Owen vs. Chohan 2007 U.S. Open final

gulfportdoc

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Here's the situation: Gabe has come back to win the first set (has to win two sets in true dbl elim) in the finals match. This is the second game of the second set, races to 4. Gabe has won the first game. Now in the second game Gabe needs one; Tony needs all three. This is a tricky situation. What would you do; and what do you think Gabe did? ~Doc

Chohan-Owen 1.jpg
 

jrhendy

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Here's the situation: Gabe has come back to win the first set (has to win two sets in true dbl elim) in the finals match. This is the second game of the second set, races to 4. Gabe has won the first game. Now in the second game Gabe needs one; Tony needs all three. This is a tricky situation. What would you do; and what do you think Gabe did? ~Doc

View attachment 7256
Kick at the 14. If you hit it short and hit the 5, no problem.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Doc...Can't tell any of this for sure (the actual angles) without being at the table...that said...

I could shoot to cut the stripe in - don't love it...

Bank the stripe towards my pocket - don't love it...

Kick at the 5, long rail first - don't love it...

Instead, there's a good, smart safety here - simple to execute, with nothing that can go wrong (as long as there's not a natural scratch in the side angle - which it doesn't look like there is)....I'm going to softly hit that top striped ball, just hard enough to reach the head rail, slightly to the left (my viewing of left) of center table...and have the cueball end up on Tony's long rail, about 1 diamond above the side pocket/or wherever the natural carom angle takes it to on that long rail....Tony will not have much to shoot at from this leave, and he will be leaving me a much better shot for my next inning.

PS, And I'll want the striped ball to bounce about an inch up after hitting the head rail, so as not to leave it in a good position relative to the rail, for Tony to kick at it.
- Ghost
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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Kick at the 14. If you hit it short and hit the 5, no problem.
I don't like the kick because...if you kick too long you scratch and owe a ball..if you kick too short, you sell out..and even if you hit it good you leave a bank on that up-table striped ball - which includes the 3-rail around the table cueball option to win the game with.
 

Fast Lenny

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Doc...Can't tell any of this for sure (the actual angles) without being at the table...that said...

I could shoot to cut the stripe in - don't love it...

Bank the stripe towards my pocket - don't love it...

Kick at the 14 and/or 5, long rail first - don't love it...

Instead, there's a good, smart safety here - simple to execute, with nothing that can go wrong (as long as there's not a natural scratch in the side angle - which it doesn't look like there is)....I'm going to softly hit that top striped ball, just hard enough to reach the head rail, slightly to the left (my viewing of left) of center table...and have the cueball end up on Tony's long rail, about 1 diamond above the side pocket/or wherever the natural carom angle takes it to on that long rail....Tony will not have much to shoot at from this leave, and he will be leaving me a much better shot for my next inning.

PS, And I'll want the striped ball to bounce about an inch up after hitting the head rail, so as not to leave it in a good position relative to the rail, for Tony to kick at it.
- Ghost
You are going to do this on a Diamond table? I think the ball might bounce up leaving a little something, also the cue ball looks like a natural scratch off the stripe meaning you will have to put something on the ball to avoid it making your shot tougher to keep that object ball on the rail. I like John's shot, rolling towards the 2 balls.
 

Frank Almanza

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If I can't bank that stripe toward my hole and take the cue ball up table withe some left English then I like John's kick shot and take my chances on him banking the ball that's up table. If no rail then the worse is I'll need another ball.

The Ghost's shot looks difficult because it looks like it has to be hit too thin to avoid the scratch.
 

wincardona

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I agree with Lenny when he rebutted the Ghost's shot by saying the scratch in the side looms to big to try his shot. Sorry Ghost, but there's no simple solution to this predicament.:sorry However, I agree with the Ghost when he rebutted John's shot on kicking ..one cushion softly into the 5ball. as a high risk shot, in terms of selling out a winning bank for Chohan, sending the cue ball three rails for position.

I see two shots that I would consider from this position. First you must understand that the shooter is at a disadvantage from this position to get the first ball, or possibly lose the game. With this understanding taking an intentional scratch is not out of the question, especially if you can put your opponent in trouble by taking it. But the question is...where do you take the intentional from this position to reverse the advantage back to Gabe? The intentional I would choose would be to position the cue ball ...up table near the top right corner...on the rail, short of the pocket. From this position Chohan will have problems answering Gabe's move.

If Gabe wants to gamble a little here and doesn't want to take the intentional he can ..two rail kick under the 5ball and send the cue ball back up table on Chohan's side of the table, and the 5ball should end up near Gabes side rail with the 15ball as possibly a blocker on the 5ball. WHEW. A little risky, but certainly a shot that is worth considering, especially if you're adept at the kicking game.

Dr. Bill
 
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vapros

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I like John's shot, but I would plan to two-rail it and move the 5 ball also. If I decide to take an intentional scratch I will kick to the short rail near Tony's pocket.
 

SJDinPHX

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I think, if I were anywhere near comfortable with the table, I would kick, two rails, at the 3/5? ball, to hit it thin, sending it over to my side, and send the cue ball up table... Almost no way to hit it bad...If Gabe hits it anywhere near decent, (a lot of margin for error)..Tony will not like his next shot..The worst that could happen, is for Gabe to scratch in the upper corner..after making a good kick...Just assuming you make a decent kick...don't shoot hard enough to do that..Anyway, thats my shot for all the marbles the..:cool: (PS..I LOVE to kick !)

Edit;..Just noticed that was one of Dr. Bill's options...Two great minds, etc..;)..For sure there are other options, but I just don't see any other shot, as strong as that one, for all my cash !..
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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Dear Lenny, Frank and Billy...I already said in my first post...

Doc...Can't tell for sure (the actual angles) without being at the table...

Instead, there's a good, smart safety here - simple to execute, with nothing that can go wrong (as long as it's not a natural scratch in the side angle - which it doesn't look like there is)

So re. what I previously posted...I'm not shooting it if the angle is not natural for the correct deflection angle and speed...but if the natural angle is there for my safety, then imeo it's hands down the best choice here..:cool:

Sorry Billy...but if my shot's natural angle is there, my shot can give your two shots about 10-7...:heh

- Ghost
 
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Miller

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when you ladies pull your tampons out.....backcut the 15 pocket speed with LOTS of high
:)
 

NH Steve

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I like soft kicking at the 14 ball or the Ghost's soft roll of the 15-ball to the bottom rail. The soft roll on the 15 would depend on the scratch angle, like he said -- not shooting it if it looks like a scratch angle. Personally, I would not cut the 15 to make it -- it looks like too tough a shot for me to want to bet the game, although the camera does foreshorten the table quite a bit.

No way would I kick hard enough to skim off the 5-ball and go back up table, although I like that shot in other situations. The way I see that kick -- advocates are talking about hitting it basically like you are trying to make the ball, right? -- it's lying a little far out from the corner, and off the rail to assure a good hit consistently, and bad things can happen if you don't get a good light nick on that 5, i.e., you get under it too much or God forbid you miss it completely and sell out either the 15 or the ball you have to spot because you missed your kick. Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.
 

SJDinPHX

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I like soft kicking at the 14 ball or the Ghost's soft roll of the 15-ball to the bottom rail. The soft roll on the 15 would depend on the scratch angle, like he said -- not shooting it if it looks like a scratch angle. Personally, I would not cut the 15 to make it -- it looks like too tough a shot for me to want to bet the game, although the camera does foreshorten the table quite a bit.

No way would I kick hard enough to skim off the 5-ball and go back up table, although I like that shot in other situations. The way I see that kick -- advocates are talking about hitting it basically like you are trying to make the ball, right? -- it's lying a little far out from the corner, and off the rail to assure a good hit consistently, and bad things can happen if you don't get a good light nick on that 5, i.e., you get under it too much or God forbid you miss it completely and sell out either the 15 or the ball you have to spot because you missed your kick. Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.
Steve, No way I'm trying to hit the 5 that thin..I envision it winding up somewhere around the first or second diamond on my side of the table..If I hit it good, the 5 will come out far enough not to leave a return bank. It is not an easy shot, but I am comfortable with it.
 

lll

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If I can't bank that stripe toward my hole and take the cue ball up table withe some left English then I like John's kick shot and take my chances on him banking the ball that's up table. If no rail then the worse is I'll need another ball.
.
my first thought was johns shot
my second was banking the stripe towards my pocket and bringing the cueball back up table
would want the stripe to end on the short rail so tony couldnt bank it into the 2 balls near his pocket
the 2 rail kick on the 5 i wouldnt consider for my skill set
the 5 is too far off the rail and the distance of the q ball
when the object ball is close to the opponent pocket and long rail and the q ball is behind the stack for example moving the ball towards my pocket with that type of kick i would consider without hesitation
 

wincardona

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Dear Lenny, Frank and Billy...I already said in my first post...

Doc...Can't tell for sure (the actual angles) without being at the table...

Instead, there's a good, smart safety here - simple to execute, with nothing that can go wrong (as long as it's not a natural scratch in the side angle - which it doesn't look like there is)

So re. what I previously posted...I'm not shooting it if the angle is not natural for the correct deflection angle and speed...but if the natural angle is there for my safety, then imeo it's hands down the best choice here..:cool:

Sorry Billy...but if my shot's natural angle is there, my shot can give your two shots about 10-7...:heh

- Ghost
:sorry:sorry I went to the table to set up the balls the way they are positioned in the diagram. The scratch in the side is dead on which eliminates that option. Even if the scratch wasn't on that shot is a weak shot considering the score and the position of the remaining balls. My reason for this is the difficulty with the hit, in terms of direction and speed. Not to leave a good return shot is just about impossible. You will either leave a return shot on the 15ball cross corner, or a thin cut with the 5ball to either lose the game with or put yourself in deep trouble.Ghost, I do understand when you say that you will not shoot the shot unless it's laying natural for the correct angle and speed. However, shooting off the rail from the distance referenced may be natural...or some what natural for the correct deflection..angle...and speed, but the real problem is executing the shot from the position it lays.:eek:

Taking an intentional in this situation should not be undervalued. To me it's certainly a good trade off. However, the intentional should be taken where I suggested to take it. Upper right side of the table. From this position Chohan will be playing Gabe 3 to 2 with a difficult shot decision to make. Taking the intentional shooting toward the 14 and 5balls is only good if you get ..under the 5ball, snookering Chohan from the 15ball.

I do understand that it's a very difficult thing to ask of yourself to take yourself off the hill, once you've arrived there. However there are times when we have to make sacrifices in order to survive, or to stop the bleeding...if you will.

Another thing must be considered when debating this point. The better the players are, the more the intentional is the correct option.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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If I can't bank that stripe toward my hole and take the cue ball up table withe some left English then I like John's kick shot and take my chances on him banking the ball that's up table. If no rail then the worse is I'll need another ball.

The Ghost's shot looks difficult because it looks like it has to be hit too thin to avoid the scratch.
Frank, if you're going to take an intentional, why take it where you leave your opponent the ability to either win the game, or improve his position? The intentional should be taken to the upper right side of the table. From that position Chohan cannot win or improve his position.

Dr. Bill
 

jtompilot

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Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.
 

Dudley

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If I had eaten my wheaties that day and was feeling really sporty. I would go for this. (maybe not)

It's hard to read the angle from the view and depending on how close the rock is to the rail it might not even be close to shootable. But.. I would take a look. :)

Dud

Chohan-Owen 1.jpg
 
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