Orcullo vs Ronnie Allen

Island Drive

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You can't compare Orcullo to Efren that's for sure. One trait that RA had was his fundamentals. Ronnie RARELY Missed a ball in his prime. He was remarkably consistent on Every shot. He had a style and game....I always thought he was pools' Jack Nicklaus. He also performed extremely well when the bet was High, and had that ability to get you to play/bet, when ya thought you weren't going to :frus....
 

Cowboy Dennis

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You can't compare Orcullo to Efren that's for sure. One trait that RA had was his fundamentals. Ronnie RARELY Missed a ball in his prime. He was remarkably consistent on Every shot. He had a style and game....I always thought he was pools' Jack Nicklaus. He also performed extremely well when the bet was High, and had that ability to get you to play/bet, when ya thought you weren't going to :frus....
There are many criteria put forth by people to describe the "best" at something. Just for illumination concerning golfers, Nicklaus had 19 2nd place finishes in Majors and the man long thought to possibly be his better, Tiger Woods, has never come from behind, on a Sunday, in a Major, to win.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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If the truth was known Eddie Taylor was probably the best one pocket player back in the day, at least that's what people like "Corn Bread Red" and Danny Diliberto have to say. Plus there were many other top players that are in agreement with placing Taylor above Ronnie and all the other greats back then. I'm sure Rodney has heard the same, plus he himself could possibly have an opinion on who was the best, after all he seen both play probably many times and may have played them both as well.

I myself never played Taylor, nor have seen him play. However, I have played Ronnie a bunch of times getting 10 to 8 and it was close. I also played Reyes a bunch of times, probably more than any other player has, and I can say without hesitation that Reyes was the best player I have ever played.

What I think makes people think that players back in the day were better one pocket players, is that there was really no competition back then as compared to players of today. So consequently when a top player played back then, especially against a lower level player the experience factor was so tilted that it made the experienced player look better than he actually was. The few experienced players back then were way ahead of all the other players that they played and because of that it was easy for them to win a much higher percentage of the time, which imo created a false perception of the greatness of the players back then. (in terms of rating them) However, I do believe that Taylor, Bugs, Ronnie, Kelley, and a few more of the top players back then could of more than held their own against any of the players of today..with the exception of Reyes. He stands alone...:sorry that's my take.

Dr. Bill
That is some strong evidence right there.

Didn't Ronnie comment on this himself? It was reported Ronnie pretty much said (paraphrasing from an accustats conversation) "Efren would probably get me, but he'd be too tired to spend it".

I think another thing should be considered. Let's say we assume Efren player better than RA for the moment (or the other way around), it would not be fair even if you knew that as fact, because perhaps Ronnie would have upped his level of play in response to taking beatings from an animal like Efren.
 
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Island Drive

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Stroud

Stroud

Nice read about the bear. I got to chat with em at the trade show in Vegas, his character was enlightening. Your description of his skill is the way I came to understand this talented man. He thinks way different than ''all'' other pool players do. Efren is a current example of that type of player. These are the type of people, male or female that become transformed by their endeavor. I've always compared them to Picasso, Pele, Buddy Melgas, Shakespeare, Will Rogers, Fats and Rodney Dangerfield. These types of people 'represent' narrow roads in life, yet open the world to the rest of us with their skill and creativity.

I remember someone saying that Taylor, learned every pool game very quickly, and played it differently than his peers. I heard he wouldn't hesitate to bank balls in a 14.1 match.
 

Ross Keith Thompson

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one pockets best

one pockets best

Due to the fact that I stopped playing 40 years ago and did not keep up with the great players of late, I can't critique their game whether it be one pocket or whatever, but I do know something about Ronnies' one pocket game. He was without a doubt the best one pocket player in 1970 and I can't imagine anybody ever being better at the game! He was absolutely the dominate player in his day and I assume for many years later. I played him the last time in the All around of the Johnston city tournament in 1970. I won the All around that year against Lassiter and Allen but Ronnie beat me in one pocket 4 games to 2. We played winner break that year and Ronnie came back from a 2 game deficit and down 6 balls in the 3rd game and won the match. I in turn did exactly the same thing to Lassiter. Down 4 games to 2 and my opponent had six in his pocket and I pulled it out 4 to 2. But my opinion of his one pocket game is he had reached the highest level that could be reached, I just can't imagine that someone could reach a higher level of play than Ronnie!
 

fred bentivegna

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Due to the fact that I stopped playing 40 years ago and did not keep up with the great players of late, I can't critique their game whether it be one pocket or whatever, but I do know something about Ronnies' one pocket game. He was without a doubt the best one pocket player in 1970 and I can't imagine anybody ever being better at the game! He was absolutely the dominate player in his day and I assume for many years later. I played him the last time in the All around of the Johnston city tournament in 1970. I won the All around that year against Lassiter and Allen but Ronnie beat me in one pocket 4 games to 2. We played winner break that year and Ronnie came back from a 2 game deficit and down 6 balls in the 3rd game and won the match. I in turn did exactly the same thing to Lassiter. Down 4 games to 2 and my opponent had six in his pocket and I pulled it out 4 to 2. But my opinion of his one pocket game is he had reached the highest level that could be reached, I just can't imagine that someone could reach a higher level of play than Ronnie!
You do remember whose cue stick you used in that All-Around don't you?

Beard
 

Fatboy

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Could he of faded it when Ronnie was at the top of his game?
They call him Roboman or something like that, but I have seen him lose his cool. Ronny would have had him tearing his hair out in a couple hours. Plus, his moving is weak for a top player, but he more than makes up for it with shotmaking and cueball control. That is the style of modern day one pocket.

In the day, I don't think he could hang with Ronny.

He has to get credit for winning the US Open One Pocket, but I think Biado will pass him up shortly as the best Filipino one pocket player.
Thats right, he reminds me of myself(at a much higher level-of course) he has more fire power than moving ability. Same for me,

I watched 1P Rich beat him in Santa Monica-first time they played I heard Rich lost. Orcullo was leaving return banks, shooting the wrong ball etc. hell i could see it and i'm a B player at best playing 1P. I do believe he will become better at one pocket, I watched him beat Cory in that ~6 ours session, his last 7 or 8 and out was AMAZING<----that kind of fire power, is like a punchers chance in boxing. you cant ever count him out. When he learns to move he will be a top 1P player-not just fire power.

I honestly think great 1P players are born to a extent, the creativity Efren has isn't learned IMO. Same for Cory. I dont think Denis will ever have that creativity, i know i sure don't. I try and once in a while come with a shot but not like solid 1P players seem to do often. Chohan could come with sweep shots from nowhere pretty often, he will never have the fire power denis has, some guys(ronnie) have/had both.
 

Fatboy

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I am sure you wish you would have played just for the experience. I saw Ronnie here and there and would have a little small talk near the bar but never got to play him, wish I would have though even though he was at the end of his road.

he asked me to play a few times 5 years before he passed, i ducked him. and now I regret it. This thought has passed thru my thoughts many times, i just never said anything.
 

Fatboy

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Dr Bill brought up a good point, 40 years ago there was not as many people playing 1P as there are now, in the past 30 years its became "the" game in America, and there are lots more guys playing, young guys under 30 that can really play.

When i started going to the pool room in 85 i'd say 40%-50% was one pocket action, some one handed(dont see that much anymore), by 95 80% of the action was 1P, now its 95% of the action on the west coast anyways. Im in europe right now, there is ZERO 1P here, everyone is keen to play it with me, there is lots of interest from most everyone i meet here to play 1P, one guy is a 200 ball runner in straight pool-21 years old. problem is its a gambling game and there is no action here. So when i leave they dont play it any more,

Back to the topic,

Ronnie was a great gambler, so was "Red", and other players of that era were too, perhaps better gamblers than todays players. Thats what made Ronnie so great IMO. He could gamble, i men really gamble. not one set and out/cry. With so many more people playing 1P there is naturally a higher level of competition, thus the top guy has to be better now than the top guy from 40 years ago, I think, no knock on RA, just a numbers game. IMO Efren is the guy to beat, i said that the first time i saw him in hardtimes in 86 or 87 and nobody was paying attention to him. To this day i still think efren is the best i ever saw, and someday i might see someone better, not yet tho....
 

gulfportdoc

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Dr Bill brought up a good point, 40 years ago there was not as many people playing 1P as there are now, in the past 30 years its became "the" game in America, and there are lots more guys playing, young guys under 30 that can really play.

When RA started playing 1P he approached it with a style no one had seen before. He played by the seat of his pants, moved a lot of balls, and put the emphasis on running out. Before that, guys played the game in a safer fashion. RA had a unique spatial ability to see the entire table in relation to his pocket.

So as RA quickly became the dominant 1P player up through the 1980's, he pulled everyone along with him. Many of the guys played a little looser, and with a different objective. But RA was the best at what he did.

Today most of the gunslingers coming to 1P from 9/10-ball always try to run out, not knowing the classic 1P shots. But in the past few years the young turks have realized there is more to the game than running 8 into their hole. Guys like SVB, Alex, Frost, etc. have developed into more well rounded 1P players.

As far as Reyes, he was also unique. He was a prodigy like Hawking, Einstein, Glenn Gould, Murray Rothbard, etc., who comes along only every several generations. One can't "learn" the way Efren played in the 1990's. Almost no one has the ability to both visualize and execute his style of play.

But both RA and Reyes were probably equally outstanding from their respective contemporary competitors.

Doc
 

Fatboy

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When RA started playing 1P he approached it with a style no one had seen before. He played by the seat of his pants, moved a lot of balls, and put the emphasis on running out. Before that, guys played the game in a safer fashion. RA had a unique spatial ability to see the entire table in relation to his pocket.

So as RA quickly became the dominant 1P player up through the 1980's, he pulled everyone along with him. Many of the guys played a little looser, and with a different objective. But RA was the best at what he did.

Today most of the gunslingers coming to 1P from 9/10-ball always try to run out, not knowing the classic 1P shots. But in the past few years the young turks have realized there is more to the game than running 8 into their hole. Guys like SVB, Alex, Frost, etc. have developed into more well rounded 1P players.

As far as Reyes, he was also unique. He was a prodigy like Hawking, Einstein, Glenn Gould, Murray Rothbard, etc., who comes along only every several generations. One can't "learn" the way Efren played in the 1990's. Almost no one has the ability to both visualize and execute his style of play.

But both RA and Reyes were probably equally outstanding from their respective contemporary competitors.

Doc

great oct, well said.:):)
 

lll

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When RA started playing 1P he approached it with a style no one had seen before. He played by the seat of his pants, moved a lot of balls, and put the emphasis on running out. Before that, guys played the game in a safer fashion. RA had a unique spatial ability to see the entire table in relation to his pocket.

So as RA quickly became the dominant 1P player up through the 1980's, he pulled everyone along with him. Many of the guys played a little looser, and with a different objective. But RA was the best at what he did.

Today most of the gunslingers coming to 1P from 9/10-ball always try to run out, not knowing the classic 1P shots. But in the past few years the young turks have realized there is more to the game than running 8 into their hole. Guys like SVB, Alex, Frost, etc. have developed into more well rounded 1P players.

As far as Reyes, he was also unique. He was a prodigy like Hawking, Einstein, Glenn Gould, Murray Rothbard, etc., who comes along only every several generations. One can't "learn" the way Efren played in the 1990's. Almost no one has the ability to both visualize and execute his style of play.

But both RA and Reyes were probably equally outstanding from their respective contemporary competitors.

Doc
glen gould and the goldberg variations with his humming in the background:frus
i love bach
:sorry
:focus
 

gulfportdoc

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glen gould and the goldberg variations with his humming in the background:frus
i love bach:sorry:focus
Yeah, sometimes they were able to block out the humming; sometimes not.

I heard him in recital in Cincinnati at Wilson Auditorium. It was either '63 or '64, and the performance was galvanizing. I didn't realize at the time that he soon would give up live performances exclusively for recording. But what recordings they were!

Doc
 

lll

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Yeah, sometimes they were able to block out the humming; sometimes not.

I heard him in recital in Cincinnati at Wilson Auditorium. It was either '63 or '64, and the performance was galvanizing. I didn't realize at the time that he soon would give up live performances exclusively for recording. But what recordings they were!

Doc
glen gould was the efren of the piano interpretimg bach:)
jmho
icbw
 
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