Now What would you do.

Jeff sparks

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
2,928
Not a bad choice at all, i'm looking to do the same or something similar. The hanging ball is out of play which makes you a big favorite to win the game, no need to put it back in play unless you know it will benefit you.

Dr. Bill
If you do that my reply would be: pocket the 5; and leave you
A. Stuck inside the pocket
B. froze on the end joint
C. Froze to or stuck behind the one ball
Yep, some times you gotta clean shot at your hole for the win! Wanna take it???
As I see it, that response puts both balls back into play, maybe not in the next 2 innings, but to soon to suit me.
I would go for bstrouds choice if there wasn't a way to avoid the two railer kiss. Distance sometimes creates problems, and his shot creates distance and requires a deaf touch response in order to not leave a bank.
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062


Bill, what about playing the shot like a billiard shot. Meaning bank the 1 ball 2 rails as suggested but instead of having the cue ball take the suggested path why not put left english on it and play the cue ball side rail, side rail, end rail, side rail and back down table on your side. That way there is no chance of catching a kiss or leaving a cross corner bank


Rob; It's a good idea, but, I tell all why it would be difficult on a pool table! Especially, if the cloth is 'Old!'
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,278
Sorry Larry for the delayed reply.

Here's how I see what's going to happen if played as suggested! The kiss will occur in the shaded circle on the table!

View attachment 11921

There is a way to 'Beat' the kiss and still acquire the results needed.

I'll save it for later, to see if anyone has another idea!
I played the shot exactly the way you drew it up with 1/2 tip below center axis extreme right spin and shot it 10 times, only kissed once.:confused: I thought it would kiss much more than once but that's what happened. My Diamond table has fast cushions if that means anything, I don't know. However, I still don't know if I would shoot the shot because of the speed needed to lengthen the cue ball to reach the top rail. Because of the harder speed I was losing control of the OB and left too many return shots. So I tried another method and was pleasantly surprised to see the results I was getting. As follows. I shot the two rail shot with a softer speed using center axis inside spin, wow, the cue ball went straight across table hitting a diamond before the side pocket and then went half way cross table. The OB went consistently toward the pocket with the speed to just reach the pocket.:) Maybe the speed of my table is just right for this shot, but I would play this shot if it came up on my table. Try it on your table, it was a beautiful thing to watch.:D

Dr. Bill
 

Jeff sparks

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
2,928

I played the shot exactly the way you drew it up with 1/2 tip below center axis extreme right spin and shot it 10 times, only kissed once.:confused: I thought it would kiss much more than once but that's what happened. My Diamond table has fast cushions if that means anything, I don't know. However, I still don't know if I would shoot the shot because of the speed needed to lengthen the cue ball to reach the top rail. Because of the harder speed I was losing control of the OB and left too many return shots. So I tried another method and was pleasantly surprised to see the results I was getting. As follows. I shot the two rail shot with a softer speed using center axis inside spin, wow, the cue ball went straight across table hitting a diamond before the side pocket and then went half way cross table. The OB went consistently toward the pocket with the speed to just reach the pocket.:) Maybe the speed of my table is just right for this shot, but I would play this shot if it came up on my table. Try it on your table, it was a beautiful thing to watch.:D

Dr. Bill

How many times out of 10 did you win the game and with center axis right spin, medium speed, where did whitey end up?
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062

I played the shot exactly the way you drew it up with 1/2 tip below center axis extreme right spin and shot it 10 times, only kissed once.:confused: I thought it would kiss much more than once but that's what happened. My Diamond table has fast cushions if that means anything, I don't know. However, I still don't know if I would shoot the shot because of the speed needed to lengthen the cue ball to reach the top rail. Because of the harder speed I was losing control of the OB and left too many return shots. So I tried another method and was pleasantly surprised to see the results I was getting. As follows. I shot the two rail shot with a softer speed using center axis inside spin, wow, the cue ball went straight across table hitting a diamond before the side pocket and then went half way cross table. The OB went consistently toward the pocket with the speed to just reach the pocket.:) Maybe the speed of my table is just right for this shot, but I would play this shot if it came up on my table. Try it on your table, it was a beautiful thing to watch.:D

Dr. Bill


Billy; I was sought of able to follow your post. I'm still not quite not sure, 'where and how' the CB wound up on the table! I guess I'm more of a 'visual' kind of guy!

I think I'll be able to show everyone a 'real simple' way to figure the 'track' the CB is going to follow after contacting the 1 ball!

Let me say one 'important' thing here. "A 'Half-ball' hit is NOT going to work to achieve the desired results on this shot, for several reasons!
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,278


Bill, what about playing the shot like a billiard shot. Meaning bank the 1 ball 2 rails as suggested but instead of having the cue ball take the suggested path why not put left english on it and play the cue ball side rail, side rail, end rail, side rail and back down table on your side. That way there is no chance of catching a kiss or leaving a cross corner bank


Yes, I agree that you stay away from the kiss shooting it in that fashion but you will often leave a two rail or a straight back return. I posted a similar shot hitting it with a much softer speed and was getting great results. The OB was consistently going toward the pocket with the speed to just get there, taking away any return shot a high % of the time.

Dr. Bill
 

Mkbtank

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
5,280
Now What would you do.

Mitch; Lets see if others have a thought on this, and then I reveal what I feel is a viable solution! I Think everyone will be a little surprised!

Lol. This isn't my solution. Only the answer to "how to beat the kiss" shooting the way you laid out.

My solution/thought is what Rob said. 2 rail with inside holding the cue uptable :)
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,278
If you do that my reply would be: pocket the 5; and leave you
A. Stuck inside the pocket
B. froze on the end joint
C. Froze to or stuck behind the one ball
Yep, some times you gotta clean shot at your hole for the win! Wanna take it???
As I see it, that response puts both balls back into play, maybe not in the next 2 innings, but to soon to suit me.
I would go for bstrouds choice if there wasn't a way to avoid the two railer kiss. Distance sometimes creates problems, and his shot creates distance and requires a deaf touch response in order to not leave a bank.
Jeff, I don't see how you're going to do that, the 1ball will be between the cue ball and the 5ball which would then preclude you from pocketing the 5ball with a direct hit. However, Strouds shot is a good shot, providing he can control both balls.

Dr. Bill
 

onepockethacker

Verified Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
3,385
Yes, I agree that you stay away from the kiss shooting it in that fashion but you will often leave a two rail or a straight back return. I posted a similar shot hitting it with a much softer speed and was getting great results. The OB was consistently going toward the pocket with the speed to just get there, taking away any return shot a high % of the time.

Dr. Bill
? The cue ball will end up up table by the right corner pocket. You cant leave a straight back maybe an up and down 2 railer
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,278
How many times out of 10 did you win the game and with center axis right spin, medium speed, where did whitey end up?
The cue ball came around table and ended up near the top rail, any where from an inch to 8" from the rail. With the inside spin the cue ball usually ended up 1-1/2 rails cross table, with the speed to send the OB to the pocket and not giving up a shot a high percentage of the time. What was so great about the shot was the direction the OB took..it consistently went toward the pocket and went in a few times. I must of shot the shot about 10 times and made it two times, the other times it landed very close to the pocket.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,278
? The cue ball will end up up table by the right corner pocket. You cant leave a straight back maybe an up and down 2 railer
I understand what your saying but hitting the shot with the hard speed with extreme inside is hard to pin point where the cue ball will end up and the OB. I shot your shot while trying different shots with varying speeds and determined that your shot was a good shot but a little risky with leaving return shots. Try shooting the shot with a much softer speed so the OB just reaches the pocket.

Dr. Bill
 

onepockethacker

Verified Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
3,385
I understand what your saying but hitting the shot with the hard speed with extreme inside is hard to pin point where the cue ball will end up and the OB. I shot your shot while trying different shots with varying speeds and determined that your shot was a good shot but a little risky with leaving return shots. Try shooting the shot with a much softer speed so the OB just reaches the pocket.

Dr. Bill
? I am playing the 0bject ball to just reach the pocket. Im playing the cue ball 4 to 5 rails (like that intentional foul you wanted to take in the Appleton/Compton WWYD) Can someone diagram my shot please?
 

Jeff sparks

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
2,928
Jeff, I don't see how you're going to do that, the 1ball will be between the cue ball and the 5ball which would then preclude you from pocketing the 5ball with a direct hit. However, Strouds shot is a good shot, providing he can control both balls.

Dr. Bill
I shoot the one into the five after I've seen the position of the balls left by the response of "put the one as close to the five as I can and leave the CB on the long rail" I use the appropriate speed to accomplish as I said before;
A,B. Or C
But it's all moot anyway, right, the two railer is the best shot, right?
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
14,676
? I am playing the 0bject ball to just reach the pocket. Im playing the cue ball 4 to 5 rails (like that intentional foul you wanted to take in the Appleton/Compton WWYD) Can someone diagram my shot please?
is this it rob??
cue ball could go above the side picket but i think this is the gist of the shot with inside english
not implying scratching
yes???
hh1.jpg
 

Tom Wirth

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
2,573
Bill, When you shot the two railer with outside english, where did the cue ball hit the second rail and how close were you to a double kiss?

I played the same shot on my GCI and missed the kiss each time but it was so close that I felt a different approach would make for a sounder strategy.

I tried using inside english and did what I could to keep the cue ball as close to the head rail as possible but the best I could do there was to leave it near the middle of the table and about one diamond above the side pockets.

Having the distinct advantage in score, I decided a more conservative shot would be more appropriate in this case. I lean toward kicking the one ball to my side rail keeping it within a half diamond of the head rail. I don't see my opponent doing anything with the five from this position. My goal here is to prevent him from getting the five ball into play. If by some means he does get the five in play the one is now for the most part out of play for him. A trade off.

I like playing two rail shots on balls straddling the head rail and I'd like to feel comfortable playing it when the object ball get close to the far side rail but I can't help having misgivings about it.

Tom
 

Jeff sparks

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
2,928
Bill, When you shot the two railer with outside english, where did the cue ball hit the second rail and how close were you to a double kiss?

I played the same shot on my GCI and missed the kiss each time but it was so close that I felt a different approach would make for a sounder strategy.

I tried using inside english and did what I could to keep the cue ball as close to the head rail as possible but the best I could do there was to leave it near the middle of the table and about one diamond above the side pockets.

Having the distinct advantage in score, I decided a more conservative shot would be more appropriate in this case. I lean toward kicking the one ball to my side rail keeping it within a half diamond of the head rail. I don't see my opponent doing anything with the five from this position. My goal here is to prevent him from getting the five ball into play. If by some means he does get the five in play the one is now for the most part out of play for him. A trade off.

I like playing two rail shots on balls straddling the head rail and I'd like to feel comfortable playing it when the object ball get close to the far side rail but I can't help having misgivings about it.

Tom
Tom,
I believe I'd come out of hibernation, an extended retirement of 40 or so years to play you some!!! We used to play two shot roll out back in the old days, nine ball that is, I knew this guy called Whoppy, he was a world class bumper pool player, top two or three in the country at the time, but playing nine ball he was ultra conservative!! I once saw him roll out on a spot shot!!! I gotta tell you Tom, you got him nudged! Lol, just kiddin you, hope you don't take it wrong. C'mon Tom, go for your hole here, live a little!!!
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
Ok, first of all, as I stated in my first reply, I would NOT play the 2 railer!

I'm going to show 2 ideas of playing the 2 railer and most importantly the CB!

The first diagram shows how to play the CB 'without' the kiss using the 'system!'

View attachment 11923

If you'll notice the diagram, I show the contact point on the 1 ball with the white circle. This is where the ,'starting point' is for the system, NOT the 1 ball itself! You'll notice the numbers on the short and left long cushions for a reference!

In order for the 1 ball to even get within a square diamond of your pocket you have to contact the CB 1/3 full, even at that it's still going to catch the long cushion before the pocket! The player should try to tend towards a little, shorter than normal follow-thru!

The CB lies at 90 on the short rail, if we're NOT going to get the kiss, the CB has to travel, 'short' of the second diamond of the opposite long rail. So we want to play for the 1st diamond the long rail by your pocket as the 3rd cushion. Because of the obtuse angle from the 1 ball to the 1st cushion, you DON"T need much English, (1 O'clock English) to get back to where you started. Thus, SP=90, - ARP=10, AMP=80. 90-10=80!

If one insists on playing to get back around the 5 ball, I suggest this method also!

I believe in diagram 2, this is a better version of the type of shot Billy and Rob have presented!

View attachment 11924

I know already, some are going to say, 'Hey, He's hitting the same amount of ball, but, with draw now, the CB should go longer!'

Well, if I used the 'same' stroke as in diagram1, it certainly would! This were the knowledge about 'Modern 3C' comes into play! The stroke used to create the angle in Diagram 2 is a combination of 2 standard stroke2 in 3C. A 'rapid & short' stroke combined. What this does is, 'The rapid element produces the speed we need have the OB and CB travel their respective distances!' 'The short or, (controlled jab) stroke is what creates the angle the CB takes off the 1st, 2nd and 3rd cushion!' The minimum 3:30 English will also help the CB find the correct path!
 
Last edited:

LSJohn

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
7,625

I shot the two rail shot with a softer speed using center axis inside spin, wow, the cue ball went straight across table hitting a diamond before the side pocket and then went half way cross table. The OB went consistently toward the pocket with the speed to just reach the pocket.:)

Dr. Bill


On my drive home this evening I was wondering whether I could kill the CB with 8 o'clock enough to stop it near the second diamond on my top long rail.

I just got home and tried it and it works! CB comes off the second rail 2-4 inches, which is good enough.
 
Top