One pocket handi-cap rating & comparison system

johnnytronic

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I've been working on this for awhile. Some players have been asking me to release this because they want to know how the spots work without investing too much money.

The most important concept to gather from this document is the relationship between the handicaps--that you see why one is better than the other.
The actual theoretical percentages that I used can to a degree be arbitrary. If you think a ball is worth 6% vs 11.1%, it's almost subjective.

This is not a complete document yet and based off of my personal experience --with some help from the Ghost. However, he has not seen this yet.

I also released this with the intent of helping the game evolve. I noticed some of the players that are not from Chicago have never heard of these spots.
I invented some of my own but they may be considered fantasy and more for entertainment value.
I hope to open some doors for wild card style games, creativity and methods for modifying classic handy-caps

There is a .pdf attached and an image of that PDF. The original document is made in excel and I can edit and evolve it.

 

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beatle

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i dont understand how you arrived at all of your values and just what they mean to you in relation to the spot.

just like the first three for instance 9,8 is 11% 10,8 is double that 22% but 11,8 is only about 10% more at 23%.

the relationship to your spots and the numbers dont work. you are on the right track but need some adjustments.
 

LSJohn

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you are on the right track but need some adjustments.
I agree. You have some interesting ideas, Johnny, but a theoretical edge over 100% is impossible. An edge of 100% would mean that you'd automatically win every time.

(BTW, grammar-Nazi me notices "better then." That is not proper English... should be "better than.")
 

johnnytronic

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I will fix all the grammar issues. As I said it's a work in progress and I appreciate the feedback. There are more then a few misspellings as well.

No, a 100% edge does not mean you would win every time. It would only mean that you "should" win every time if you were playing an equal opponent. When I say win every time, that statistically would mean more like every session and not every game. I can give a guy I'm equal to a giant spot and win a game or two over a long session.

A 100% in my perspective would mean that I'm twice as good as you are
or would win 10 games in a race to 15 and you would win 5--Playing even.
 

johnnytronic

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i dont understand how you arrived at all of your values and just what they mean to you in relation to the spot.

just like the first three for instance 9,8 is 11% 10,8 is double that 22% but 11,8 is only about 10% more at 23%.

the relationship to your spots and the numbers dont work. you are on the right track but need some adjustments.
I made an error at 11/8. Should be 33.3%. Good catch

When the lesser player is still going to 8, I have a single ball worth 11.1%, hence giving up two balls would be worth 22.2%.

If the player is going to 7 and your giving up a ball, I have it worth 13.5%.
So 8/7 is 2.4% better than 9/8.
 

baby huey

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Just to chime in some, spots like 9/8, 10/8 are much different than 8/7, 8/6 and etc. Remember when you play even up you have to beat your opponent by at least 8/7 to win the game. So when you spot down like 8/7 you have to beat your opponent by at least 8/6. This fact along with the re-spotting of balls in the 9/8 and 10/8 spots puts balls back in play which is an advantage to the better player. I'm not sure how to determine spot % advantages as shown but I give credit to making an attempt to provide clarity to matching up or tournament play. I remember match-ups that both players spotted each other 9/8 on their break. Figure that one out.
 

lll

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I made an error at 11/8. Should be 33.3%. Good catch

When the lesser player is still going to 8, I have a single ball worth 11.1%, hence giving up two balls would be worth 22.2%.

If the player is going to 7 and your giving up a ball, I have it worth 13.5%.
So 8/7 is 2.4% better than 9/8.
i think you should make it clear for whom (stronger vs weaker player ) it is better
 

johnnytronic

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i think you should make it clear for whom (stronger vs weaker player ) it is better
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
In the section of "create additional value" this in almost all cases suggests to how the player being spotted can manipulate the edge in his/her favor.

For example, if you are receiving 1 pick & the hit--you can add some more power to your standard breaking style in hopes to push a couple more balls towards your pocket. This additional energy into the rack will surely leak out a ball to your opponents pocket. Knowing this, you will simply pick that leaked ball as your own. It could back fire if you get too greedy.

I wanted to create a document/flyer/poster that can be hung in a pool hall or should be hung in a pool hall.
 

lll

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I made an error at 11/8. Should be 33.3%. Good catch

When the lesser player is still going to 8, I have a single ball worth 11.1%, hence giving up two balls would be worth 22.2%.

If the player is going to 7 and your giving up a ball, I have it worth 13.5%.
So 8/7 is 2.4% better than 9/8.
i think you should make it clear for whom (stronger vs weaker player ) it is better
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
.
the higher the percentage number the better the game is for the weaker player
ie if i am the weaker player i woud rather get 8/7 than 9/8 since it favors me by 2.4% based on your calculations
for players new to the game it may not be obvious
nice chart...appreciate the effort johnny
 

johnnytronic

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This is correct, higher % equals better for the weaker player.
If your getting beat by better player and he's not willing to budge in his handicap--see if you can get it 5% better with a modification using this system.

A revision was put in. Over a 100 edits.
 

Miller

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a few years back, I geeked out and created my own algorithm which illustrated every conceivable ball count and favorable/win percentage at that finite point in the game. intended purpose/thought at the time is that it could be a quantitative tool in shot selection. I think it was reliable, but like any model not necessarily valid.......
 

beatle

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best way ive found and i have proficiency in math is to just use the old how many balls you think you are better or worse than the other player.
i like to have at least 3 balls the best of it so i can adjust a little and stall so i can keep my customer for a long time.

the added benefit which is huge is that others see what your game is and compare your opponents game to theirs and you also get the best of it against all the others in the pool room.

once you play anyone a fair game your speed is clocked and everyone can now make a game you cant win at.
 

darmoose

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best way ive found and i have proficiency in math is to just use the old how many balls you think you are better or worse than the other player.
i like to have at least 3 balls the best of it so i can adjust a little and stall so i can keep my customer for a long time.

the added benefit which is huge is that others see what your game is and compare your opponents game to theirs and you also get the best of it against all the others in the pool room.

once you play anyone a fair game your speed is clocked and everyone can now make a game you cant win at.
I prefer at least a six ball advantage, myself.:lol:lol Unfortunately, I have not found a way to get that kinda edge at my local room where everybody knows everybody else. So, how do you accomplish this, short of hypnotism?

If the answer is play where nobody knows you, that is not realistic for most, or very few, or anybody today.:sorry


:)
 

Hardmix

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I have a novel idea....why not make a fair game and just play better than your opponent! Life is too short to sit around posturing trying to get the nuts to play for smallish stakes, which most games are.
 

darmoose

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I have a novel idea....why not make a fair game and just play better than your opponent! Life is too short to sit around posturing trying to get the nuts to play for smallish stakes, which most games are.

xactly my point, Ben.:D
 

beatle

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thats fine if you are playing pool for fun even if betting cash. but if trying to really make money at the game then you have to handle yourself differently.

neither case is wrong just different. i supported myself gambling so what i did gambling determined my future.

and i stalled in my home pool rooms for years. played better when i had to and drawn out games that were easy and played badly against the weak players so it always looked like they had a chance.
 

johnnytronic

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a few years back, I geeked out and created my own algorithm which illustrated every conceivable ball count and favorable/win percentage at that finite point in the game. intended purpose/thought at the time is that it could be a quantitative tool in shot selection. I think it was reliable, but like any model not necessarily valid.......
If you have this in a document can you PM it to me?
It may open up additional insights.
I guess to a degree this chart can be considered an algorithm (simple) but hopefully presented in a manner that is easy to grasp.

I could of taken another approach which might have been perceived as even simpler and maybe we can try it. I could of said 9/8 is equal to let's say level 1.0, 10/8 is equal to 2 points or level 2.0 etc....The hit and the pick would probably be equal to 3.7 or 4 points. Then Hustler(A) could derive that from Hustler(B) he gets a level 3 spot (11/8) but, statistically he's a net looser. He can then reference the system and look for a level 3.5 spot or an equal 3.0 spot that is completely different--lets say the breaks and move a ball to the spot.

Even though these points are deemed equal--one player can use creativity
to his advantage.
 

johnnytronic

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what I'm a little surprised of that no one brought up the psychological aspect of spotting a lesser player.

When we spot a lesser player I would say almost all gamblers are still going to offer a spot that has him favored by a minimum of 1/2 a ball, ideally a full ball.

Ghost and I have gone into many discussions about what we can label as the confidence meter. Depending on how solid your character is--the confidence meter can be more or less volatile. This is probably a good subject for another thread but definitely has dynamics with my chart.
 

Billy Jackets

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what I'm a little surprised of that no one brought up the psychological aspect of spotting a lesser player.

When we spot a lesser player I would say almost all gamblers are still going to offer a spot that has him favored by a minimum of 1/2 a ball, ideally a full ball.

Ghost and I have gone into many discussions about what we can label as the confidence meter. Depending on how solid your character is--the confidence meter can be more or less volatile. This is probably a good subject for another thread but definitely has dynamics with my chart.
The amount of the bet is also a factor with more people than you would probably imagine.
Never miss a ball for 10 dollars ,can't make the game ball 1 out of 10 for 100.
Also, sharking, some people are totally destroyed by it.
I think mostly because it is such a sign of disrespect.
Now, you no longer want to beat the guy at pool , you want to cave his head in with a pool ball.
Even the environment can be a factor, I know of pool rooms that have so many distractions that anyone not used to it is going to be at a real disadvantage.
Here's a little for instance.
Road man and backer come in, and make a game.
Road man goes down to shoot his game ball and opponent says that's good and he rakes the balls.
Problem is , it wasn't his opponent , it was somebody in the back of the crowd and nobody else heard it. {right}
Now roadman has moved the balls and loses.
Just sayin.....theres a heck of a lot more to this pool game than shooting balls in the hole, and if you don't know that ,you have probably been victimized all your life and don't even know it.
One more for the road.
Very well known road player comes in a place and gets in a game for 100. His backer goes over on the next table and is playing 5 dollar nine ball.
Roadman wins the first game , local guys backer says I'm out, and goes and pays roadmans backer .
Roadman racks the balls anyway, either didn't hear him or is brain dead.
Local guy {who is definately on air} goes ahead and breaks anyway and wins that game , his backer calmly goes over and collects a hundred from roadmans backer.
Roadman proceeds to lose 1700.00 after the game should have been over with him up 100.
His backer took a bath because they were both asleep at the wheel.
Everybody in the room knew what happened except roadman and his backer, it was hilarious.
These are not old wives tales, I was there for both of them.
 
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