More Chicago stuff

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Freddy you are losing it I would never stake you at pool. And I didnt bet on you playing pool.I would bet on they other player. And if you played another gameoutside of pool I would bet on you And I never lost. But I never bet on you playing pool. And when you played Grady in Milwakie 8to 5 or 8 to 6 I dont no who one. And thats when I played Mike Massey we both played one handed eight ball. And I one. And that was when I was going to play Ronnie 11 to 8 and he gets all they breacks. And we both loved they game. And Phil was my backer. And I told you what happened and you changed everything. THey truth is that Ronnie couldnt get a backer to play. And thats all it was. And I would have won. And bugs said Ronnie would have quite and through they stick in because he would not have stood up for that kind of torture. And Ronnie had no clue what he was getting into. And I would have broke him down. And I never lost playing you pool excepte in Tennessee. And you never won when I played you 8 to 6. And then you told me you were going to play me even because you didnt want me to have any cicologicale edge. And bugs asked me how me and you played and I said even and he didnt belive it. And I told bugs go and ask Freddy. And Freddy wanted his spot back and I said no I dont want to have a cicologecale edge on you.And me and Freddy played 8 to 6 banks and we broke even. But Freddy couldnt win at that game.Just like Bugs gave me 9 to 5 playing banks and he couldnt win eitheir. And Freddy couldnt beat me playing any pool game or 3 cushion billiard game but banks. And Freddys wife Carol came down to Bensingers and begged me not to play Freddy any more because she couldnt aford to give him any more money. But I new Freddy would keep playng. Freddy is a Ego maineack. And Freddy you have to learn to wright they truth. I no you are famous and you have a following and you are in they bank pool hall os fame. But sometimes its better to be humble then to get carried away. And FReddy you havent been in dead stroke for 50 years. You have been in cagneto. And I no you have to defend your turf. But when you take a side against a friend then you call that being a trader. But I give you a breack because of bunny. And he said what else does he have. If I was a judge whos word would I take they person that was their playing. or fredy who was their for a houer and left. And you keep traping yourself Freddy because you keep changing your story. I dont change my story and I dont care who belives it or not. But it makes me feel good wrighting they truth. Just Like my case with they GOverment. All they did was lie and assume . And they had they wrong information. And I will tell them to their face they are liers. And I wish I could get another chance to fight my case . But that wont happen. And my creepy layer lied too. And when I play pool I dont go into gear tell they big money is up. Because nobody will play. Since your memory is so good Freddy Howe much did you bet on me playing Grady. And how long were you betting. Maybe you one because you said I was 3 games ahead. And maybe you left a winner. Do you remember what you did. Or do you only remember what I did. And how long did you watch us. And Freddy didnt want to write they truth about how many times I beat Bugs. Because Bugs and Taylor were his Bank pool heros and they two best bankers in life. And Freddy is a bank pool Fanatick. Its tough playing bank pool for a living. Maybe you can play some banks for some time. And you can live a lot longer. And if you play for time you mite never miss a ball. I dont need anyone standing up for me. I no who I am and what I did. I can still look at myself in they mirror. You are a nice guy Freddy. But you need to control your insanitie. And I am very sorry If I speel bad but thats why I wont bet on my spelling. And they other posts were not written by me . BUt I posted twice today. I hope you dont have no night mares. And remember I sold my soul to they Devile.

 

[Fatboy]

wow this is getting rich....(i'm not picking sides, nor will I, its just interesting as I have heard about this stuff for years, i want to see it play out...)

 

[hemicudas]

Interesting For Sure

Interesting For Sure

Super interesting thread for sure. Thought you guys might like to see a recent photo of the legendary TR McIntosh. If you look close you might recognize 2-3 players that have over the years been in TR's stables. Photo was taken at TR's FL ranch.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I'm gonna stop now

I'm gonna stop now

Even tho I can certainly respond viciously to that vain, arrogant post by my idiot friend, I'm gonna stop it here. Those who know me, know that I have files on everybody, just like J. Edgar Hoover. But I'm gonna contain myself, as San Jose Dick suggested, and not get personal, even tho my old pal seemed to have no problem with that. I'm comfortable enough with my life just to know that even tho I am basically a broke, I am welcome to bring my broke ass to many, many, friends I have accumulated all over the country, from East to West to South. In my time I've had 3 friends who were dying, that came to live with me to do it. That's ultimate acknowledgement to me. That counts more than robbing suckers. I can look in the mirror too. Nuff said.

the Beard

 

[usblues]

amen

amen

Getting closer to the end rather than the beginning everyone knows it's people first,bread second.Your a good man Freddie,keep on keepin on,Bob

 

[Grady]

Thanks again, Freddie

Thanks again, Freddie

You said pretty much what I wanted to. It's time for this to end. I've always been proud of my work and record, low paying as it has been. I cannot fight ghosts. I thought my remarks were not to find out whether Freddie got staked or who "lemoned" a sucker to take off a score but simply how I fared in and around Chicago. I never ever said I was as smart as Artie or Jack or the best player in the world.
I thought I was the best One Pocket player in the world during all of the eighties. I certainly didn't duck anybody and I played and won in some real cesspools of joints. The funny thing is that I didn't do any phase of One Pocket better than other champs but I thought my entire package as a OP player could and would defeat any style of game in my era.
As I said before, Ronnie and Bugs were my toughest opponents. At least they'd get up and play.That's all I have to say.

 

[vapros]

Hold on a minute . . .

Hold on a minute . . .

Grady says it's time for this to end, and I will go along with that. The long-ago match between him and Artie Bodendorfer has been discussed and disagreed upon long enough, and we should move along.

However, we are left with a genuine mystery man - a sort of Howard Hughes. Many of us (me, for example) had seldom heard of Artie B at all, and then only in passing. My impression was that he was a very fine player, highly regarded by Chicago players, but pretty much unknown outside of that town. We are told that he seldom left the friendly confines, that he loved to play the top players, and that he quit the game to move to Vegas, where there was more money.

Finally, the man speaks up in this thread (this was the right guy, wasn't it?) to sound off about several things and to say he was never a player at all, but rather a hustler. He avoided the name players so as to continue unnoticed, and went on the road and got all the suckers' money by making good games for himself. He implies that he was also a backer of similar games and always picked winners.
He says he controlled the 'action' and had the police and the FBI after him. He sounded a bit like the legendary 'Fats' with all his outrageous claims.

Now, I don't want to read the guy's diary and I don't care if he wears boxers or briefs, but where does Artie B fit in the annals of pool? Before we put him back into the mothballs, I'd like to hear a few more opinions. Who else will speak up to add to what we have learned this week?

 

[Deeman]

Grady says it's time for this to end, and I will go along with that. The long-ago match between him and Artie Bodendorfer has been discussed and disagreed upon long enough, and we should move along.

However, we are left with a genuine mystery man - a sort of Howard Hughes. Many of us (me, for example) had seldom heard of Artie B at all, and then only in passing. My impression was that he was a very fine player, highly regarded by Chicago players, but pretty much unknown outside of that town. We are told that he seldom left the friendly confines, that he loved to play the top players, and that he quit the game to move to Vegas, where there was more money.

Finally, the man speaks up in this thread (this was the right guy, wasn't it?) to sound off about several things and to say he was never a player at all, but rather a hustler. He avoided the name players so as to continue unnoticed, and went on the road and got all the suckers' money by making good games for himself. He implies that he was also a backer of similar games and always picked winners.
He says he controlled the 'action' and had the police and the FBI after him. He sounded a bit like the legendary 'Fats' with all his outrageous claims.

Now, I don't want to read the guy's diary and I don't care if he wears boxers or briefs, but where does Artie B fit in the annals of pool? Before we put him back into the mothballs, I'd like to hear a few more opinions. Who else will speak up to add to what we have learned this week?

Vapros,

His claims of having the Feds after him is well known and documented along with his claim of making millions in Vegas. He is much better known than you would think and was among the best one pocket players ever, at least in Chicago circles and that pretty much made up a lot that world in those days. All three Grady, Freddie and Artie are among the elite of pool, with Freddie in Banks, Grady, of course, one of the finest one pocket minds of all time and Artie reputed to be the hardest game anyone would ever want to have. I've seen Grady more than any, over many years, and not many wanted much of him in the 1980's. I don't know as much about Artie but stories about him have been around for 40+ years. It is a shame there is hostility now but it is nice to at least hear from Artie, who, honestly, I didn't even know was still around until Derby City.

Hell, I can't remember my wife's birthday. It is not strage that they might have a little different take on thngs fomr all those years ago.

To your question, he was considered impossible to beat even up in Chicago for a long time. If anyone, back then, could manage him it would have bene Grady or R/A. IMHO

 

[gulfportdoc]

Super interesting thread for sure. Thought you guys might like to see a recent photo of the legendary TR McIntosh. If you look close you might recognize 2-3 players that have over the years been in TR's stables. Photo was taken at TR's FL ranch.

Hemi, you teaser, you. I'll bite. Who are the other guys in the picture? Buddy of course, but I'm having trouble recognizing some of the others.

Thanks~ Doc

 

[philip guagliardo]

Grady says it's time for this to end, and I will go along with that. The long-ago match between him and Artie Bodendorfer has been discussed and disagreed upon long enough, and we should move along.

However, we are left with a genuine mystery man - a sort of Howard Hughes. Many of us (me, for example) had seldom heard of Artie B at all, and then only in passing. My impression was that he was a very fine player, highly regarded by Chicago players, but pretty much unknown outside of that town. We are told that he seldom left the friendly confines, that he loved to play the top players, and that he quit the game to move to Vegas, where there was more money.

Finally, the man speaks up in this thread (this was the right guy, wasn't it?) to sound off about several things and to say he was never a player at all, but rather a hustler. He avoided the name players so as to continue unnoticed, and went on the road and got all the suckers' money by making good games for himself. He implies that he was also a backer of similar games and always picked winners.
He says he controlled the 'action' and had the police and the FBI after him. He sounded a bit like the legendary 'Fats' with all his outrageous claims.

Now, I don't want to read the guy's diary and I don't care if he wears boxers or briefs, but where does Artie B fit in the annals of pool? Before we put him back into the mothballs, I'd like to hear a few more opinions. Who else will speak up to add to what we have learned this week?

Vapros , I think that I know Artie just as good as anyone on earth and who he beat and how he beat them because I was there most of the time . Artie loved to beat suckers because he liked to keep a low profile in his early years ! The suckers came to him mostly , but he did go to other Chicago rooms to hustle . Freddy can verify that Artie also loved playing good players also even though it was tougher action . When he wasn't at the top of his game he played Jersey Red and gave Red the break and he got 10-8 and in the end Artie won , in actuality he might have been spotting Red . Freddy and I were at the Palmer House where the straight pool tournament was held and we asked Red to come and play Artie and Red said he wants a spot and Freddy said no red he'll play even . Red never showed !!! He made Boston Shorty look like he never played pool in another match that the newspapers were following . The list of top players is too long to write ! When mine and freddy's North shore biliards was going strong , many top players just sat on the bench and avoided Artie . Allen Hopkins at the top of his game refused to play . Nick Varner a real courageous player got a big time lesson as did Clyde Childress and there was always the great Bugs who lost numerous times giving Artie 9-8 thru the years . I think Bugs gave him 9-8 out of pride cause he never tried to adjust and lost and lost . They were both the greatest players ever in Chicago and the west coast and everywhere else will say Ronnie Allen another champion , but let me tell you Ronnie visited Chicago a couple times that I know of and he didn't come looking for either and I'm not saying the outcome , but Iam saying that I wonder Why ? In parting Bugs told me personally that he couldn't beat Artie because he just never gives anything up . I will sum this up by saying Freddy and Artie have been lifelong friends of mine and I hope this arguement ends , and am I Chicago biased !! Yes but I also tell the truth about what I have seen in the last fourty years . I hope that this topic is over and everybody understands that its only a game and some of us are getting older and still like talking about the great players . Life is too short !!





Phil

 

[jay helfert]

Looks like I got here just in time. I vaguely remember some sucker coming into Tropicana and betting high, getting big weight and winning. That could have been Artie, I really don't know. All I remember is that everyone thought the guy was a rich sucker. But he won all the cash. If that was Artie I give him credit for fooling everyone.

I never really got to see Artie play. When I was around Chicago a time or two, we stayed around the Billiard Cafe and one other spot upstairs. I played a little with George Michaels and Joey Gold and big Wayne, Freddie's backer. Freddie was busy playing Banks with Danny Medina for 500 a pop. So he wasn't a cheap date either.

As far as who was the best player, that remains to be seen. I think Ronnie was smart enough to know where "not" to play. I have a feeling if Artie would have been willing to play Ronnie on a neutral court, he would have got all the action he wanted. Of course, like Artie says, he wanted an edge. And playing Ronnie elsewhere wasn't it.

I did see Ronnie play a lot of One Pocket in the 60's, 70's and 80's, and I didn't see anyone who I thought was a better player. And I mean ANYONE! Artie can talk all he wants about his "squeezing" techniques and endurance, but Ronnie had some big weapons himself. NO ONE I ever saw could escape traps like Ronnie. He could turn the game completely around in one shot, which might have become discouraging for Artie. And Ronnie ran "eight and out" better than any living human too.

And he often did it from nowhere, when there wasn't even a shot in sight. He would start his run by kicking a ball in from off the end rail, and that was it. He was off and running, making two and three ball combos, kick shots out of the pack, banks off other balls and razor thin cuts. I saw it with my own eyes, watching Ronnie run "ten and out" (his usual spot was maybe 10-6) so many times his opponents got nose bleeds. I don't think Artie looked too hard for him either. For good reason. Artie wasn't a sucker, so why would he want to mess with the best One Pocket player in the world.

 

[fred bentivegna]

ten and out

ten and out

Looks like I got here just in time. I vaguely remember some sucker coming into Tropicana and betting high, getting big weight and winning. That could have been Artie, I really don't know. All I remember is that everyone thought the guy was a rich sucker. But he won all the cash. If that was Artie I give him credit for fooling everyone.

I never really got to see Artie play. When I was around Chicago a time or two, we stayed around the Billiard Cafe and one other spot upstairs. I played a little with George Michaels and Joey Gold and big Wayne, Freddie's backer. Freddie was busy playing Banks with Danny Medina for 500 a pop. So he wasn't a cheap date either.

As far as who was the best player, that remains to be seen. I think Ronnie was smart enough to know where "not" to play. I have a feeling if Artie would have been willing to play Ronnie on a neutral court, he would have got all the action he wanted. Of course, like Artie says, he wanted an edge. And playing Ronnie elsewhere wasn't it.

I did see Ronnie play a lot of One Pocket in the 60's, 70's and 80's, and I didn't see anyone who I thought was a better player. And I mean ANYONE! Artie can talk all he wants about his "squeezing" techniques and endurance, but Ronnie had some big weapons himself. NO ONE I ever saw could escape traps like Ronnie. He could turn the game completely around in one shot, which might have become discouraging for Artie. And Ronnie ran "eight and out" better than any living human too.

And he often did it from nowhere, when there wasn't even a shot in sight. He would start his run by kicking a ball in from off the end rail, and that was it. He was off and running, making two and three ball combos, kick shots out of the pack, banks off other balls and razor thin cuts. I saw it with my own eyes, watching Ronnie run "ten and out" (his usual spot was maybe 10-6) so many times his opponents got nose bleeds. I don't think Artie looked too hard for him either. For good reason. Artie wasn't a sucker, so why would he want to mess with the best One Pocket player in the world.

A little sidenote: Years back I played Ronnie in Hot Springs ARK. I was playing pretty good and he was giving me 10 to 8. I had beat him in Chicago at the Billiard Cafe with the same game. This time however, the mixture was just right. He ran 10 and out 6 games in a row! One game he had taken a scratch so he had to run eleven. I didnt wait to see what would happen in the seventh game, I packed it in.

the Beard

Jay, if the guy you are talking about was with a fat guy, then that was Artie. I know he mentioned playing at the Tropicana.

 

[SJDinPHX]

A little sidenote: Years back I played Ronnie in Hot Springs ARK. I was playing pretty good and he was giving me 10 to 8. I had beat him in Chicago at the Billiard Cafe with the same game. This time however, the mixture was just right. He ran 10 and out 6 games in a row! One game he had taken a scratch so he had to run eleven. I didnt wait to see what would happen in the seventh game, I packed it in.

the Beard

Jay, if the guy you are talking about was with a fat guy, then that was Artie. I know he mentioned playing at the Tropicana.

Fred, you have finally given me a line on your game. (or what used to be your game) After I finally learned to play one pocket, Ronnie and I tangled at least fifty times, from the 60's to the late 90's. I rarely won getting 9/8, but he NEVER won giving me 8/7. In fact by the late 90's we were playing even, and breaking even. ( he was not aging too well) Thank God I took the 20 year hiatus ('72-'92) or else I probably would have been toast. Also remember, as Grady once said, when you play RA you are allready giving up a ball to the shark. Getting his cash required FULL TIME focus, earplugs, and blinders. He's still around, ask him about some of our wars. He was Hitler, I was Churchill, but we had fun. The last time we played, (I was 70 he was 65) he gave me 9/8 and shot me down. Thats when I hung it up for good. Ask him about the time we went to blows.
Two, out of shape pool player's, rolling around in the mud, the blood, and the beer. Then we went next door and had a drink.

Dick

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

When I played at Tropicana I spred with fat jerry sterling who was butter milk and this guy they barber who was one of they best suckers in tropicana. And I cleaned out they hole joint. And nobody new me and I never drew my cue ball. And Richie Florence was out of town in Las Vegas. And Richie had a lot of money and gamble and I would have beat him for a good score. Richie was a real gambler. And they were going to get me stuck up. And sterling was going to get some of his friends to stick up they stick up men. But I told him to forget about it.And I left town with fat Jerry. To SFsisco.And I won good money in SFsisco at they Palace. And I had to a chance to make one of they biggest scores ever in a pool room. They owner wanted to bet me one hundred thousand dollares a game on kazura playing my player Straight rail that I was Backing. And I had they best straight rail player in they world and thats all he could play and nobody new him. And he couldnt speak English. I made a good score but I didnt make they giant score that I should have. And it should have been one of they biggest scores in life. And we had they nuts. And they owner from they Palace new that nobody in America had a chance playing her straight rail. She would have robed any American 200 hundred to 50. And I seen my player play at fourth and Main in LA and he would play people 300 no count straight rail to their 8 three cushion billiards. And he never missed. And I ran into him by axcedent in SF and he couldnt speeck English. And I played Kashiekie three cushion billiards and he spoted me 10 billiards and they breack and he was they second best three cushion billiard player in they world. But I beat him pretty good. And I even played him we both shoot one handed three cushion billiards and he spoted me 5 points to 25 but he couldnt have one even . But I always hustled they people with money. And I was they best manager and sucker handler in life. With my carnivale education. If I would have waited and set they score up wright I would have one a fourtune. But I was scared that sombody would knock it. And AS far as Ronnie Allen goes I never played Ronnie. And they only time we were going to play was in millwakie. And Ronnie couldnt get a backer. We both loved they game. He was going to give me 11 to 8 and he gets all they breacks. And he would not have won. Nobody plays they style I play. And they best one pocket players in my time were Edie Taylor Bugs Ronnie Allen Jersey Red Corn bread Red Marven Henderson.And any of these players could have beat each other 3 out of 5. But none of these players could have beat me 6 games ahead. And Bugs And Ronnie played 3 times and Bugs won twice. And Taylor and Bugs played Banks twice and Bugs won once and Taylor won once . They played in Baltimore and in Philadelpia. And Bugs said I was they only guy he couldnt beat. And he said nobody could have beat me 6 games ahead. But 3 out of 5 he could have one. And I no how to squez playing one pocket. But that was not my game. I played chess one pocket. And nobody semes to be interested in that kind of game. But its ok with me. And I played one pocket chess with no mistakes. And I didnt play power one pocket with power moves and shooting or agressive one pocket or by instict thats what most player do. I played no mistake one pocket.And once I have my oponet in check mate I keep him in they trap. And never leaving my oponent out of they trap or a shot. And always keeping my oponent on defense were he couldnt shot at his pocket. Unless he wanted to shoot at a 4 to 1 shot and if he misses give up they game. And take way they worst of they shot. They best one pocket players in my time were Taylor Bugs and Ronnie. And today I would pick Efraen Scott Frost Cliff Parica and Gab Those are my picks. And every body knows Ronnie because of all they tournaments he played in. And if it wasant for they tournaments nobody would no who is who. And I am ARTHUR BODENDORFER. AND I APROVE THIS MESSAGE.And they best thing you can do if you realy want to become a champion player learn to play they game correctly and no what you are doing.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Hey Eric !

Hey Eric !

Fatboy, I think I've found sombody you can give 8 to 5 and the breaks,.....IN SPELLING ! (see last post,)



Dick

PS I'lll steake you, Pleese, dnot dog it !

 

[NH Steve]

Fatboy, I think I've found sombody you can give 8 to 5 and the breaks,.....IN SPELLING !


Dick

PS I'lll steak you, Pleese, dnot dog it !

Might be true, but it's interesting that both Fatboy and Artie have done exceptionally well in the pursuit of their goals -- including notable financial success. We all have our strengths, and weaknesses, don't get too carried away, guys...

Meanwhile, there is some awfully good advice here that should not be overlooked, which I edited slightly for reading ease:

I played chess one pocket. And nobody seems to be interested in that kind of game. But its ok with me. I played one pocket chess with no mistakes. I didn't play power one pocket with power moves and shooting, and I didn't play agressive one pocket or play by instinct. That's what most players do. I played no mistake one pocket, and once I had my opponent in checkmate, I kept him in the trap. I never let my opponent out of the trap for a shot, always keeping my opponent on defense where he couldn't shoot at his pocket. Unless he wanted to shoot at a 4 to 1 shot, where if he misses he gives up the game.

In otherwords, Artie played in the 'Clem' Metz style of One Pocket. It's good advice!

 

[Fast Lenny]

Hey Artie.Who do you think is the better player,Scott Frost or Cliff Joyner?

 

[SJDinPHX]

Might be true, but it's interesting that both Fatboy and Artie have done exceptionally well in the pursuit of their goals -- including notable financial success. We all have our strengths, and weaknesses, don't get too carried away, guys...

Meanwhile, there is some awfully good advice here that should not be overlooked, which I edited slightly for reading ease:



In otherwords, Artie played in the 'Clem' Metz style of One Pocket. It's good advice!

Steve, Do you actually think I'm not aware of their financial successes. I know for a fact Eric will get a kick out it ! I'm sorry you felt the need to chastise me, for trying to have a little fun. There's not a lot going around these days, you know. As for Arty's skill's,
laying traps may be more productive financially, but my heroes are still the gunslinger's who hit the highway, and would bet it up ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. And yes, from what I've heard, there were a LOT of similarities between Clem and Arty. JMHO.

Dick

 

[NH Steve]

Steve, Do you actually think I'm not aware of their financial successes. I know for a fact Eric will get a kick out it ! I'm sorry you felt the need to chastise me, for trying to have a little fun. There's not a lot going around these days. As for Arty's skill's,
laying traps may be more productive financially, but my heroes are still the gunslinger's who hit the highway, and would bet it up ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

Dick

It's good for everybody to remember that this is a pool forum, not a spelling forum, that's all. There are way too few of us as it is, we don't want anybody (that means anybody, certainly not just Artie) to feel like they better not post, because their spelling and grammar skills are not the equal to their pool skills. Guys like you (and Freddy) are the exceptions in terms of pool skills combined with writing skills. Oh, yeah, I have writing skills, but my pool skills are suspect

 

[SJDinPHX]

It's good for everybody to remember that this is a pool forum, not a spelling forum, that's all. There are way too few of us as it is, we don't want anybody (that means anybody, certainly not just Artie) to feel like they better not post, because their spelling and grammar skills are not the equal to their pool skills. Guys like you (and Freddy) are the exceptions in terms of pool skills combined with writing skills. Oh, yeah, I have writing skills, but my pool skills are suspect

POIRNT WEL TAKKEN. (I also posted it on AZB, in hopes of getting a few more warm bodie's over here.)

Dicke