has a ball hanging in his pocket. Player B was shooting the CB and while shooting he fouled in such a way that he knocked in the hanging ball with his cue stick. In that situation I advised that I believed the ball should be replaced to hanging the pocket and that player B takes the foul and owes a ball to be spotted. Would you agree??
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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A friend called me the other day to ask my opinion...here is what I gathered happened. Player A has a ball hanging in his pocket. Player B was shooting the CB and while shooting he fouled in such a way that he knocked in the hanging ball with his cue stick. In that situation I advised that I believed the ball should be replaced to hanging the pocket and that player B takes the foul and owes a ball to be spotted. Would you agree??
I can not agree, for a ball intentionally or accidently pocketed into an opponent's pocket counts whether or not a foul occurs, unless it is a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumped off the table then the opponent's ball spots plus the shooter looses and spots a ball for the foul, unless owed.
 

NH Steve

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I can not agree, for a ball intentionally or accidently pocketed into an opponent's pocket counts whether or not a foul occurs, unless it is a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumped off the table then the opponent's ball spots plus the shooter looses and spots a ball for the foul, unless owed.
I agree — cue ball fouls only so no foul, but opponent has the option to leave it scored or restore it to where it was. No foul either way if only one ball was disturbed. That’s the way I would interpret the current rules.
 

chicagomike

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I can not agree, for a ball intentionally or accidently pocketed into an opponent's pocket counts whether or not a foul occurs, unless it is a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumped off the table then the opponent's ball spots plus the shooter looses and spots a ball for the foul, unless owed.
For clarification there was a separate foul that occurred prior to knocking in the ball that was hanging.So he fouled first and then after the foul occrred his stroke continued and his cue stick knocked in the opponent's hanging ball.
 

BOX

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Chicago Mike and Whitey a scenario similar to the one you are discussing happen at the LA open early 90s I was there many great players were their of today young Shannon Dalton Hawaiian Bryan Texas Blood Dennis Hatch just to name a few also the match I'm going to refer to was the match between Mark Tadd and Cecil Tugwell one pocket this match can be seen on youtube I believe it was posted by John Adams but it was cut because of the out bust of Tugwell I do have a copy of the complete match not my material but I do have it. Here's what happen, after Tugwell ending his object ball stopped in the jaws of his pocket he accidentally hit the ball and knocked it into the pocket he hit the ball with his hand Cecil put the ball back Mark question putting it back all hell broke lose Mark wanted to spot the ball on the spot Tugwell went ballistic the match was halted the ruling was put the ball back nearest original location Mark argued the ball should go to the spot, now it's Mark shot, and while he was Survey the table from the head string the ball fell back into Tugwells pocket laughter broke out in the audience Mark had to smile and said to Cecil put it back, Dr.Bill was playing Ronnie Allen at the time. Anyway if a ball is pocketed with a hand and not a cue stick during a foul or not it should came to the original location,or the spot it is not a legally pocketed ball because it was pocketed with a hand not a cue. As always thanks in Advance.
 

cincy_kid

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For clarification there was a separate foul that occurred prior to knocking in the ball that was hanging.So he fouled first and then after the foul occrred his stroke continued and his cue stick knocked in the opponent's hanging ball.
ah in this case, yea Mike I think you made the right call! Otherwise I agree with Steve and Whitey!
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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These are OP.org rules!
3. Continuing play

3.1 A player’s inning continues only as long they pocket a ball or balls in their own pocket on a legal stroke. While it is perfectly legal to pocket a ball in a neutral pocket or in the opponent’s pocket, doing so does not entitle the shooter to continue their inning, unless on the same stroke they legally pocket a ball into their own pocket. Any balls pocketed either accidentally or intentionally into the opponent’s pocket are counted for the opponent, unless on the same stroke, either the cue ball pocket scratches or jumps off the table.

6. Fouls

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.

6.2 Any scratch or foul results in the end of the shooter’s inning, as well as a standard one ball penalty. All balls pocketed in the shooter’s pocket as a result of a stroke that includes a foul do not count for the shooting player and are to be immediately spotted, along with the standard one ball penalty. Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted. However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact), any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent.

This is the WPA General Rule.
21. Cue ball fouls only

If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

Now you can decide the proper ruling! Thanks Box, for the great story! Thanks for the thread, Whitey
 
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LSJohn

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I agree — cue ball fouls only so no foul, but opponent has the option to leave it scored or restore it to where it was. No foul either way if only one ball was disturbed. That’s the way I would interpret the current rules.
I think this is consistent with the rules, but not the spirit of the game. I think an exception should be carved out for accidentally pocketing a ball in opponent's pocket with one's hand, clothing, bridge or cue stick. In all other "touch-only-one" situations, the guideline seems to be "no harm, no foul." Letting opponent keep this ball is inconsistent with that, and punishment for the offender is extreme.
 
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LSJohn

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The "ball stays down" rule for scratches other than pocket scratch or CB off table is to avoid the possibility that a person could intentionally make his opponent's ball, run the CB to a difficult position for opponent, then intentionally touch a ball with his hand so the opponent's ball would come up. Inadvertently pocketing a ball for opponent with your body or equipment is a different case, IMO.
 

Tennessee Joe6

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Not to upset anyone...but this is getting to be more confusing than bar room 8 ball... We need standardized rules.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I just added 6.1 to my previous post for it also pertains.
But, food for thought; if I accidentally or accidentally on purpose pocketed a cliff hanger ball in the opponent's pocket say on the back stroke, therefore alleviating the ball in front of his hole, which otherwise he had me dead to rights!

How then should the rule be written? For, the opponent would absolutely want that ball back in front of his pocket!

Also, in regards to Box's comment if I am reading it right;
the non-shooting player himself accidently knock the object ball into his own scoring pocket. This is far different than 'cue ball foul only', which absolutely would not cover this scenario.
For,
This is covered as outside interference of the balls by the opponent, which would be an unsportsmanlike conduct, or at least a foul. An opponent can not disturb any ball on the table.
Exception; The outgoing player always should spot balls for the incoming player, right! Therefore, if he was pulling a ball from his pocket to spot it and then accidently disturbed the jawed ball then it is not a foul and the ball would be restored. Otherwise it is a foul, and that ball would spot as Tad stated, but beings it is a foul then the offending player should also spot another ball, unless owed!

That is the way I would of ruled it, if the rules of those days would be in align with my thinking! Thanks again for the thread, it is getting very interesting! Whitey
 
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chicagomike

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I just added 6.1 to my previous post for it also pertains.
But, food for thought; if I accidentally or accidentally on purpose pocketed a cliff hanger ball in the opponent's pocket say on the back stroke, therefore alleviating the ball in front of his hole, which otherwise he had me dead to rights!

How then should the rule be written? Whitey
Seems it's explained clearly in the rule 6.1as to the remedy for the fallen ball
 

BOX

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I just added 6.1 to my previous post for it also pertains.
But, food for thought; if I accidentally or accidentally on purpose pocketed a cliff hanger ball in the opponent's pocket say on the back stroke, therefore alleviating the ball in front of his hole, which otherwise he had me dead to rights!

How then should the rule be written? For, the opponent would absolutely want that ball back in front of his pocket!

Also, in regards to Box's comment if I am reading it right;
the non-shooting player himself accidently knock the object ball into his own scoring pocket. This is far different than 'cue ball foul only', which absolutely would not cover this scenario.
For,
This is covered as outside interference of the balls by the opponent, which would be an unsportsmanlike conduct, or at least a foul. An opponent can not disturb any ball on the table.
Exception; The outgoing player always should spot balls for the incoming player, right! Therefore, if he was pulling a ball from his pocket to spot it and then accidently disturbed the jawed ball then it is not a foul and the ball would be restored. Otherwise it is a foul, and that ball would spot as Tad stated, but beings it is a foul then the offending player should also spot another ball, unless owed!

That is the way I would of ruled it, if the rules of those days would be in align with my thinking! Thanks again for the thread, it is getting very interesting! Whitey
I just added 6.1 to my previous post for it also pertains.
But, food for thought; if I accidentally or accidentally on purpose pocketed a cliff hanger ball in the opponent's pocket say on the back stroke, therefore alleviating the ball in front of his hole, which otherwise he had me dead to rights!

How then should the rule be written? For, the opponent would absolutely want that ball back in front of his pocket!

Also, in regards to Box's comment if I am reading it right;
the non-shooting player himself accidently knock the object ball into his own scoring pocket. This is far different than 'cue ball foul only', which absolutely would not cover this scenario.
For,
This is covered as outside interference of the balls by the opponent, which would be an unsportsmanlike conduct, or at least a foul. An opponent can not disturb any ball on the table.
Exception; The outgoing player always should spot balls for the incoming player, right! Therefore, if he was pulling a ball from his pocket to spot it and then accidently disturbed the jawed ball then it is not a foul and the ball would be restored. Otherwise it is a foul, and that ball would spot as Tad stated, but beings it is a foul then the offending player should also spot another ball, unless owed!

That is the way I would of ruled it, if the rules of those days would be in align with my thinking! Thanks again for the thread, it is getting very interesting! Whitey
I was Commenting on the conversation it had me reflect back to the game that I reflecting on but in the same breath I don't understand how a ball pocketed with the individuals hand commutes to a legally pocketed ball foul or not, which I thought was the case my bad thanks anyway
 

NH Steve

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I would venture that often the opponent would rather have the ball restored rather than count, even though it would count for him.

I heard a story sorry I don't remember exactly where or who told it, but I believe it involved Weenie Beenie and a ball was accidentally knocked into Beenie's pocket by his opponent and when informed of the ruling, it being game ball for Beenie, he said something to the effect of, "In that case I will let it stay where it is." So sometimes that is better :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
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