Phantom hanger. This actually happened and I am seeking opinions on how it should be resolved in the future

onepocketman

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Joined
Feb 16, 2019
Messages
6
Hanger.jpg

Started with a standard scenario. Score is 7 to 7. I shoot for the win but it hangs up deep in my pocket. I wait a few seconds in case it decides to fall. It stays put. I relinquish the table. My opponent bends, aims, and shoots to pocket my ball and follow it in with the cueball. No big deal. The CB was mid-table, not that that matters here.

So after he strikes the CB, my hanging ball falls into the pocket before the CB contacts it. No ball to ball contact was made. CB is pocketed as expected after my ball falls. Technically he did not pocket my ball. I've never seen this timing play out in a game but anything can happen. One for the books. It makes a split-second seem like a long time. This was more like 200 ms, but clear to see.

He thought we should spot mine and one of his as one would normally do for the intended shot. I wondered out loud whether it had to be replaced in the jaws and he just spots his ball for the foul (almost guaranteeing I get the win), but as there was no gambling involved I agreed with his call. I didn't protest or call the house-man. Just a friendly game.

Normally a delayed hanger dropping in happens before the incoming player shoots or when they shoot at some other ball. Table vibrations. Sometimes it may fall while the incoming player is only viewing the table, or sizing up a shot but has not taken up any stance or shot profile yet. If the outgoing player has left the table for the incoming player I know the object ball gets replaced in the jaws as close as possible to the spot it was in, once the outgoing shooter relinquished the table (or after so many seconds if the outgoing player wants to wait it out). So for all deep hangers now I go look how deep they are to decide if I want to wait a moment before leaving the table.

1) Does anyone know the correct call? I have received varying opinions since then.
2) How long is the outgoing shooter allowed to wait out a hanger to see if it falls?
3) If the outgoing player starts to leave the table but the incoming player has not stepped up (say only a very few seconds have elapsed since the shot stopped) is there an automatic continuation of the outgoing player's turn? The gray area so to speak.

Thanks for your input and any reference links you know of.
 

Tom Wirth

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Jul 5, 2004
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2,600
In the general rules of pocket billiards the object ball and cue ball are replace as they were before the shot was taken and the shot can then be played again without penalty.

I am paraphrasing from BCA The Official Rules and Records Book General Rules section (23 Balls moving Spontaneously)
I have an old copy but I am confident this is not a rule which would have been altered through to the present.

Tom
 

vapros

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May 24, 2004
Messages
3,376
Several years ago a similar situation was presented here - maybe with actual video, I'm not sure - except that the shooter was trying only to pocket the hanger, not to scratch. The scratch happened because the hanger fell before he got there. It was discussed, but nothing was decided. Dilemma -
 

ChicagoFats

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Feb 1, 2017
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728
Anyone who doesn't either replace the balls and shoot again or spot two balls and give incoming player BIH behind head string would never get a penny of my action ever again. This is not debatable and nothing to think about. It is a simple anomaly and easy to fix. Only way I would see anything like this being handled any other way is if someone tried to push the table or whatever for an angle shot.
 

Bob Jewett

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Jan 26, 2005
Messages
106
The rule is well known. It is written down. It is good to read the rules of the game you are playing if you want to play it right. For those who don't have the resources to actually look at the rule online, here it is:

1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.
(emphasis added)
 

beatle

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Jun 21, 2009
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2,176
when gambling, i like but dont care what the rules are as long as i know what they are. is once you take control of the table then all that happens is on you.

too many different scenarios come up. suppose the ball is hanging and i miscue and the ball falls in. then i get to do my shot over? what if my shooting leaning on the table and miscue moved the cloth enough for the ball to drop. so i get a reprieve?

or he shoots at it and barely misses it and it drops then you spot it? but maybe the air passing by dropped it, or maybe he really did slightly touch it.

or suppose it isnt game ball and he shoots at it and misses it completly and it falls in do you spot it. and what if you now break open all the other balls do you redo the game?
 

Bob Jewett

Verified Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
106
when gambling, i like but dont care what the rules are as long as i know what they are. is once you take control of the table then all that happens is on you.

too many different scenarios come up. suppose the ball is hanging and i miscue and the ball falls in. then i get to do my shot over? what if my shooting leaning on the table and miscue moved the cloth enough for the ball to drop. so i get a reprieve?

or he shoots at it and barely misses it and it drops then you spot it? but maybe the air passing by dropped it, or maybe he really did slightly touch it.

or suppose it isnt game ball and he shoots at it and misses it completly and it falls in do you spot it. and what if you now break open all the other balls do you redo the game?
Which of those scenarios is not covered by the present rule?
 
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