More Than One Shot #2

[fred bentivegna]

Waste of breath, or what?

Waste of breath, or what?

Excerpt from one of my previous posts that garnered basically a zero response:

"...The trick to the shot, and this is directed at Doc, is to use a slower, smoother delivery with maximum right english (not masse!), and a very loose, no grab on the butt, follow thru. That helps the cue ball to go forward, rather than deflect whereby you would need a masse stroke. The execution is easy and the Ghost is nuts. Its a dandy thing to know. The stroke is the opposite of the stroke in Daly's Billiard Book, circa 1906, called, le cou sec (the dry stroke). That stroke provides the maximum deflection (or carom) off of the object ball."


Did I make that explanation too complicated? Am I just jerking myself off when I release what I consider pool "science" and solutions? I personally thought it was a pretty strong release of how to "beat" the execution of a difficult situation. Does everybody just think that I'm goofy and spouting silliness in my dotage, and you just dont want to hurt my feelings?

Has anybody tried what I said on a pool table? Just remember, I have no real need to give out these helpful hints. I, fortunately, already know "em.

Beard

On the other hand, maybe I am an anachronistic relic, and I was just spouting common knowledge. If everyone already knew all that I was talking about, I respectfully withdraw all of the above.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Excerpt from one of my previous posts that garnered basically a zero response:

"...The trick to the shot, and this is directed at Doc, is to use a slower, smoother delivery with maximum right english (not masse!), and a very loose, no grab on the butt, follow thru. That helps the cue ball to go forward, rather than deflect whereby you would need a masse stroke. The execution is easy and the Ghost is nuts. Its a dandy thing to know. The stroke is the opposite of the stroke in Daly's Billiard Book, circa 1906, called, le cou sec (the dry stroke). That stroke provides the maximum deflection (or carom) off of the object ball."


Did I make that explanation too complicated? Am I just jerking myself off when I release what I consider pool "science" and solutions? I personally thought it was a pretty strong release of how to "beat" the execution of a difficult situation. Does everybody just think that I'm goofy and spouting silliness in my dotage, and you just dont want to hurt my feelings?

Has anybody tried what I said on a pool table? Just remember, I have no real need to give out these helpful hints. I, fortunately, already know "em.

Beard

On the other hand, maybe I am an anachronistic relic, and I was just spouting common knowledge. If everyone already knew all that I was talking about, I respectfully withdraw all of the above.

Freddy,

I shot this last night(see post #56) and your description of how to hit it is spot on. The Duck even agrees it's the right shot . I simply don't understand people's unwillingness to shoot this shot but I'm glad they don't, it leaves it for me.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Clarification needed !

Clarification needed !

Freddy,

I shot this last night(see post #56) and your description of how to hit it is spot on. The Duck even agrees it's the right shot . I simply don't understand people's unwillingness to shoot this shot but I'm glad they don't, it leaves it for me.

Dennis

Yes RBL, I did agree it was the correct shot, but only if you know how to juice whitey properly...Apparently the Beard does, Ghosty...not too sure...
Also, to belatedly answer lll's post #4...The risk/reward on that shot, is at least 3 or 4 to 1,... in favor of reward, but only if you are comfortable with it. It is NOT a good shot for a "B" player, or below, but guy's like Rod or Senor, should jump all over it... (note; "knock")

If you are stalling for a wager Jasper...heres one for you. I will shoot the 2 railer from that spot 10 times, and will make a fairly good hit on it almost every time. But I will NEVER come even close to scratching cross side with the cue ball. I can "easily" load it up with enough juice, to hit midway between the side and the upper corner pocket, every time. In fact, with an optimum hit...I may come closer to scratching in the upper corner, than the side....Also the duece will wind up in the quadrant by my hole almost every time, with shape on the nine. (which I would then probably miss by a foot)

All this, from a Yukon Jack-oholic,... with badly shot nerves, and very little (if any) stroke left. Thats how hard I think THAT shot is. I was playing it, (successfully, I might add) in high school. Similar shots come up a LOT in "Golf" on a snooker table. Thus the neccessity to learn it well, came early for me.

I know a guy like Artie ain't ever gonna shoot at it, even with a gun to his head.... But you Ghosty, are in your prime...you just need to get out more...

 

[SJDinPHX]

Au contraire - more likely I'd be collecting the cash.........that said...

You think this is such a lovely angle for the 2-railer do you?.....many a time I've seen guys scratch cross-side from this angle, because they thought they would load it up enough to get the cueball to the other side of the side pocket - but they didn't get there.....tell you what...

Since I've always backed up my shot choice opinions on here by being willing to play them out on an actual table...I'll be more than happy to play anybody my speed (or you yourself ) some one ball one pocket from here for a few shekels > I spot them the first shot - and they shoot this 2-railer that you think so highly of, as the opening shot.....do I have action?...
- Ghosty


[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4BALY4PWjH@[/CUETABLE]

Nice try Jasper...You have radically changed the game... Leave the 9 on the table, we both need TWO...and you've got action.

I MAY not shoot it (the 2-railer) myself, if we both needed one...depends on how froggy (or in stroke) I feel... Also whether I was playing for $40, or $400....

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Yes RBL, I did agree it was the correct shot, but only if you know how to juice whitey properly...Apparently the Beard does, Ghosty...not too sure.


I will shoot the 2 railer from that spot 10 times, and will make a fairly good hit on it almost every time.



I know a guy like Artie ain't ever gonna shoot at it, even with a gun to his head.... But you Ghosty, are in your prime...you just need to get out more...

Ug, what a gag-inducing scene I am presented with this morning after just waking up: Freddy, Dennis, and the Beard all in bed together....probably giving eachother back rubs, foot rubs, and God knows what else......


And as to the right shot choice..after many practice tries - you say you hit the 2-railer "fairly good - almost every time" gee, that's a great recommendation for choosing a shot....in a serious game Papie, on a real table, when you just get one shot at it - not 10 or 20 tries to get a feel for it....your very knowlegable/experienced buddy John, even though he likes to shoot at his hole, agrees with me - and I think he, "knows how to juice whitey properly"...why don't you go tell him he's wrong?... >>>

- Professor Ghost

For serious dough I'm shooting a safety. Probably like Ghost's shot.

 

[Dudley]

Dudley,

Did you read post #56? I shot this shot last night and put the cueball where I needed it every time and once, when I pocketed the 2 ball I put the cueball near the first diamond. That was probably divine intervention as I had not played in two months and can't see what I'm doing anyway, but the fact remains it's not that bad of a shot.

P.S. I shot it on a Gold Crown using a red circle cueball which, to me, feels a little heavier than the object balls.

Dennis

Dennis,
I'm not saying it can't be done, it just looks crazy on the wei.

I will try this shot at the hall. --> ball on the spot cue ball half a diamond from the side rail and the end rail. two rail the the object ball and juice the cue ball past the side.

Beard, I will try your shared science also to see if it helps with the execution....

Dud

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dennis,
I'm not saying it can't be done, it just looks crazy on the wei.

I will try this shot at the hall. --> ball on the spot cue ball half a diamond from the side rail and the end rail. two rail the the object ball and juice the cue ball past the side.

Dud

Dudley,

Unless your stroke is as weak as the Ghost's...you will find it is not that hard to execute, with the desired result...

PS..Ghosty, John is just trying to humor you into a bet of SOME kind...you are so gullible and flighty, its tough to pin you down.

If you remember, I tried the "practice shot, get in the grove" disclaimer on you first. I am saying, I will shoot the shot, and wait a half hour (maybe have a drink) and then let you determine my success ratio...and I WILL also shoot it, stone cold.... in a hi $$$ game situation...with NO practice.

 

[t-dog]

The Derby

The Derby

This shot does not get hit 80 mph. With your prop bet are you saying that I will shoot the two-railer to start and I need two balls, and the next game you will start by not shooting the two-railer(or any other offensive shot) and you need two balls? Be careful with your answer, I know what street Chicago is on .

Dennis

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AWTP4BAsY3CTBP3DQHP3ENNQ4FVmL4GSsK4HQPL1IYaM3JGcO4KNNL4LDJO3MKLP4NAPN3ODJN4PWCB3QcQp4VAsY2Vaiu2VQni4VVSy4kWCB4kBql3kagy1kVhv2uCUP@[/CUETABLE]

I was walking around at the Derby 4 years ago and I see Efren, Harry P and Parica standing around a table and Harry is telling Efren to shot the same shot as above except the cue was deep in the corner. Efren two strokes it, fires it two rails in the corner, first shot. Harry's, like no no no, not like that, and he proceeds to fire in the one railer which I had never seen before. That really opened my eyes to how thin a ball can be cut. To this day it was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen. Two shots, both struck perfectly and they acted like they were just messing around.

 

[androd]

Did I make that explanation too complicated? Am I just jerking myself off when I release what I consider pool "science" and solutions? I personally thought it was a pretty strong release of how to "beat" the execution of a difficult situation. Does everybody just think that I'm goofy and spouting silliness in my dotage, and you just dont want to hurt my feelings?

Has anybody tried what I said on a pool table? Just remember, I have no real need to give out these helpful hints. I, fortunately, already know "em.

Beard

On the other hand, maybe I am an anachronistic relic, and I was just spouting common knowledge. If everyone already knew all that I was talking about, I respectfully withdraw all of the above.

Freddy, I hold the stick that loose on every shot, so it didn't seem like a big revelation to me. Am I supposed to hold it tighter the rest of the time ?
Rod.
PS,They're a few banks I tighten up on.

 

[Dudley]

Dudley,

Unless your stroke is as weak as the Ghost's...you will find it is not that hard to execute, with the desired result...

PS..Ghosty, John is just trying to humor you into a bet of SOME kind...you are so gullible and flighty, its tough to pin you down.

If you remember, I tried the "practice shot, get in the grove" disclaimer on you first. I am saying, I will shoot the shot, and wait a half hour (maybe have a drink) and then let you determine my success ratio...and I WILL also shoot it, stone cold.... in a hi $$$ game situation...with NO practice.

I will try it out and see if I have a wimpy stroke.... I think it looked impossible because of how it was drawn on the wei--> with the cue ball going directly through the object ball. (this is not possible as far as i know)

I will go get some real world experience with this shot and post back my results.

Dud

 

[wincardona]

Conditions are crucial

Conditions are crucial

John, the one railer on the two is a risky shot, possibly leaving a return shot on the 2 ball if missed. The two railer on the 2 ball is a much better shot PROVIDING you can controll the direction and speed of the cue ball. The emphasis should be placed on the speed of the cue ball. If this shot is executed with good speed on the cue ball you may snooker your opponent on the 2 ball and increase your chances of winning. By executing good speed with the cue ball you take away all banks on the 9 ball, unless you butcher the shot.

On some tables this shot plays better then on other tables. This also should be taken into consideration when choosing your options.
The one railer on the 9 ball is suicidal and imo not an option. Playing the 2 ball two rails toward the 9 ball and repositioning the cue ball on or near the bottom cushion is always a good shot. Possibly my choice on certain tables.

On some tables this shot plays better then on other tables. This also should be taken into consideration when choosing your options.



The one railer on the 9 ball is suicidal and imo not an option. Playing the 2 ball two rails toward the 9 ball and repositioning the cue ball on or near the bottom cushion is always a good shot. Possibly my choice on certain tables.[/QUOTE]

There's no question that the two railer is a game winner on SOME tables, whether needing one or two balls, but the key to this shot is the speed in which it's hit. The safety that The Ghost suggest is a good shot on any table, but not the better shot on the tables that the two railer is executed comfortably. Especially needing both balls.

For those who have noticed that the two railer doesn't play comfortably on the Diamond tables are correct, so when it's offered on the Diamond table play the safety. But on the other hand when this shot comes up on a table where it can be executed comfortably (providing you're comfortable with the shot) like The Ghost said " if I'm walking along and there's some $$$ laying down there on the sidewalk in front of me, I've got to pick it up"

 

[fred bentivegna]

Loose is part one

Loose is part one

Freddy, I hold the stick that loose on every shot, so it didn't seem like a big revelation to me. Am I supposed to hold it tighter the rest of the time ?
Rod.
PS,They're a few banks I tighten up on.

Was that a sarcastic funny, or a cry for help? It's tight or loose, mainly loose, depending on what you need to do.
There were 3 parts to the instruction. Loose, dont grab (or squeeze) the butt at the end of the delivery with the butt hand (the hand just glides thru), and slow and smooth.
There are plenty of players that use one stroke, one speed, one grab, etc., and some even play better than me, but they cant make the trick shots that I can.

Beard

I might not be able to play anymore, but put me in close and I can still make all of the trick shots.

The butt squeeze is a double edged sword. No squeeze, and go thru the object ball, squeeze, and you can get maximum deflection off of the O.B.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Explain please

Explain please

I shot my prop shot, back cutting the ball one rail off the spot and trying to hide the cue ball behind the 9 ten times and here are the results on a Gold Crown 4 with new cloth and 4" pockets.

Made it once, hit it too thick and too hard once and sold out

Hid the cue behind the 9 and got the bank on the long rail on my side twice

When I didn't hide the cue ball, I still had two balls on my side of the table without leaving a good shot. Fairly easy safety for my opponent but I still feel more comfortable with this shot than the two railer.

For serious dough I'm shooting a safety. Probably like Ghost's shot.

I have to admit, I dont have a clue as to how to execute the 1 rail cross corner you are talking about. Especially when you talk about making it. Please diagram the steps and paths, start to finish. Maybe I can learn something.

Beard

 

[jrhendy]

I have to admit, I dont have a clue as to how to execute the 1 rail cross corner you are talking about. Especially when you talk about making it. Please diagram the steps and paths, start to finish. Maybe I can learn something.

Beard

Perhaps it comes from my old snooker/golf days, but I feel very comfortable hitting the back side of the object ball with extreme low right hand english for this shot.

When I made the shot the cue ball went three rails and ended up near the spot. To hide the cue ball behind the 9 the obect ball is usually between the first and second diamond.

It works for me and I'll bet on it against the two railer (But not too much).

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

On some tables this shot plays better then on other tables. This also should be taken into consideration when choosing your options.

The one railer on the 9 ball is suicidal and imo not an option. Playing the 2 ball two rails toward the 9 ball and repositioning the cue ball on or near the bottom cushion is always a good shot. Possibly my choice on certain tables.

There's no question that the two railer is a game winner on SOME tables, whether needing one or two balls, but the key to this shot is the speed in which it's hit. The safety that The Ghost suggest is a good shot on any table, but not the better shot on the tables that the two railer is executed comfortably. Especially needing both balls.

For those who have noticed that the two railer doesn't play comfortably on the Diamond tables are correct, so when it's offered on the Diamond table play the safety. But on the other hand when this shot comes up on a table where it can be executed comfortably (providing you're comfortable with the shot) like The Ghost said " if I'm walking along and there's some $$$ laying down there on the sidewalk in front of me, I've got to pick it up"

I'll capitulate somewhat on the option of shooting the 2-railer, and go along with what Billy says here, as far as...

It could be a reasonable shot choice depending on how strong the shooter plays, how much he likes and is familiar with this 2-rail angle, and the table type/conditions - i.e. we didn't talk about a humid/wet table by the way - no way are you going to be getting that 2-railer long enough on a wet, short playing table.

- Ghost

PS, But I don't think Papie should be shooting a shot this difficult any longer - I think he should just stay in bunting-balls-mode from here on out......

 

[gulfportdoc]

Excerpt from one of my previous posts that garnered basically a zero response:

"...The trick to the shot, and this is directed at Doc, is to use a slower, smoother delivery with maximum right english (not masse!), and a very loose, no grab on the butt, follow thru. That helps the cue ball to go forward, rather than deflect whereby you would need a masse stroke. The execution is easy and the Ghost is nuts. Its a dandy thing to know. The stroke is the opposite of the stroke in Daly's Billiard Book, circa 1906, called, le cou sec (the dry stroke). That stroke provides the maximum deflection (or carom) off of the object ball."


Did I make that explanation too complicated? Am I just jerking myself off when I release what I consider pool "science" and solutions? I personally thought it was a pretty strong release of how to "beat" the execution of a difficult situation. Does everybody just think that I'm goofy and spouting silliness in my dotage, and you just dont want to hurt my feelings?

Has anybody tried what I said on a pool table? Just remember, I have no real need to give out these helpful hints. I, fortunately, already know "em.

Beard

On the other hand, maybe I am an anachronistic relic, and I was just spouting common knowledge. If everyone already knew all that I was talking about, I respectfully withdraw all of the above.

Beard, even though you may be an "anachronistic relic", you're correct about how easy it is to get the CB above the 9-ball with normal right spin with a smooth medium stroke. My earlier post is another example of incorrect perspective viewing the Wei Table. I went to the poolroom today to try out the shot, and it was real easy. Although this may sound Figueroistic, it didn't matter whether the cuestick was gripped loosely or tightly.

The shot going "long" was mentioned. On the Diamond I used the shot went wider than it should in order to make it. But I believe that to be because the OB actually went short off the first rail, causing it to contact the second rail further over than required to make it. It's hard to imagine many circumstances where a Diamond would roll long in comparison to a traditional Gold Crown.

Doc

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Between Dennis #2 and Ace #3 I probably would of shot #3...Dennis's boldness has its appeal..BUT..if I miss and leave it on the short rail then there is a could chance Rod is bankin his game ball.

Mark,

If you miss and leave it on the short rail there is a good chance that Rod is banking his game ball BUT not before you've taken a solid, good, low risk shot at winning the game yourself.

There is a time for daring and a time for caution, only you can determine which is called for here.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I'll capitulate somewhat on the option of shooting the 2-railer

That's the sound of a Ghost, backtracking .

 

[fred bentivegna]

Im still lost

Im still lost

Perhaps it comes from my old snooker/golf days, but I feel very comfortable hitting the back side of the object ball with extreme low right hand english for this shot.

When I made the shot the cue ball went three rails and ended up near the spot. To hide the cue ball behind the 9 the obect ball is usually between the first and second diamond.

It works for me and I'll bet on it against the two railer (But not too much).

What the f@@k shot are you talking about? Diagram and explain it please! Are you talking straight back or cross corner? Are you cutting it or throwing it? Killing the cue ball? Does anybody else understand what he is saying?


Beard

 

[fred bentivegna]

What you do before the stroke...

What you do before the stroke...

Beard, even though you may be an "anachronistic relic", you're correct about how easy it is to get the CB above the 9-ball with normal right spin with a smooth medium stroke. My earlier post is another example of incorrect perspective viewing the Wei Table. I went to the poolroom today to try out the shot, and it was real easy. Although this may sound Figueroistic, it didn't matter whether the cuestick was gripped loosely or tightly.

The shot going "long" was mentioned. On the Diamond I used the shot went wider than it should in order to make it. But I believe that to be because the OB actually went short off the first rail, causing it to contact the second rail further over than required to make it. It's hard to imagine many circumstances where a Diamond would roll long in comparison to a traditional Gold Crown.

Doc

... doesnt much matter. Its what happens during the delivery. You can start loose and get tight and start tight and get loose. I gave you a way to help insure getting the correct action. However, the most important thing to do is to not grab the butt with a stop like stroke, but instead go thru smoothly. Maurice Daly wrote about this 100 years ago. I will not lose a minutes sleep if no one chooses to take advantage of my offering.

Beard