Rule of thumb for one rail cross banks

Troy

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May 24, 2004
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89
Without seeing just how you shoot it, I'd guess either a thinner hit on the OB or more outside english (in this instance, right), maybe a combination of both.

Troy
Pelican said:
I have a collision at the intersection of the green and yellow lines about 90% of the time. What do i need to do?
 

hemicudas

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Going for the cross bank,,,,,,,,,,,NOT!!!!!

Going for the cross bank,,,,,,,,,,,NOT!!!!!

Troy said:
Without seeing just how you shoot it, I'd guess either a thinner hit on the OB or more outside english (in this instance, right), maybe a combination of both.

Troy
Just for the record Troy, Going for the cross corner in that spot is NOT the right shot. From the way it is set up you have to kick the ball out and over to your side of the table, I think. All I'm saying is it can be made and how to shoot it. Grady might be the favorite to make the cross corner but I don't think so. In fact, I don't think he would shoot it either, from that angle.

From this angle, I would go for it. Drawing your cb with low outside english, going in front of the 1 ball. The outside english on the cb puts inside on the 1 ball, holding it. If I am in stroke, I am the favorite to make the ball. This shot, Grady is ALLWAYS the favorite to make it. I think all it comes down to is whether you can beat the kiss or not.

START(
%AF2Y5%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%PV2R3%US5D3%VC2T4%WC8U6%XE7X5
%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E7Z6%\E8Z2%]G4X4%^U6R5%eC5b6%_r8U5%`g3N6%aT2C4
)END
 
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Troy

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
89
Maybe so Hemi. I'd have to see it on the table to be sure. I was looking at CC's "picture" and now yours and I just might go for it either way. There are slight differences to the two leaves according to the WEI pic. The thin/thick hit on the OB and the amount of outside (right) juice depends on just where the OB and the CB are located.

Troy...~~~ Isn't that good at the WEI table (or the real table for that matter...) :)
hemicudas said:
Just for the record Troy, Going for the cross corner in that spot is NOT the right shot. From the way it is set up you have to kick the ball out and over to your side of the table, I think. All I'm saying is it can be made and how to shoot it. Grady might be the favorite to make the cross corner but I don't think so. In fact, I don't think he would shoot it either, from that angle.

From this angle, I would go for it. Drawing your cb with low outside english, going in front of the 1 ball. The outside english on the cb puts inside on the 1 ball, holding it. If I am in stroke, I am the favorite to make the ball. This shot, Grady is ALLWAYS the favorite to make it. I think all it comes down to is whether you can beat the kiss or not.

START(
%AF2Y5%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%PV2R3%US5D3%VC2T4%WC8U6%XE7X5
%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E7Z6%\E8Z2%]G4X4%^U6R5%eC5b6%_r8U5%`g3N6%aT2C4
)END
 

NH Steve

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Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,994
From where you have the balls, Hemi, if I can, I try to avoid the scratch in the side 'A', and in the corner 'B' using tons of low right english, like this:

START(
%AF2Y5%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%PV2R3%QZ5A6%Rs2Z9%UQ2D3%VC2T4
%WC8U6%XE7X5%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E7Z6%\E8Z2%]G4X4%^U6R5%eC5b6%_r8U5
%`h6Z1%aR4C8
)END

If the cue ball is farther over so it is a thinner cut and I can't be assured of ending up on the safe side of the far corner pocket, then that side and the corner become huge with low outside english. If I play the shot from there, I use high right instead, and plan to fall beyond the side pocket. High right seems to work just as well at throwing the ball towards your hole as low right, without as much chance for scratching:

START(
%AF4Y9%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%Pe0P7%QZ5A6%Rs2Z9%Uc2D1%VC8W5
%WD4X5%XE8Y0%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E5Z7%\E5Z5%]G5Y2%^c6Q1%eC6`7%_j7Q8
%`r7J8%ad6D0
)END
 

hemicudas

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May 24, 2004
Messages
702
NH Steve said:
From where you have the balls, Hemi, if I can, I try to avoid the scratch in the side 'A', and in the corner 'B' using tons of low right english, like this:

START(
%AF2Y5%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%PV2R3%QZ5A6%Rs2Z9%UQ2D3%VC2T4
%WC8U6%XE7X5%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E7Z6%\E8Z2%]G4X4%^U6R5%eC5b6%_r8U5
%`h6Z1%aR4C8
)END

If the cue ball is farther over so it is a thinner cut and I can't be assured of ending up on the safe side of the far corner pocket, then that side and the corner become huge with low outside english. If I play the shot from there, I use high right instead, and plan to fall beyond the side pocket. High right seems to work just as well at throwing the ball towards your hole as low right, without as much chance for scratching:

START(
%AF4Y9%B[9]1%C[5]1%D[6\6%E[2\5%F[7\8%G[8\8%H[6]1%I[4]1%J[6\3
%K[4]0%L[3\8%M[4]4%N[4\9%O[8]5%Pe0P7%QZ5A6%Rs2Z9%Uc2D1%VC8W5
%WD4X5%XE8Y0%YC7D1%ZE2[2%[E5Z7%\E5Z5%]G5Y2%^c6Q1%eC6`7%_j7Q8
%`r7J8%ad6D0
)END
Sorry Steve but I can't go for that shot either. I have to kick it out and onto my side of the table, side pocket or above.
 

Chris Cass

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May 24, 2004
Messages
48
jack said:
First, I have to say i'm glad people are here, and so quickly too...a big hello those I recognize from azbilliards...

So, onto my question:

Several good players I know have told me this--if I have an object ball on the oppoents side of the table, and my cue ball can't go straight into his pocket, I can't bank it into mine.....check out the layout to see what I mean...

START(
%Am8H4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ4R1%OJ5M0%Ph9L7%Qp2G1%Us1Z0%Vo4C6%Wm0I7
%Xh8L8%Yn8D6%Zn1G2%[p9H3%\r8H4%]r3H8%^n1I2%eB3a5
)END

Now, I've hit shots that this rule would say aren't possible.....usually with heavy inside english and a softer hit.

Is this rule well known or something they've just noticed? Are there any rules like this that help in situations? If you have a chance at a shot like this, how would you hit it?

Thanks!
Hi Jack,

I fancy Cuda' reply as a way of doing it. Also, eight and out has another popular way of making the ball or getting it to your hole anyway. The rule of thumb I got from Grady. However, the rule of thumb is not a neg way of thinking of it. Turn that around and you can count on the double kiss to get you out of trouble too.

I use the double kiss with consistancy. It's the nuts in many situations just to wait for a better shot without the possible sell-out. There's one more rule of thumb noone has mentioned here. That is, "There's no worse feeling a One Pocket player can have, than selling out." Even losing isn't that bad. LOL

Here's another that Grady mentions in one of his tapes. If the ob is near or frozen to the rail after the first diamond and you kick at it. It's a sell-out a majority of the time. I notice this to be true. Anything less than the diamond is ok but be aware, you have to still hit it good. It looks like this.

START(
%AD0V2%BJ0U5%CI7O2%DL7N1%EL2U5%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JL0M0
%KL2V8%LJ7L7%MO5W8%ON6L7%PH8L2%QA9B0%UF1Z4%VH4M0%YD2X2%ZE3[2
%eB8a0
)END

This is the max limit and your pocket is "A". I'm still a little wet behind the ears where One Pocket is concerned. I only played it for a yr.

Regards,

C.C.
 

jack

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May 24, 2004
Messages
38
Chris Cass said:
Hi Jack,

I fancy Cuda' reply as a way of doing it. Also, eight and out has another popular way of making the ball or getting it to your hole anyway. The rule of thumb I got from Grady. However, the rule of thumb is not a neg way of thinking of it. Turn that around and you can count on the double kiss to get you out of trouble too.

I use the double kiss with consistancy. It's the nuts in many situations just to wait for a better shot without the possible sell-out. There's one more rule of thumb noone has mentioned here. That is, "There's no worse feeling a One Pocket player can have, than selling out." Even losing isn't that bad. LOL

Here's another that Grady mentions in one of his tapes. If the ob is near or frozen to the rail after the first diamond and you kick at it. It's a sell-out a majority of the time. I notice this to be true. Anything less than the diamond is ok but be aware, you have to still hit it good. It looks like this.

START(
%AD0V2%BJ0U5%CI7O2%DL7N1%EL2U5%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JL0M0
%KL2V8%LJ7L7%MO5W8%ON6L7%PH8L2%QA9B0%UF1Z4%VH4M0%YD2X2%ZE3[2
%eB8a0
)END

This is the max limit and your pocket is "A". I'm still a little wet behind the ears where One Pocket is concerned. I only played it for a yr.

Regards,

C.C.
thanks chris, i'll have give some of these a try tonight...i still can't seem to get the feel for cuda's...seems like even with a lot of low and left the the cue will drift right over in the path of the object ball...
 

hemicudas

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May 24, 2004
Messages
702
jack said:
thanks chris, i'll have give some of these a try tonight...i still can't seem to get the feel for cuda's...seems like even with a lot of low and left the the cue will drift right over in the path of the object ball...
Jack, the shot takes outside slide draw english. Outside, in this case, is Right english, not Left. The CB is going to end up in the middle of the table rather than going farther up to the top corner, as I drew it.
 

Chris Cass

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
48
Hi ya Cuda,

Seems Jack doesn't really know the first rule of thumb yet. :D In time it'll all come clear.

Regards,

C.C.~~hope you got the card I sent? I swear I mailed it.
 

jack

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Messages
38
Chris Cass said:
Hi ya Cuda,

Seems Jack doesn't really know the first rule of thumb yet. :D In time it'll all come clear.

Regards,

C.C.~~hope you got the card I sent? I swear I mailed it.

Hahaha...whoops, I forgot the shot was lined up top right corner...ok, bottom right makes more sense...will give it a go tonight...

btw, something ronnie said in his interview...about trying to move balls, not a ball, hitting into the stack, etc...i've been trying to do that more recently, and seeing it his interview really reminded me...well, last night was a perfect example...and there're few shots that feel as good as a kick into a rack, breaking it up, and pocketing a ball that your opponent never even saw...

/wish i was playing right now........*sigh*
 

hemicudas

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
jack said:
Hahaha...whoops, I forgot the shot was lined up top right corner...ok, bottom right makes more sense...will give it a go tonight...

btw, something ronnie said in his interview...about trying to move balls, not a ball, hitting into the stack, etc...i've been trying to do that more recently, and seeing it his interview really reminded me...well, last night was a perfect example...and there're few shots that feel as good as a kick into a rack, breaking it up, and pocketing a ball that your opponent never even saw...

/wish i was playing right now........*sigh*
Ain't it Da Truth.
 

Chris Cass

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May 24, 2004
Messages
48
jack said:
thanks chris, i'll have give some of these a try tonight...i still can't seem to get the feel for cuda's...seems like even with a lot of low and left the the cue will drift right over in the path of the object ball...
Hi Jack,

Let me walk you through the first rule of thumb as Grady talks about in his videos. The first rule of thumb is, if the cb doesn't "Pass" the ob "Clear" to the corner pocket, they'll be a double kiss. This is undisputable. Looks like this,

START(
%AG2F3%DL4^2%IK9_1%PJ8K1%YD3D5%ZJ7J9%eC3a4

)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Note: the english normally used.

Now, in order to make the cb pass without the double kiss. We have to change something. What Cuda is telling you is that it's possible to "drag" the cb across the ob and create a stall in the speed of the cb. This is done by using outside english. In this case outside is Left english. Looks like this,

START(
%AG2F3%DL4^2%IK9_1%PK3L2%WH4H9%XC2F6%YD2F7%ZF9G0%]C6[0%^F3C5
%eA6a6
)END

Hope this helps. BTW, don't feel like this is over your head. It's just a learning process we all have to go through. Try getting a hold of some of Grady' tapes. Maybe Jack Koehler' book on One Pocket. It's worth the investment in yourself. BTW, the first rule of thumb is a bit advanced imho. The first rule of thumb is really knowing what to look for in the rack. That is the beginning after all. LOL

Take care rookie, :p

C.C.~~I have one yr in and I'm still a rookie too. :D
 

jack

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Messages
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Chris Cass said:
Hi Jack,
...
Now, in order to make the cb pass without the double kiss. We have to change something. What Cuda is telling you is that it's possible to "drag" the cb across the ob and create a stall in the speed of the cb. This is done by using outside english. In this case outside is Left english....
I can see how that'd work...i would think it'd be important to get enough left on it to get the cue ball out of the way and not too much draw...will have to spend some time developing a feel for it...

from what i've heard, it seems that it'd be a waste getting jack koehlers book...for now i'll study Shots, Moves, and Strategies until i can afford a copy of Winning One Pocket...

thx,
jack
 

Chris Cass

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
48
jack said:
I can see how that'd work...i would think it'd be important to get enough left on it to get the cue ball out of the way and not too much draw...will have to spend some time developing a feel for it...

from what i've heard, it seems that it'd be a waste getting jack koehlers book...for now i'll study Shots, Moves, and Strategies until i can afford a copy of Winning One Pocket...

thx,
jack
Hi Jack,

I don't think any material on the game is a waist of your time. I think whatever books you choose is well worth your time. Nothing can replace experience but this material is from experience and helps the learning curve. I haven't read Jack K.' book but can tell you he knows his stuff. This double kiss rule is merely the cross side;/ cross over bank in reality. This I've learned from experience myself.

So many one pocket shots, banks, 9 ball and other games al inner-twine with eachother. When I came up it was 14.1 and one has to just use our imagination to see and understand how these shots are able to be done. That's the enjoyment I get from all the games. I'll put myself in a particular game mode to solve many problems during the game. When playing straight pool I'll think of the safety as if I'm playing one pocket. It's much easier to play it that way. Same with 9 ball.

Take care Jack and no matter what the read is, it's always going to bennifit you. You can always help out a friend too. When your done, you could always send them the gift of knowledge.

Regards,

C.C. ~~was sent Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets. Great for 9, 10, straight and 8 ball but I don't agree with his One Pocket break. still, a welcome gift even if it's for a little while. I got it down and that's all I need. :)
 

jack

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May 24, 2004
Messages
38
Chris Cass said:
Hi Jack,

I don't think any material on the game is a waist of your time. I think whatever books you choose is well worth your time. Nothing can replace experience but this material is from experience and helps the learning curve. I haven't read Jack K.' book but can tell you he knows his stuff. This double kiss rule is merely the cross side;/ cross over bank in reality. This I've learned from experience myself.

So many one pocket shots, banks, 9 ball and other games al inner-twine with eachother. When I came up it was 14.1 and one has to just use our imagination to see and understand how these shots are able to be done. That's the enjoyment I get from all the games. I'll put myself in a particular game mode to solve many problems during the game. When playing straight pool I'll think of the safety as if I'm playing one pocket. It's much easier to play it that way. Same with 9 ball.

Take care Jack and no matter what the read is, it's always going to bennifit you. You can always help out a friend too. When your done, you could always send them the gift of knowledge.

Regards,

C.C. ~~was sent Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets. Great for 9, 10, straight and 8 ball but I don't agree with his One Pocket break. still, a welcome gift even if it's for a little while. I got it down and that's all I need. :)

So I finally tried it..first couple times I hit it badly...but, once i realized that you almost want to cut it straight to the rail, i started nailing them...amazing how physics works, isn't it? :)

Btw, i looked around for Racking Secrets and couldn't find any...is it another one of those out of print books that're classics but hard to find? (like Eddie Robin's books)....
 

Woody_968

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Jun 24, 2004
Messages
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Chris Cass said:
I don't think any material on the game is a waist of your time.
Well put CC. I can say I have read many books that were so overlaping of other material that I only got one knew idea or concept from the whole book. But many times that one knew nugget of knowledge is well worth any money or time invested.
 

longhair

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Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Messages
3
another way to beat the kiss

another way to beat the kiss

Hey, everybody!

When I saw Jack's diagram, I thought of Hemicuda's way out, draw outside spin. I don't think the inside and soft path will beat the kiss as the bank is drawn. There are some banks where neither will work, and this might be one. However, you can stretch the low right version a lot by elevating to shoot it. This takes speed off of the object ball and gives the cueball more time, as well as lengthening the angle the cueball will take coming off of the rail.

Does anyone know a "rule of thumb" to describe which kisses can be avoided with inside, which with outside, and which ones can't be beat? I do this by feel, and while that is effective for me, it's not very helpful to anyone else.

This forum is great! What an amazing learning opportunity. Many thanks to all those involved.
________
Extreme q essential oils
 
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