OK Freddie...Lets talk about Fat's....

SJDinPHX

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Lets put this Fat's thing to rest...I don't think anyone, including myself...ever said Fats wasn't a colorful character, and fun to be around, and listen to. However to many, his constant self-glorification could be a bit much, at times.

His conquest over Richie, is well documented, most others are not...Many people lay claim, to having 'been there' (not saying you weren't)... but actually very few were "there" except for RA, and the Jansco's... I happened to be in frequent contact, with both RF and RA,, at that time, and, as has been said by many, that RA was in with Fatty. I cannot honestly say, whether he was or wasn't. It would not be a real shocker, if he were !... I only know Fats, jacked Richie around, outsmarted him, and got the cash.

Going back to some years earlier, Joanne Jansco, who WAS THERE for sure, has stated that "Fats was flat broke, and in considerable debt to her father George"...He was headed for extinction, When the movie "The Hustler" came out, in '61. Joanie says George encouraged Fat's, to insist that the Gleason character was actually him, and to take the credit for it, and actually pursue legal action with Tevis, to that end.

I don't know for sure, how that was eventually resolved, but we all know (or should know) that it was a miraculous resurection for Fatty, and expert con man that he was, he milked it to the max... Not saying there was anything wrong with that, but one must wonder, how a washed up, over the hill, broke pool hustler, living in "Nowhere, Illinois".. may have lived out his years, were it not for Walter Tevis, and the success of the movie. Not to mention, the prodding (again according Joanne) of one smart cookie, George Jansco.

Fat's was a real live "Damon Runyonesque" character, who lived a colorful, and exciting life. His exploits were many, and we heard most of them from him...He was off the charts, when it came to "the brag" and he had enough charisma, to pull it off. I certainly can respect that.

However, I don't think there need be any 'jealousy' involved..Might check with your paisan Danny D on that... Those who believe he was a "really great pool player"...EVER, at any game...are simply under the Fat man's spell...and refuse to recognize, there were always 'hundreds' of players, who played better than him, at any point in his life.
 
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Fast Lenny

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Lets put this Fat's thing to rest...I don't think anyone, including myself...ever said Fats wasn't a colorful character, and fun to be around, and listen to. However to many, his constant self-glorification could be a bit much, at times.

His conquest over Richie, is well documented, most others are not...Many people lay claim, to having 'been there' (not saying you weren't)... but actually very few were "there" except for RA, and the Jansco's... I happened to be in frequent contact, with both RF and RA,, at that time, and, as has been said by many, that RA was in with Fatty. I cannot honestly say, whether he was or wasn't. It would not be a real shocker, if he were !... I only know Fats, jacked Richie around, outsmarted him, and got the cash.

Going back to some years earlier, Joanne Jansco, who WAS THERE for sure, has stated that "Fats was flat broke, and in considerable debt to her father George"...He was headed for extinction, When the movie "The Hustler" came out, in '61. Joanie says George encouraged Fat's, to insist that the Gleason character was actually him, and to take the credit for it, and actually pursue legal action with Tevis, to that end.

I don't know for sure, how that was eventually resolved, but we all know (or should know) that it was a miraculous resurection for Fatty, and expert con man that he was, he milked it to the max... Not saying there was anything wrong with that, but one must wonder, how a washed up, over the hill, broke pool hustler, living in "Nowhere, Illinois".. may have lived out his years, were it not for Walter Tevis, and the success of the movie. Not to mention, the prodding (again according Joanne) of one smart cookie, George Jansco.

Fat's was a real live "Damon Runyonesque" character, who lived a colorful, and exciting life. His exploits were many, and we heard most of them from him...He was off the charts, when it came to "the brag" and he had enough charisma, to pull it off. I certainly can respect that.

However, I don't think there need be any 'jealousy' involved..Might check with your paisan Danny D on that... Those who believe he was a "really great pool player"...EVER, at any game...are simply under the Fat man's spell...and refuse to recognize, there were always 'hundreds' of players, who played better than him, at any point in his life.
What speed would you put Fats at?
 

SJDinPHX

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I'm sure HE will counter, when HE wakes up...

I'm sure HE will counter, when HE wakes up...

What speed would you put Fats at?
Lightning Leonard,

I think Fat's played better than a top level shortstop, (at most games) but never better than a mid-range touring pro. The guys you named, and many just below them, would have all been giving him weight, and spotting him the shark...(like RA, you can add another ball for that) IMO they'd still win.

I'd like to hear Cardones take on Fatty, as a player !..:cool:

EDIT...I guess he already did...I missed it, but I concur...http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=89769&postcount=24
 
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Fast Lenny

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Lightning Leonard,

I think Fat's played better than a top level shortstop, (at most games) but never better than a mid-range touring pro. The guys you named, and many just below them, would have all been giving him weight, and spotting him the shark...(like RA, you can add another ball for that) IMO they'd still win.

I'd like to hear Cardones take on Fatty, as a player !..:cool:
So it took a top pro or mid level pro to get the cash from him is what your saying? Sounds like he played pretty good then. I thought he played about Preacher Ronn's speed. :)
 

SJDinPHX

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So it took a top pro or mid level pro to get the cash from him is what your saying? Sounds like he played pretty good then. I thought he played about Preacher Ronn's speed. :)
I didn't say that Lenny, I said the guys in that elite group, and many just below them... would ALL be giving him weight !

PS..Ronn would have needed weight from Fatty..:cool: (at least when Fat's was young enough to defend himself)..:p..Unlike some dummie's...Fats was too smart to play, when he became a helpless invalid..:eek:
 
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Alfie Taylor

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About "The Hustler"

About "The Hustler"

I'm sure the debate about "The Hustler" and it's connection to real people will rage on 'till the cloth falls off the tables. SJD should have a pretty good take on it. This has nothing to do with Fatty's skill level. That's another debate.

However I do have a cincinatti Newspaper article on Toby Kavenaugh. You might know of him: He was Walter Tevis' friend and had a pool room where Tevis hung out while he was going to college in Lexington. Toby said he and Walter talked incessantly while he was writing his book.Toby doesn't mention Fats in the article but he does talk about one wall in his pool room that's covered with Eddie Taylor Memorbilia because he said "Eddie Taylor was the influence for the character "Fast Eddie". Now, Tevis is gone and Toby Kavenaugh was murdered so both of the horse's mouth's are no longer with us. Eddie liked Toby so much, when he found out he was killed, he called me repeatedly because night after night he was too upset to sleep.

I do have a letter from Fat's wife, Evelyn, talking about Fats taking in more than a hundred stray cats and mooching food for them daily at the local fast food places. (It's in my book) He also found me out in the cold in Johnston City because I was too young to get in and told the Janscos to back off "He's with me." Any of you "sharks" wanna match up with the fat man playing some heads up humanities?

"I believe Minnesota Fats did more for pool than anyone ever."
Eddie "The Knoxville Bear" Taylor. (that's in my video).

Damn, Alfie. Can't you ever stop pitching your wares?
Keep it nice. Alfie
 
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fred bentivegna

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I will eventually respond, but first...

I will eventually respond, but first...

....His conquest over Richie, is well documented, most others are not...Many people lay claim, to having 'been there' (not saying you weren't)... but actually very few were "there" except for RA, and the Jansco's... ....

Going back to some years earlier, Joanne Jansco, who WAS THERE for sure,
I want to piss on your post. I am sick of your poisonous asides, and aspersions all pointed towards discrediting any ****in thing I might have to say. You can, as you just recently told me, stick that, "..not saying you were'nt" and, "who WAS THERE for sure," far up where the sun dont shine.

If you want to have a conversation about something with me, dont start off by pissing in the well and then asking me if I would like a drink.

You obviously have a hard on for Fats -- and me. Apparently you think, and I take it somewhat as a compliment, that he and I have similar personalities, and for whatever reason that bugs the shit out of you.
But lets finally get something straight. Contrary to the image that you have striven to perpetuate, as far as the pool world goes, pool history, pool knowledge, pool associations, pool everything, etc., I can give you 3 hit and the pick. I have been more places, know more players, played more players, attended more tournaments, am known by more players, and more importantly, LIKED and respected by more players than you ever dreamed of.
Anybody who has ever attended DCC knows all this to be true.
Maybe the only guy in the whole pool world who has a real problem with me, is YOU.

I have had 3 pool players choose to come live with me when they were dying. I have been asked to given the Eulogies for at least six or seven pool players. There is a pool player, and I shouldnt even say this, that is still alive and has asked me to do his Eulogy when he dies -- and he lives out of state.

So all these people must either be morons, fools, and poor judges of character -- or maybe you need to take a look at your own findings.

Beard
 

petie

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I'm sure the debate about "The Hustler" and it's connection to real people will rage on 'till the cloth falls off the tables. SJD should have a pretty good take on it. This has nothing to do with Fatty's skill level. That's another debate.

However I do have a cincinatti Newspaper article on Toby Kavenaugh. You might know of him: He was Walter Tevis' friend and had a pool room where Tevis hung out while he was going to college in Lexington. Toby said he and Walter talked incessantly while he was writing his book.Toby doesn't mention Fats in the article but he does talk about one wall in his pool room that's covered with Eddie Taylor Memorbilia because he said "Eddie Taylor was the influence for the character "Fast Eddie". Now, Tevis is gone and Toby Kavenaugh was murdered so both of the horse's mouth's are no longer with us. Eddie liked Toby so much, when he found out he was killed, he called me repeatedly because night after night he was too upset to sleep.

I do have a letter from Fat's wife, Evelyn, talking about Fats taking in more than a hundred stray cats and mooching food for them daily at the local fast food places. (It's in my book) He also found me out in the cold in Johnston City because I was too young to get in and told the Janscos to back off "He's with me." Any of you "sharks" wanna match up with the fat man playing some heads up humanities?

"I believe Minnesota Fats did more for pool than anyone ever."
Eddie "The Knoxville Bear" Taylor. (that's in my video).

Damn, Alfie. Can't you ever stop pitching your wares?
Keep it nice. Alfie
For me there has never been a debate. The use of his persona in Tevis' book is bold faced and transparent. Too bad he wasted any money on lawyers. Although I haven't read the book, I'm told the character in the book had a tick or spasm when he talked. This was true of Fats. They edited and shot around it in the ESPN series with all the legends then living but in the 60's Fats had a show on television where he played movie stars and showed how he hustled pool. I believe I saw every episode. He would talk for a while and then on cue he would suddenly suck in his breath and his neck muscle would tighten up and he would sort of jerk his head.
 

androd

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When Fat was around Houston in the early to mid sixties, He handily beat Cannonball Chapman and U.J.Puckett playing even. :eek: I don't remember anyone trying to give them more than a 8/7. :)
Rod.
 

SJDinPHX

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The Beard/Duck show, is over ! (thank God)

The Beard/Duck show, is over ! (thank God)

But lets finally get something straight. Contrary to the image that you have striven to perpetuate, as far as the pool world goes, pool history, pool knowledge, pool associations, pool everything, etc., I can give you 3 hit and the pick. I have been more places, know more players, played more players, attended more tournaments, am known by more players, and more importantly, LIKED and respected by more players than you ever dreamed of. <--Better choice of words, might be 'tolerated'
Anybody who has ever attended DCC knows all this to be true.

So all these people must either be morons, fools, and poor judges of character -- or maybe you need to take a look at your own findings. <--Thanks, but 3 years is long enough.

Beard
I will try to keep my response short as possible, and TO THE POINT !.. Something which you appear to be incapable of...I have never doubted your circle of aquaintences in the pool world, far exceeds mine... I have said so many times, but this is one area, where you seem to think I am extremely 'jealous' of you, (or by extension, Fats)...Nothing could be further from the truth...I would eat a 44 magnum, before I would trade lives, with either of you. You both have/had, some good qualities. However common courtesy, and humility, are not among them.

It is when you work so hard, to try and belittle or mock my life, or lifestyle (deny that !) that I may bristle, and defend myself...I have often pointed out to you, that I don't NEED the adoration and glorification, that you do...I am actually ashamed, that I have allowed you, to goad me into 'bragging', these past few years, more than I have the entire rest of my life...I guess its contageous.

It has become obvious, we have run our course, as I cannot say ANYTHING, that you do not take as a personal affront..Ask yourself why that is. With all your 'millions of friends', (and my "meager minions") and your humanitarian deeds, would you even care what I say ?

As with most of my posts, I can be on a totally different subject (in this case Fat's) and you always manage to find SOMETHING to take personal, intended or not. You tend to treat them as sacrilage, which is just a reflection of YOUR inflated ego.

At any rate, my 'kid gloves' are worn out...The Beard/Duck show is over...You win...(I don't know what) but I do concede...Continue on with your irrascible (but monotonous)... bragging, and self-engrandizement...I'm sure everyone believes your every word, is the "Gospool" truth.

Have a great rest of your life Fred..:)
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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Oh no Ducky, you ain't getting off that easy. You & Freddy have done this before, 2 years and 4 months ago to be exact. Let me help out a little with these 20 fun-filled pages:D.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3301



SJDinPHX said:
I certainly agree with most of Doc's opinions on the Fat man. I was only around him enough to absorb (not necessarily appreciate) his inccessant con and braggadacio.

I never resented him, but he was only tolerable (to me) in very small doses. He could easily give our top two horn blower's on this forum...8 to 4 and the break, in the self engrandisement department.

That being said, he could be a very unique and entertaining individual. He had the bufoonery of W.C. Fields, crossed with the caustic wit of Groucho Marx or Don Rickles.

I know he was instrumental in getting the Jansco's to include one pocket in their first tournament, but so was Squirrel, Beanie, RA, both Red's, and all the other top one holer's of that era. It was allready an established action game. He just had George's ear a little better than the rest.

To say that he was "responsible" for bringing 1P out of the closet, is in IMHO, a bit of a stretch.
Fat's was all about "Fat's", and I don't think he ever even thought much beyond HIS agenda, as far as promoting ANYTHING.
That doesn't make him a bad guy, its just the way he was.

Thanks to Tevis, he gained a level of notariety he almost certainly, would NEVER have enjoyed... if it had not been for the success of the book and the movie. He should have kissed him, instead of suing him.
But I guess that was a necessary step to gaining that notariety.

He is definately worthy of a "lifetime award" of some sort...maybe even a "special" award of some kind, due to the colorful character that he always was.

But there is simply too long a list, of other's who did more for the game (Tevis, Newman, Gleason, Cruise ???)...and a whole bunch of guy's who played it better, than Fat's ever did, even in his prime. Just my 2 cents.
fred bentivegna said:
What! Are you nuts!


Newman, Gleason and the fag, over Fats?!! Tevis is full of shit saying, "work of fiction, no real people." Bull shit! He told me that same bag of puce in Dayton OH. In the book he describes a rat joint that I played in on Congress and State, to a tee, a real place; hamburger joint up front, pool tables in the back. He has a guy in there that is supposedly fictional. He is the first guy that Eddie plays after his thumbs heal. The old slavic guy that took up hustling after he came to America in his 50s. That was Tom Smith, my good friend. There aint no coincidence like that. Two slavs that took up pool in their 50s? And if you knew Tom, like I did, Tevis's description of him is dead on. Tom hustled pool up until he was a 100 years old! He was a gigolo when he was in his eighties. Big, strong, bull of a man. Faught off a stick up guy when he was 90. Refused to give up the money to a man with a .45. Took a pistol whipping instead. I'd walk thru a long puddle of Figeroa's bullsh*t, in my bare feet, to spend some time around Fats.
At Johnston City, any broke, young pool player could get an automatic hot $20 bill from Fatty, no questions asked. A $20 bite back then was a weeks rent and 3 or 4 meals. That I know from personal experience. A guy named Lindy who used to live down there, when he found out I was empty, he said, c'mon with me, Fatty will put you in action. Lindy intro'd me to Fats as a young, broke pool player, and Fatty hit his roll and peeled off a tough 20, no problem. There was a line of guys that went on the books. I watched him play Ronnie, nobody can tell me he couldnt play.


the Beard

I know Fat's speed in his prime, from people who knew, like Marcel Camp, Chicago Pony, Gene Skinner and others.

Continue on fellas, it's gonna get a little boring soon.

Dennis
 

Alfie Taylor

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Water's a little hot

Water's a little hot

Wow! First time I've seen real duking it out in this venue.
I'm pretty new at all of this. Even my computer is gas powered. I just want to report some findings about Fats and Gleason. Everyone knows Weenie Beanie, besides being a gentleman gambler (and my best friend) was a pretty solid one-pocket player. Fats played him three times giving him a ball, twice in J.C. and once in Atlanta, and broke dead even. That's a pretty hard game to criticize. I made an earlier statement about jackie Gleason being just a pretty good player and found out I'm F.O.S. Everyone knows Jersey Red was a tremendous player. He gave Gleason nine to seven twice and got beat both times. Glad I didn't run across that Ralph Cramden fellow.

As far as Fats dealing out twenty dollar bills, those guys should have known him better. The last time I saw him we were in Vegas. He found out I went empty and waited until I was ready to leave (busted to the core) and without my saying a word, he stuck two Benjamins into my shirt pocket.
Next word I had for him was writing his eulogy.

RIP Fatty. The pool world is a more interesting place because of you.
Keep it nice. Alfie
 

wincardona

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Oh no Ducky, you ain't getting off that easy. You & Freddy have done this before, 2 years and 4 months ago to be exact. Let me help out a little with these 20 fun-filled pages:D.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3301








Continue on fellas, it's gonna get a little boring soon.

Dennis
You must have some inside information on the Duck/Beard Show. If so i'm surprised that the Duck is backing up when he still has barrels left :confused: Actually, he has as many barrels as the Beard, and he's also cheating many people of their invested time that they paid for, for the tickets to the show.

I'm missing it already, come back Shane (Ducky)

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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He is busy

He is busy

You must have some inside information on the Duck/Beard Show. If so i'm surprised that the Duck is backing up when he still has barrels left :confused: Actually, he has as many barrels as the Beard, and he's also cheating many people of their invested time that they paid for, for the tickets to the show.

I'm missing it already, come back Shane (Ducky)

Dr. Bill
I think all his time is being taken up "looking" for that check to Jet that he had promised to send -- and that he said, "was in the mail," and I was dumb enough to believe him and I fronted it to Jet myself. For whatever reason, you Billy, and all the other good people, didnt have any problem sending the donation.

Beard
 

mr3cushion

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I think all his time is being taken up "looking" for that check to Jet that he had promised to send -- and that he said, "was in the mail," and I was dumb enough to believe him and I fronted it to Jet myself. For whatever reason, you Billy, and all the other good people, didnt have any problem sending the donation.

Beard
Freddy; maybe they still have Pony Express in Arizona, or another honored UPS driver took a wrong turn. :D
The saga continues!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
http://mr3cushion.com

P.S. BTW, Had a GREAT clinic (95 students) and a FANTASTIC time in Coconut Creek, FL. I was treated like royalty. See everyone at Allen Hopkin's Expo in a few days!
 

SJDinPHX

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Oh no Ducky, you ain't getting off that easy. You & Freddy have done this before, 2 years and 4 months ago to be exact. Let me help out a little with these 20 fun-filled pages.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3301
Dennis

Dear Lintbrain,

Thank you, for pointing out that Gulfport Doc originally broached this much needed, and well debated subject, long ago....I'm sure you discovered it, while rummaging around, for ancient 'Greensh*t, to thrill us with another [sic] exciting..(zzzzzzzz) shot challenge)..:cool:

Please inform your buddy (the other RBL), and his "jock strap fixture", Mr. Pincushion, that I face the same challenges, when attempting to send YOU mail...to a "GHETTO AREA"....Namely, it being stolen by a gang banger, or USPS refusing to deliver there... Both are odds on favorites to occur !..:rolleyes:
I knew I should have sent it UPS, "signature required" (good suggestion, Mr. PinCushion. (your first EVER)..:cool:

PS..Mr. PinCushion, sir...Could we please have some demographics, on your "Free clinic" turnout ?..I.E, how many under 8 yrs.old, and how many over 90 ?..(I shall hazard a guess !.......100%)..:sorry :p
 
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