Now What would you do.

mr3cushion

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Let me put in perspective the idea behind Diagram 2.

Here's a 'Unique' Position Shot I demonstrate in my clinics and exhibitions.

I can NOT play a 4 or 5 'Natural' off the yellow ball, so I came up with this shot, and worked position into it.

View attachment 11927
 
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beatle

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so you need one ball and are going to send the cue ball around the table within a half diamond or so of two pockets trying to make a two rail bank and at the same time controlling the speed of the object ball.

if you never miss a two railer by more than a two inches it might work. but if you do miss two railers then the object ball and cueball are turned loose.

and all this is just to keep the ball in the pocket which in the next turn or so he is going to get it spotted anyway.

i am usually aggressive but here you play safe or the carom if the angle is okay.
putting two balls in play is not loss of game, and if one is close to your hole it is the preferable alternative.
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom,
I believe I'd come out of hibernation, an extended retirement of 40 or so years to play you some!!! We used to play two shot roll out back in the old days, nine ball that is, I knew this guy called Whoppy, he was a world class bumper pool player, top two or three in the country at the time, but playing nine ball he was ultra conservative!! I once saw him roll out on a spot shot!!! I gotta tell you Tom, you got him nudged! Lol, just kiddin you, hope you don't take it wrong. C'mon Tom, go for your hole here, live a little!!!
Hey Jeff, I'm glad we have some fresh meat posting on the site, welcome to the asylum. By liking this bank, you'll fit right in.
As you may or may not know, I am in the process of writing a book on One Pocket entitled "Controlled Aggression" I'll let you write the sequel "Go-fer Broke".
 
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wincardona

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so you need one ball and are going to send the cue ball around the table within a half diamond or so of two pockets trying to make a two rail bank and at the same time controlling the speed of the object ball.

if you never miss a two railer by more than a two inches it might work. but if you do miss two railers then the object ball and cueball are turned loose.

and all this is just to keep the ball in the pocket which in the next turn or so he is going to get it spotted anyway.

i am usually aggressive but here you play safe or the carom if the angle is okay.
putting two balls in play is not loss of game, and if one is close to your hole it is the preferable alternative.
Playing safe is acceptable, but I wouldn't make the 5ball shooting the carom. The only good thing that can happen for you shooting the carom is if you make it. There are too many return shots off the carom that will put you in trouble.

As far as your opponent making the 5ball on a later shot, he'll have to lose a move to do it, if he can even afford to. Plus, the 5ball is hanging in the pocket that your opponent will have a hard time controlling the cue ball off of if he decides to make it.

I don't see much wrong with playing the two railer, as long as the 5ball stays where it is. You're only about 5/1 dog to make the two railer, so if you shoot it five times you rate to win one game with the shot and on your misses you rate to win the battle for the ball two out of the other four times. Looks to me you're a favorite when shooting the two railer to score the ball before your opponent does. I like battling for the 1ball while the 5ball is hanging, so i'm probably going to choose the two railer in one of the ways it has been discussed.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Dr. Bill, you have proven to my satisfaction that in this specific case the two rail shot is safe from a double kiss. As I see it, the kiss can be fairly close. The percentages for making the shot will vary somewhat depending on the shooter.

The trouble I see is in recognizing accurately when the two balls are close enough to the same position to avoid the kiss next time. The closer to the far side rail this shot is situated the more likely a double kiss at the other end of the table.

I therefore like to establish parameters for shots which are unnecessary and carry specific risk. Given the location of the cue ball, my red line is the first diamond along the head rail. Inside that diamond, no go. Outside, then other factors can be considered.

I learned this idea from Grady many years ago when he formed a red line area regarding the cut back shot on a spotted ball. He said he would not cut at that shot if the cue ball was in the kitchen and inside the first diamond of the side rail.

This form of preplanned thinking helps keep me from making potentially poor, ego driven decisions. Sure sometimes I feel sharp enough to make the shot and I must curb my appetite but guidelines like this prevent me from overstepping.

Tom
 

mr3cushion

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Dr. Bill, you have proven to my satisfaction that in this specific case the two rail shot is safe from a double kiss. As I see it, the kiss can be fairly close. The percentages for making the shot will vary somewhat depending on the shooter.

The trouble I see is in recognizing accurately when the two balls are close enough to the same position to avoid the kiss next time. The closer to the far side rail this shot is situated the more likely a double kiss at the other end of the table.
I therefore like to establish parameters for shots which are unnecessary and carry specific risk. Given the location of the cue ball, my red line is the first diamond along the head rail. Inside that diamond, no go. Outside, then other factors can be considered.

I learned this idea from Grady many years ago when he formed a red line area regarding the cut back shot on a spotted ball. He said he would not cut at that shot if the cue ball was in the kitchen and inside the first diamond of the side rail.

This form of preplanned thinking helps keep me from making potentially poor, ego driven decisions. Sure sometimes I feel sharp enough to make the shot and I must curb my appetite but guidelines like this prevent me from overstepping.

Tom
Can you diagram what's being explained in RED, about the closeness of the balls and where, also the 1 diamond thing?
 

onepockethacker

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Just to point out to everyone... if you play the 2 railer as I have suggested there is NO CHANCE of a double kiss and less chance of leaving a return shot than playing the 2 railer the other way. My way the cue ball and object ball end up on same side of table. The other way they end up on opposite sides possibly leaving a cross corner
 

Tom Wirth

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Can you diagram what's being explained in RED, about the closeness of the balls and where, also the 1 diamond thing?
Bill, I think you are better suited than I to do that. Haven't you pointed out the same potential?



The choosing of the one diamond as a parameter is an arbitrary condition I place on a variety of shots which come up from time to time. It is based on my personal performance record. Certain shots will form and to avoid having to make boarder line decisions whether to shoot or not shoot, I have preset guidelines to help me make these decisions. Not more complicated than that, Bill.

Tom
 
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Tom Wirth

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Just to point out to everyone... if you play the 2 railer as I have suggested there is NO CHANCE of a double kiss and less chance of leaving a return shot than playing the 2 railer the other way. My way the cue ball and object ball end up on same side of table. The other way they end up on opposite sides possibly leaving a cross corner
Rob, I agree you will avoid the kiss with this path but don't you think you must be playing on a table with very fast rails to pull off your shot? I find that shot tough enough on a billiard table but then I don't have your stroke.

Tom
 

onepockethacker

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Rob, I agree you will avoid the kiss with this path but don't you think you must be playing on a table with very fast rails to pull off your shot? I find that shot tough enough on a billiard table but then I don't have your stroke.

Tom
Its definitely easier on fast equipment. The strength of the way im playing it is you don't have to worry about the double kiss. How many times under the gun have we all worrying about a double kiss either found a way to shoot into the kiss or we are so worried about it we hit the shot horribly. Plus even if I dont make it all the way back up table as long as i get back passed the side pocket I like my chances of not leaving a high percentage shot. Plus I have not touched the 5 ball which making it in this case would be trying to commit suicide
P.S. Im really just pointing out an option for members to see that they might not have recognized because most people are going to draw the cue ball with right english in this case risking the double kiss. Plus if I was at the table in this situation I might not like it because of the angle, speed of rails or cloth etc.. Just trying to show pople a different way of playing the shot.
 

mr3cushion

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Bill, I think you are better suited than I to do that. Haven't you pointed out the same potential?



The choosing of the one diamond as a parameter is an arbitrary condition I place on a variety of shots which come up from time to time. It is based on my personal performance record. Certain shots will form and to avoid having to make boarder line decisions whether to shoot or not shoot, I have preset guidelines to help me make these decisions. Not more complicated than that, Bill.

Tom
I can't diagram it, if I don't understand what's being said, RE; closeness of the balls for one and the one diamond parameter!

Tom; if you can draw lines on a photo, you can draw 2 circles for the balls and circle or square to represent where the (1 diamond area) is.
 

Tom Wirth

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Bill, these are two different concepts. Because the object ball is so close to the side rail it is more difficult to avoid the double kiss as the cue ball comes around the corner. I suggest this is because the two balls are in so close proximity to the one or the other cushion at approximately the same time.

With the object ball further from the side rail you have more room to draw the cue ball widening this angle and providing more space between the two balls and the cushions. This is all theory on my part gleaned only through experience.

The circled area is what I would call the danger area for the second kiss.

Feel free to correct me. I defer to your superior knowledge in this area.

Tom
 

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mr3cushion

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is this it rob??
cue ball could go above the side picket but i think this is the gist of the shot with inside english
not implying scratching
yes???
View attachment 11922
I can't begin to tell you, how many things that can go wrong attempting the shot in this diagram. IMHO!

#1. To even attempt this shot with ANY kind of control, you better be on a NEW or 1 or 2 week old cloth. I think I have a VERY good stroke, and, 'As diagrammed would be extremely difficult!'

#2. In order for the CB to ANY Reverse English on it when it contacts the 2nd and 3rd cushion, the OB needs to be hit at least 1/2 full! It doesn't look like you can because of the 5 ball. So, by hitting the 1 thinner and contacting the long cushion in front of the side pocket, there's NO way the CB can go around the table! Especially on a pool table, with slower cloth!

#3. You now have 2 pockets you can possibly scratch in, or catch the tit on! The side pocket and your opponents corner pocket!

#4. The speed you have to hit this shot is off the charts, especially to get the OB anywhere near the pocket, (a thin hit)! And, obviously to get around the table!

#5. BTW, didn't anyone notice the intersecting lines of the CB and OB around the middle of the table? BIG, possibility of a KISS! You do understand the OB will be moving VERY slowly hitting it thin enough so the CB to contact the long cushion in front of the side pocket! This is WHY the kiss is very present in this shot!
Let me ask a question of anyone that advocates this solution.

'What English are you going to apply on the Cue Ball for this shot?'
 

baby huey

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I'm not in a hurry to shoot at my hole in this scenario. I would try to roll the one ball atop the five ball with out making it and try to force my opponent to pocket the jarred five ball first and thus maybe getting the first shot at the spotted ball. I just don't see any upside in having two balls in play when I only need one ball.
 

mr3cushion

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Bill, these are two different concepts. Because the object ball is so close to the side rail it is more difficult to avoid the double kiss as the cue ball comes around the corner. I suggest this is because the two balls are in so close proximity to the one or the other cushion at approximately the same time.

With the object ball further from the side rail you have more room to draw the cue ball widening this angle and providing more space between the two balls and the cushions. This is all theory on my part gleaned only through experience.

The circled area is what I would call the danger area for the second kiss.

Feel free to correct me. I defer to your superior knowledge in this area.

Tom
Tom, 100% impossible to get a kiss before the 1st cushion playing the 'Natural' 3 cushion around towards the 5 ball! Because, in order to get the 1 ball down there it's a 1/4 ball hit at the most! With that being said, I think the OB's best chance of getting near the pocket is contacting the opposite long rail FIRST before drifting towards your pocket! The OB will be traveling way short of the track for the CB coming around towards the 5 ball to get the kiss there also!

There's a 'misconception' here about what English to use for these types of shots! When contacting the OB on the thin side, you DON'T have to apply draw to the CB to lengthen it! Extreme 1 or 2 O'clock English, depending on the condition of the cloth, also apply a 'soft stun' follow-thru creates the angle coming from the 3rd rail, e.g., going short off the rail!
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom, 100% impossible to get a kiss before the 1st cushion playing the 'Natural' 3 cushion around towards the 5 ball! Because, in order to get the 1 ball down there it's a 1/4 ball hit at the most! With that being said, I think the OB's best chance of getting near the pocket is contacting the opposite long rail FIRST before drifting towards your pocket! The OB will be traveling way short of the track for the CB coming around towards the 5 ball to get the kiss there also!

There's a 'misconception' here about what English to use for these types of shots! When contacting the OB on the thin side, you DON'T have to apply draw to the CB to lengthen it! Extreme 1 or 2 O'clock English, depending on the condition of the cloth, also apply a 'soft stun' follow-thru creates the angle coming from the 3rd rail, e.g., going short off the rail!
I'm sorry Bill, but I don't understand what you are saying. First, who was suggesting a possible kiss before hitting the first rail? Please try to clarify your point. Consider striking the proper angle to pocket the OB. This after all is the point of the shot.

Tom
 

mr3cushion

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I'm sorry Bill, but I don't understand what you are saying. First, who was suggesting a possible kiss before hitting the first rail? Please try to clarify your point. Consider striking the proper angle to pocket the OB. This after all is the point of the shot.

Tom
Sorry, I guess just from your diagram of the CB and OB contacting the 1st cushion at the same location! I guess I didn't get that it was at the other end of the table.

In your last diagram, looks like a very thin hit to go where the OB contacts the 1st rail. This ball will be traveling MUCH slower than the CB, NO kiss will occur!

By the time the OB gets anywhere near the area you've drawn, the CB will be long gone!

This is a 'standard' 5 cushion position shot in 3C! Playing 'opposite corner' position!

P.S. Tom, is your book going to have a DVD that accompanies the content? It would seem VERY helpful to see the execution and end result as diagrammed.
Just a thought.
 
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lll

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I can't begin to tell you, how many things that can go wrong attempting the shot in this diagram. IMHO!

#1. To even attempt this shot with ANY kind of control, you better be on a NEW or 1 or 2 week old cloth. I think I have a VERY good stroke, and, 'As diagrammed would be extremely difficult!'

#2. In order for the CB to ANY Reverse English on it when it contacts the 2nd and 3rd cushion, the OB needs to be hit at least 1/2 full! It doesn't look like you can because of the 5 ball. So, by hitting the 1 thinner and contacting the long cushion in front of the side pocket, there's NO way the CB can go around the table! Especially on a pool table, with slower cloth!

#3. You now have 2 pockets you can possibly scratch in, or catch the tit on! The side pocket and your opponents corner pocket!

#4. The speed you have to hit this shot is off the charts, especially to get the OB anywhere near the pocket, (a thin hit)! And, obviously to get around the table!

#5. BTW, didn't anyone notice the intersecting lines of the CB and OB around the middle of the table? BIG, possibility of a KISS! You do understand the OB will be moving VERY slowly hitting it thin enough so the CB to contact the long cushion in front of the side pocket! This is WHY the kiss is very present in this shot!
Let me ask a question of anyone that advocates this solution.

'What English are you going to apply on the Cue Ball for this shot?'
in my diagram i wrote the cue ball could go longer to hit above (closer to the foot rail) side of the side pocket
do any of your comments change if thats where the cue ball hits on the 2nd cushion???
my answer to your last question
im using 9 0clock english extreme
 

mr3cushion

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in my diagram i wrote the cue ball could go longer to hit above (closer to the foot rail) side of the side pocket
do any of your comments change if thats where the cue ball hits on the 2nd cushion???
my answer to your last question
im using 9 0clock english extreme


Hi Larry, in order for this type of shot to even work, you MUST contact the long cushion between the side and your corner pocket!

As for the English, because of the angle that's you need to create to go around the table with 'reverse', the CB has to 'bend or curve' from the first to the 2nd cushion! E.G., you MUST apply MAXIMUM 10 O'clock English, with a 'rapid-short' stroke!
 
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