Pinning cueball to the rail with your tip

ChrisBanks

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
149
I was in a game today and left my opponent in the jaws of his own pocket.

He pushed the cueball and pinned the cueball to the rail, I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. But he did not use a stroke, he intentionally pinned the ball to the rail.

I said it should be ball in hand. Someone else in the room said that is a legal shot. But I think maybe he didn't understand what happened correctly. He didn't actually see the shot take place.

Is this ball in hand?

I know this was discussed before but I couldn't find the page.
 

Jimmy B

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
5,121
I was in a game today and left my opponent in the jaws of his own pocket.

He pushed the cueball and pinned the cueball to the rail, I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. But he did not use a stroke, he intentionally pinned the ball to the rail.

I said it should be ball in hand. Someone else in the room said that is a legal shot. But I think maybe he didn't understand what happened correctly. He didn't actually see the shot take place.

Is this ball in hand?

I know this was discussed before but I couldn't find the page.


I mentioned Piggy doing that to Earl in the Banks but nobdy was interested in commenting of course. Did he corner hook you by keeping the tip in contact with cue ball or hitting it more than once?? It's wrong and they went over that at the meeting but its also touchy because they can admit it was a foul but claim it was NOT intentional. I know that Piggy did it intentionally and would have called loss of game. You were playing one pocket so there is no ball in hand. Its either a regular foul and he spots one , your shot, or its an unsportsmanlike shot and loss of game, or don't fool with the guy any more, unless he is a regular. I had hundreds of fouls that I never called on regulars. Many times I would turn my head away real quick and pretend I didn't see it so as not to embarrass them and then we jsut moved on with the proceedings. See what a truely nice guy I am? I am not harsh on folks like some judgemental people in here. You know why?? Because we are going to be judged like we judge other people. I DO NOT want righteous judgment on me. I want MERCY and FORGIVENESS. All I can get. All you can eat baby
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,163
I was in a game today and left my opponent in the jaws of his own pocket.

He pushed the cueball and pinned the cueball to the rail, I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. But he did not use a stroke, he intentionally pinned the ball to the rail.

I said it should be ball in hand. Someone else in the room said that is a legal shot. But I think maybe he didn't understand what happened correctly. He didn't actually see the shot take place.

Is this ball in hand?

I know this was discussed before but I couldn't find the page.
Yeah, your right this has been discussed before. I fall into the camp that he owes at least two. I think Steve said he owes one and you have CB in hand behind the line. It's a deliberate foul and should be more severely punished. It's ridiculous. Stroud and others said it's always been done . I say it's time for a change.
Rod.
 

sappo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,110
Im under the impression that its a foul, he must spot a ball or he owes a ball and he must then replay the shot legally . He must put the cue ball back at its original location and play again. If he does it again loss of game. Keith
 

senor

Verified Member
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
976
Yeah, your right this has been discussed before. I fall into the camp that he owes at least two. I think Steve said he owes one and you have CB in hand behind the line. It's a deliberate foul and should be more severely punished. It's ridiculous. Stroud and others said it's always been done . I say it's time for a change.
Rod.
Back before I knew any better I remember trying that shot against you:sorry...You asked me "How many fouls was that?:frus" I just didn't understand at the time.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I was in a game today and left my opponent in the jaws of his own pocket.

He pushed the cueball and pinned the cueball to the rail, I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. But he did not use a stroke, he intentionally pinned the ball to the rail.

I said it should be ball in hand. Someone else in the room said that is a legal shot. But I think maybe he didn't understand what happened correctly. He didn't actually see the shot take place.

Is this ball in hand?

I know this was discussed before but I couldn't find the page.
This was a valid shot and/or thing to do in that spot here in Detroit for many years. I don't know how they play it now but it was standard, particularly on a 5x10 snooker table when a guy put a ball by his pocket and almost scratched uptable but corner-hooked you.

I've seen it done and done it in many big money games.

It's your choice how you want to play it but there is no set rule when gambling.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I mentioned Piggy doing that to Earl in the Banks but nobdy was interested in commenting of course. Did he corner hook you by keeping the tip in contact with cue ball or hitting it more than once??
JB,

I had not yet seen Piggy's foul when you posted that comment, I have seen it now, several times in fact on quite a few replays.

Piggy didn't place the tip of his cue against the cueball and press it to the jaws. He shot the cueball into the jaws and it rebounded into his still-in-place cuetip. He probably did it intentionally but he hit it twice, he did not push&hold it to the rail. I don't know if it makes a difference but they let him get away with it much to Earl's chagrin.

Dennis
 

ChrisBanks

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
149
My argument was that if he is allowed to push the cueball and hold it to the rail, then I am free to push the cueball around anywhere I want, and then hold it to the rail, on any shot. It will just be a foul.

If the cueball was in the middle of the table, I could just push it to a pocket and press against the rail and he would be corner hooked, no ball in hand.....
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
My argument was that if he is allowed to push the cueball and hold it to the rail, then I am free to push the cueball around anywhere I want, and then hold it to the rail, on any shot. It will just be a foul.

If the cueball was in the middle of the table, I could just push it to a pocket and press against the rail and he would be corner hooked, no ball in hand.....
Reductio Ad Absurdum; where the validity of an idea is tested by taking it's premises to their logical extreme.

Chris, this is correct on your part but it only comes up when corner-hooked and don't forget one thing: it can also help you when you are in that spot:). Put yourself in this spot: You are betting $200 a game on a 5x10 snooker table and there is one ball on the table. The guy banks it straight-back very near his pocket and almost scratches uptable but guess what, yep, he corner-hooks you instead. If you push-out or try to kick at the ball near his pocket you will lose. Instead you have the option of freezing the cueball to the corner pocket jaw. You take the foul, spot one up and it's his shot at nothing.

Personally, I like to be free to do it for my money but it comes up so infrequently that I would probably agree not to play that way if my opponent insisted.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
If I was referring a 10k game of one hole, and this came up.... and the guy obviously pinned it on purpose, i'd tell the offending player to put it back and shoot it again, and if I see you doing something like this again it is loss of game. This is all assuming I had 100% authority over the game.

If the other guy put up a huge stink about him being able to shoot again, Id fend him off as best I could, but he'd have a great point.

As imperfect as it may be, that is what i'd do.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
If I was referring a 10k game of one hole, and this came up.... and the guy obviously pinned it on purpose, i'd tell the offending player to put it back and shoot it again, and if I see you doing something like this again it is loss of game. This is all assuming I had 100% authority over the game.

If the other guy put up a huge stink about him being able to shoot again, Id fend him off as best I could, but he'd have a great point.

As imperfect as it may be, that is what i'd do.
TD,

If you were refereeing a $10000 game you would know the rules that both players had agreed to before the game started. You would not make any decisions contrary to what they had agreed to.

That aside, what would you do from here if it was your shot and the 3 was near your opponents hole and you both needed one ball? He banked it straight-back and almost scratched but caught a break and left you crap. What would you do for a few hundred a game? If you've never been in that spot then you don't know how it feels to have to pay for his "almost" mistake.

Corner-Hooked.jpg
 
Last edited:

tylerdurden

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,959
TD,

If you were refereeing a $10000 game you would know the rules that both players had agreed to before the game started. You would not make any decisions contrary to what they had agreed to.

That aside, what would you do from here if it was your shot and the 3 was near your opponents hole and you both needed one ball? He banked it straight-back and almost scratched but caught a break and left you crap. What would you do for a few hundred a game? If you've never been in that spot then you don't know how it feels to have to pay for his "almost" mistake.

View attachment 5230
Well, aside from what i'd do from there (which I dont think matters as far as this discussion goes), that is a good point about the agreed upon before rules. My post was assuming (without mentioning that fact) that nothing was said about a situation like this before the match started.... which may be a bad assumption... but i bet a lot of big games go off without talking about this particular shot.

Anyway, I still would do that, which is maybe why nobody is asking me to referee big matches :lol

I would like to post my reasoning: that pin shot isn't within the spirit of the way the game of one pocket should be played in my estimation. However, I can see many situations where a player could come from a certain room, or area, and they all shoot it that way without even thinking about it. That is why i'd cut slack to anybody, but would not tolerate it after that. That is just my reasoning, however flawed :)

To reverse your question on you, what if a guy purposefully laid down that shot on you in your diagram above (ie he played a corner hook and hit it well). Would that make a difference? Shouldn't.
 
Last edited:

Cary

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
866
TD,

If you were refereeing a $10000 game you would know the rules that both players had agreed to before the game started. You would not make any decisions contrary to what they had agreed to.

That aside, what would you do from here if it was your shot and the 3 was near your opponents hole and you both needed one ball? He banked it straight-back and almost scratched but caught a break and left you crap. What would you do for a few hundred a game? If you've never been in that spot then you don't know how it feels to have to pay for his "almost" mistake.

View attachment 5230
Simple. Just do this.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63itJ9RCnks[/ame]
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Well, aside from what i'd do from there (which I dont think matters as far as this discussion goes)

To reverse your question on you, what if a guy purposefully laid down that shot on you in your diagram above (ie he played a corner hook and hit it well). Would that make a difference? Shouldn't.
TD,

It wouldn't make a difference how it got there, it's the same layout either way. I was just showing that it most often comes up when a guy almost scratches that's all.

If a guy played me there purposefully then he would have pocketed a ball too and it would be on the spot now, that couldn't happen with only one ball on the table.

I just don't feel I should lose the game from there that's all. I've only done it twice in my life that I recall but I've seen it done more than that. It was a standard shot here. When you're betting your money you like to play by rules that allow you to protect it. It's the same for both players so it's no big deal anyway, and it is something to discuss beforehand as you can see. Different players and different areas of the country play it different.

Dennis
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,163
TD,
it is something to discuss beforehand as you can see. Different players and different areas of the country play it different.

Dennis
We always played the same way. Some years ago I realized how wrong it is, and started to qualify if I was playing a stranger. A year or so ago I was playing in San Antonio and my opponent corner hooked me. I softly bumped the CB across to the other bevel and it rolled back where it was. My opponent looked at me and grinned and said that's the greatest shot I've seen lately, and tried the same thing. The sweaters asked why not push it against the rail. I said it could've been a double foul or loss of game I didn't know how they played it. Everyone said the just pinned it to the rail and owed one,
Rod.
 

Cary

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
866
We always played the same way. Some years ago I realized how wrong it is, and started to qualify if I was playing a stranger. A year or so ago I was playing in San Antonio and my opponent corner hooked me. I softly bumped the CB across to the other bevel and it rolled back where it was. My opponent looked at me and grinned and said that's the greatest shot I've seen lately, and tried the same thing. The sweaters asked why not push it against the rail. I said it could've been a double foul or loss of game I didn't know how they played it. Everyone said the just pinned it to the rail and owed one,
Rod.
Was that at Banana's?
 
Top