Rule question...

tylerdurden

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I owe 1ball...I have a ball hanging in my pocket, my opponent shoots a ball into his hole and attempts to draw the cue ball into my hanging ball, while committing the stroke he inadvertently hits the hanging ball with his cue stick pocketing my ball....the cue scratches in my hole...

My contention is it is a foul he's spots 2 balls and my ball is replaced where it lay, my shot ball in hand in the kitchen.

He says all 3 balls spot...his scratch penalty, the ball he made, and my ball because I owe one...(along with some minor crumbling about not scratching had he not hit my ball with his stick :)
In these rules discussion, the first thing I always say is forget the actual rules, because they aren't very good many times.

If you can just knock in a hanger with your cue and it spots, can't we just knock in hangers accidentally all the time. The rules have to punish.

If I was TD, I'd probably rule ball in hand in the kitchen, hanger is put back up. If somebody questioned me, i'd tell him he were lucky he didn't lose the game by doing what he did - but he has to be "punished" though. The other thing is though, the cb would have knocked the hanger in anyway. And I really would not care if I am technically "wrong", because this is what I think is the right decision.
 

androd

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What are you going to do with it?
Well, I'm old but if he knocked the ball in my pocket with his cue, it would be mine. After it's mine, if I owe one I'd spot it up
Rod.
 

wincardona

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New subject...Let's just say the cue ball had not fallen but styed up and occupied the spot the object ball had occupied before your opponent knocked it in with his stick. Then what?
I also believe that the object ball should be placed back into the pocket with ball in hand in the kitchen. But, your question of what would happen if the cue ball stopped in the pocket, occupying the area where the object ball was,
is a good one.:confused: I really feel that the ball should be placed back into the pocket and the cue ball moved in front of the pocket. For some reason that seems fair to me, in spite of attacking the integrity of the game.

Dr. Bill
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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Petie was saying, what would happen if the q ball didn't fall in but stopped where the knocked in ball was. It would still be a foul because the knocked in ball would have interfered with the q ball. But now there isn't an open spot to replace the pocketed ball because the q ball is there.
What happens if you're playing me is this: I will move the cueball out of the way and put the object ball back in my pocket jaw. Then put the cueball next to the ball. Is that so hard for anyone to comprehend? You cannot get credit for a ball that was pocketed with a hand or butt of cue. It comes up.

I'm not giving up a shot at the ball (and possible position) because some idiot knocked it in my pocket accidently.

Dennis
 

Tom Wirth

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This situation reminds of a match between Weenie Beenie and Larry Nuedecker which occured many years ago. I posted about that match a few weeks ago. In that match Beenie scrapped in Larry's game ball while attempting a shot at his own pocket. Beenie wanted the fouled ball to be replaced but Larry argued that he had his choice to replace the ball or leave it where it ended up. Beenie agreed he had that option so Larry obviously chose the later. Game over.

This situation is the same with a slight twist. The shooter here shot and while pocketing a ball he scrached. IMO it doesn't mater which hole the cue ball fell into, he scratched and owes a ball plus the ball which was pocketed during the scratch. It is a side issue that he also fouled an object ball with his cue. The incoming player has the right to replace the ball or leave it be.

Tom
 

tylerdurden

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I also believe that the object ball should be placed back into the pocket with ball in hand in the kitchen. But, your question of what would happen if the cue ball stopped in the pocket, occupying the area where the object ball was,
is a good one.:confused: I really feel that the ball should be placed back into the pocket and the cue ball moved in front of the pocket. For some reason that seems fair to me, in spite of attacking the integrity of the game.

Dr. Bill
Yes. Any other way to handle that just seems ludicrous.

I must admit, I haven't put a LOT of thought into this or anything, but my intuition tells me if fouls like this aren't a loss of game, it would be better to have some sort of option for the incoming shooter. In this case something like ball in hand behind the headstring, with ball replaced in pocket as close as possible, or ball remains in his hole as a scored ball, and maybe even a third option that it spots (not sure if that option would ever be used). If you are going to attack the integrity of the game, go all the way :)
 

gulfportdoc

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Doc, just curious.
Why would you wait to spot the ball ? it was made last inning and not slept.
Don't understand most new rules.
Rod.
P.S. Guy owes one, you make it for him it gets spotted after you finish your inning. Yes/No Maybe.
Hey Rod! I've been outta town for a few days. I was over in Houston, but I never have time to look you up! One of these days I'll allow some extra time so that we can get together and shoot the bull, and maybe play some pocket apiece.

IMO the ball that the non-shooter owes would spot up after his next turn as in rules 9.2 and 9.4. I think an argument could be made for either way. When a player owes a ball it's generally spotted after his turn, not before his turn, as you know. It's a very unusual situation in this case.

Cheers~ Doc
 

bstroud

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petie View Post
New subject...Let's just say the cue ball had not fallen but styed up and occupied the spot the object ball had occupied before your opponent knocked it in with his stick. Then what?

We might want to look at the 14-1 rules about the cue ball in the rack?

Bill S.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petie View Post
New subject...Let's just say the cue ball had not fallen but styed up and occupied the spot the object ball had occupied before your opponent knocked it in with his stick. Then what?

We might want to look at the 14-1 rules about the cue ball in the rack?

Bill S.
Here you go Bill:
WPBA said:
4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.
No help, as they say at the table.

Dennis
 

frmn

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I believe that Mr. Wirth has come up with the correct decision. When a player unintentionally moves a ball in an unrefereed match his punishment is that sometimes he may get the worst of it in the replacement. Ball in the kitchen and spot three if the non-fouler wants to repay his owed ball or ball in the kitchen and spot 2 and replace the hanger. The non fouler would then owe two. He is allowed this option due to the foulers carelessness. Good call Tom.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I believe that Mr. Wirth has come up with the correct decision. When a player unintentionally moves a ball in an unrefereed match his punishment is that sometimes he may get the worst of it in the replacement. Ball in the kitchen and spot three if the non-fouler wants to repay his owed ball or ball in the kitchen and spot 2 and replace the hanger. The non fouler would then owe two. He is allowed this option due to the foulers carelessness. Good call Tom.
Why would the non-fouler(who has not shot yet) owe two balls now if he only owed one at the start of this fiasco?
 

bstroud

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Here you go Bill:


No help, as they say at the table.

Dennis
The 14-1 rules seem to imply if the cue ball is occupying the space where the re-spotted object ball should be, it is ball in hand behind the head string? Not just placed as close to it as possible?

While we are on the rules subject, I was playing where I need 12 balls to win.
One object ball was hanging in the opposite corner pocket so I made it as I pocketed a ball in my pocket, played position on another ball and ran all the balls on the table.

On the last ball I made I played position on the spot. I claimed it was still my inning and the last ball should spot.

What's the rule on this? It was still my inning and I couldn't be left with nothing to shoot at.

Bill S.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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The 14-1 rules seem to imply if the cue ball is occupying the space where the re-spotted object ball should be, it is ball in hand behind the head string? Not just placed as close to it as possible?

While we are on the rules subject, I was playing where I need 12 balls to win.
One object ball was hanging in the opposite corner pocket so I made it as I pocketed a ball in my pocket, played position on another ball and ran all the balls on the table.

On the last ball I made I played position on the spot. I claimed it was still my inning and the last ball should spot.

What's the rule on this? It was still my inning and I couldn't be left with nothing to shoot at. You lose the game, you have to pay off. Try to be more careful in the future Bill.

Bill S.
How you can read this:

WPBA said:
4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.
...and come up with this:

bstroud said:
The 14-1 rules seem to imply if the cue ball is occupying the space where the re-spotted object ball should be, it is ball in hand behind the head string? Not just placed as close to it as possible?
...is completely beyond my limited comprehension.

P.S. The 14.1 rules don't imply anything, they state precisely what is to happen in every situation regarding cueball and/or 15th object ball or both, interference with the rack.

Dennis
 

bstroud

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(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In straight pool at least this seems to be a possibility of what to do when the cue ball interferes with the object ball being repositioned?

Where is a reference to placing it as close as possible?

Bill S.
 

frmn

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the fouler would spot the ball he made and one for fouling. If the non fouler decided to replace his ball to the edgee of the pocket only 2 balls would be spotted and he would have ball in habnd in the kitchen. If if the non fouler wanted to leave his ball where it wound up after the foul (in the pocket) he would have to spot the ball as a reult of owing for a previous foul. Therefore 3 balls would be spotted and bih in the kitchen.
 

petie

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the fouler would spot the ball he made and one for fouling. If the non fouler decided to replace his ball to the edgee of the pocket only 2 balls would be spotted and he would have ball in habnd in the kitchen. If if the non fouler wanted to leave his ball where it wound up after the foul (in the pocket) he would have to spot the ball as a reult of owing for a previous foul. Therefore 3 balls would be spotted and bih in the kitchen.
It just keeps getting fouler and fouler to paraphraze Keith's line in The Color of Money.
 

THood

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At JB's in MPLS, we played that if a ball was made during the inning in a non-scoring pocket and the last ball on the table was made before the game was over, it was the same as if the shooting player owed a ball and ran out of object balls, they spot until the inning is over.

Not sure if that was kosher but that's what we did.

What I never experienced was owing more than one and running out. Do all the balls I owed come up at once or one at a time?

Tom


The 14-1 rules seem to imply if the cue ball is occupying the space where the re-spotted object ball should be, it is ball in hand behind the head string? Not just placed as close to it as possible?

While we are on the rules subject, I was playing where I need 12 balls to win.
One object ball was hanging in the opposite corner pocket so I made it as I pocketed a ball in my pocket, played position on another ball and ran all the balls on the table.

On the last ball I made I played position on the spot. I claimed it was still my inning and the last ball should spot.

What's the rule on this? It was still my inning and I couldn't be left with nothing to shoot at.

Bill S.
 

onepocket

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At JB's in MPLS, we played that if a ball was made during the inning in a non-scoring pocket and the last ball on the table was made before the game was over, it was the same as if the shooting player owed a ball and ran out of object balls, they spot until the inning is over.

Not sure if that was kosher but that's what we did.

What I never experienced was owing more than one and running out. Do all the balls I owed come up at once or one at a time?

Tom
All at once. This is covered in our rules:
http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm

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