Rule Question

8andout

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Last night, my opponent was shooting over some balls up table and he moves a ball with his hand (not the object ball). The cueball goes around the table and passes through where the moved ball would have been, changing the final resting place of the cueball. We did not know if it was a foul. Also we didn't know if we should move the balls back because we don't know where the cueball would have ended up. So we just left them alone, and i think they favored him. Whats the right thing to do?
 

WhatWouldWojoDo

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I've always heard that with 'cue ball foul only'

Causing movement of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. It is not a foul to accidentally move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless, while shooting, a player moves a ball and in turn strikes the cue ball. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball is a foul. Any balls moved accidentally during a shot will be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all the balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it will be replaced before the shot is taken

So as long as the cue ball was not hit during the shot by the ball that was moved, it is not a foul and the balls are placed back as close to their original position. I know it seems it should be a foul because it changed the outcome, but according to the rules its not.
 

keoneyo

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Its a foul because it interfered in the path of the cue ball.
If a cue ball was going into the drink and you pushed a ball in its path to prevent that you would call that a foul, wouldnt you?

You cant mess with whitey.
 

jtompilot

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Its a foul because it interfered in the path of the cue ball.
If a cue ball was going into the drink and you pushed a ball in its path to prevent that you would call that a foul, wouldnt you?

You cant mess with whitey.
That's a great move. Maybe I'll try that move if I'm playing whatwouldwojodo:)
 

Billy Jackets

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That's a great move. Maybe I'll try that move if I'm playing whatwouldwojodo:)
I used to play a guy that rearranged the "furniture" on a regular basis. It was always a lot better for him when he was done.
People watching would always ask later why I didn't say something to him.
He won one session in about 40.
:heh
 

wincardona

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That has always been a foul..as far as I can go back. When I was playing in tournaments in the 60's it was a foul and still is. However, playing foul on cue ball only..opens up a lot of doors to argue because of the "discretion"needed to call shots a foul. In your situation there is a certain amount of area that should be acceptable when the cue ball passes over the area of the moved ball for it to be recognized as a foul. :D But how much area is that?:confused: Well so am I. However, it just doesn't happen often enough..I guess...to lobby for a change. We've been living comfortably with it for years, why change it now.

Bill Incardona
 

lll

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this is from the bca rules of pocket billiards
in short
its a foul
......
1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball)
with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a
referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between
the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should
allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not
allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored
ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul.[B] In short, if the
accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul
[/B]. In any case, the Tournament Director must
be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot.
It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls.
At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the
balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any
contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a
shot.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Last night, my opponent was shooting over some balls up table and he moves a ball with his hand (not the object ball). The cueball goes around the table and passes through where the moved ball would have been, changing the final resting place of the cueball. We did not know if it was a foul. Also we didn't know if we should move the balls back because we don't know where the cueball would have ended up. So we just left them alone, and i think they favored him. Whats the right thing to do?
How do you propose to verify this? Anyone who tells you this is an automatic foul is an idiot. Do you have video replay? Can you show where the balls were?

It's not a foul unless you are in a strange room or playing an idiot.

Dennis
 

NH Steve

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Rule Question

How do you propose to verify this? Anyone who tells you this is an automatic foul is an idiot. Do you have video replay? Can you show where the balls were?



It's not a foul unless you are in a strange room or playing an idiot.



Dennis

There are some "close call" sorts of fouls (like near split hits) that i believe should go to the shooter, but this is one that should tend toward the opponent IMO, because after all, they are acknowledging they moved an object ball. It's ok for the opponent to call a foul if it "might" have affected the shot. That should be enough for most players.

The CSI rules (which are very thorough and well thought out) actually specify 7" as the sphere of potential effect.
 

NH Steve

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Rule Question

I'm still leaning toward the idea of "One touch warning rule" for One Pocket -- where you are actually playing all ball fouls except you get one warning if you touch any object balls prior to executing your shot as long as you can stop and give your opponent the choice of restoring or leaving before you retry your shot. A second touch, or any touch once you have released your shot, would always be a foul.

I think this rule option could reduce arguments but take a step toward cleaning up the game. Of course if there is a referee you can always play all ball fouls. I definitely don't like all ball fouls without a ref because it is too easy for the opponent to call a phony foul
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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How do you propose to verify this? Anyone who tells you this is an automatic foul is an idiot. Do you have video replay? Can you show where the balls were?

It's not a foul unless you are in a strange room or playing an idiot.

Dennis
There are some "close call" sorts of fouls (like near split hits) that i believe should go to the shooter, but this is one that should tend toward the opponent IMO, because after all, they are acknowledging they moved an object ball. It's ok for the opponent to call a foul if it "might" have affected the shot. That should be enough for most players.

The CSI rules (which are very thorough and well thought out) actually specify 7" as the sphere of potential effect.
Steve,

There isn't a poolplayer anywhere who's going to let an opponent call a foul on this type thing for anything serious. Everybody here knows or should know that.

Those who have said it's a foul would be the first one's to cry if you called a foul on them for this.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I'm still leaning toward the idea of "One touch warning rule" for One Pocket -- where you are actually playing all ball fouls except you get one warning if you touch any object balls prior to executing your shot as long as you can stop and give your opponent the choice of restoring or leaving before you retry your shot. A second touch, or any touch once you have released your shot, would always be a foul.

I think this rule option could reduce arguments but take a step toward cleaning up the game. Of course if there is a referee you can always play all ball fouls. I definitely don't like all ball fouls without a ref because it is too easy for the opponent to call a phony foul
Phony fouls can be called and argued by both players, don't forget this. Just because you are honest and only call what you see doesn't mean everybody sees it the same way.

Many times the guy who has hit a ball with his shirt sleeve or belly or whatever doesn't even know that he moved an object ball. Then you look like the jerk for calling it. The shoe can be placed on the other foot very quickly here.

The bottom line is not to gamble with clumsy people.

Dennis
 

NH Steve

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Phony fouls can be called and argued by both players, don't forget this. Just because you are honest and only call what you see doesn't mean everybody sees it the same way.

Many times the guy who has hit a ball with his shirt sleeve or belly or whatever doesn't even know that he moved an object ball. Then you look like the jerk for calling it. The shoe can be placed on the other foot very quickly here.

The bottom line is not to gamble with clumsy people.

Dennis
Recently I have had two different players "assume" that since we were playing for 20 or 50 bucks a game then we were playing all ball fouls. Neither one brought it up until I touched an object ball bridging. I told them they had to say that prior to if they wanted to play that way, because everything around here is cue ball fouls only except for some tournaments. I said we could play that way from then on. Guess who fouled next both times -- yes, they did, and amazingly, they both had the balls to bitch!

One question did come up that I was not totally sure of since I am more used to cue ball fouls only -- if you move an object ball playing all ball fouls, does it stay put or move back always, or opponent's choice (like it is with cue ball fouls only)?
 

keoneyo

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Recently I have had two different players "assume" that since we were playing for 20 or 50 bucks a game then we were playing all ball fouls. Neither one brought it up until I touched an object ball bridging. I told them they had to say that prior to if they wanted to play that way, because everything around here is cue ball fouls only except for some tournaments. I said we could play that way from then on. Guess who fouled next both times -- yes, they did, and amazingly, they both had the balls to bitch!

One question did come up that I was not totally sure of since I am more used to cue ball fouls only -- if you move an object ball playing all ball fouls, does it stay put or move back always, or opponent's choice (like it is with cue ball fouls only)?
Opponent has the choice of leaving it or putting it back. Otherwise we would be pushing balls in front of our hole when profitable.
 

keoneyo

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How do you propose to verify this? Anyone who tells you this is an automatic foul is an idiot. Do you have video replay? Can you show where the balls were?

It's not a foul unless you are in a strange room or playing an idiot.

Dennis
I guess Im an Idiot. Because if you move a ball where the cue ball would have impacted it, its a called FOUL. Of course you can always quit if you dont like that ruling playing me. But youd have a good excuse. Who would want to play with an idiot.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Recently I have had two different players "assume" that since we were playing for 20 or 50 bucks a game then we were playing all ball fouls. Neither one brought it up until I touched an object ball bridging. I told them they had to say that prior to if they wanted to play that way, because everything around here is cue ball fouls only except for some tournaments. I said we could play that way from then on. Guess who fouled next both times -- yes, they did, and amazingly, they both had the balls to bitch!

One question did come up that I was not totally sure of since I am more used to cue ball fouls only -- if you move an object ball playing all ball fouls, does it stay put or move back always, or opponent's choice (like it is with cue ball fouls only)?
You were correct.

I only played "all ball fouls" one time and I don't remember what we did when an object ball was moved. I would think to restore the integrity of the game the ball(s) should be moved back to where they were with no choice being given to the opponent. He is already paying a ball for the foul and should suffer no further advantage or disadvantage because of the foul.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I guess Im an Idiot. Because if you move a ball where the cue ball would have impacted it, its a called FOUL. Of course you can always quit if you dont like that ruling playing me. But youd have a good excuse. Who would want to play with an idiot.
Who anointed you the "maker of rulings"? You do not decide unilaterally what is or is not a foul.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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I guess Im an Idiot. Because if you move a ball where the cue ball would have impacted it, its a called FOUL. Of course you can always quit if you dont like that ruling playing me. But youd have a good excuse. Who would want to play with an idiot.
I wouldn't mind playing with an idiot..just kidding. Of course it would be a foul if it happened the way you described it. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be a foul..aren't you "illegally" affecting the out come of a game? Yes. :frus

Bill Incardona
 
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