More Chicago stuff

NH Steve

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Dick Mc Morran said:
POIRNT WEL TAKKEN. (I also posted it on AZB, in hopes of getting a few more warm bodie's over here.)

Dicke
Thank you for you're understanding...
 

gulfportdoc

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NH Steve said:
Guys like you (and Freddy) are the exceptions in terms of pool skills combined with writing skills.
Well, I think this means that --since I've been known to turn a phrase or two, and that my spelling is decent-- the administration understands that I'm a mediocre pool player. Booth, I'll be expecting the appropriate weight from you at the DCC!!:D:p

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Nobody's insulted him more than me

Nobody's insulted him more than me

Dick Mc Morran said:
Steve, Do you actually think I'm not aware of their financial successes. I know for a fact Eric will get a kick out it ! I'm sorry you felt the need to chastise me, for trying to have a little fun. There's not a lot going around these days, you know. :( As for Arty's skill's,
laying traps may be more productive financially, but my heroes are still the gunslinger's who hit the highway, and would bet it up ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. And yes, from what I've heard, there were a LOT of similarities between Clem and Arty. JMHO.

Dick
Forget about it Dick. Nobody has insulted Artie's lack of formal education more than me. He would call me a sucker and I would call him an idiot. When we were still pals, and before I became a "trader" to him for agreeing somewhat, with Gradys story, he leaked some of his onepocket secrets to me at his house in Vegas. He actually is the smartest 1pkt player in the world, and I aint no dope playing that game. Suffice to say, I aint telling anybody else. However, I am the smartest bank pool player in the world, and even Artie will agree to that.
Now, just to start some sh*t up again. Artie, I have talked to three more guys who were at North Shore when you played Grady. Sam Gibson, Grady Humphries, and Black Sylvester the Sweator. They dont remember much else, except that the match took at least two days -- not 5 hours. You probably wore out too much of your brain and your memory thinking about 1pkt.

the Beard
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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I did not play Clems style of one pocket.You people still dont understand real one pocket.And what you can do with they game. Nodody knows how to play real one pocket.And Scott Frost and Cliff Jointer are they greatest one pocket players and they have great personalities.And Efren is also great but he does not have they personality of Scott Frost and Cliff Jointer. And they all play they same style. Offense and running 8 and out. They are all very agresive players. Efrin is they best shooter and Cliff is they best banker. And If they played I dont no who would win. You would have to ask they players. Because they players no more than they fans and they public.I belive Frost will still be great when cliff and Efrin will be on their way out. And Cliff and Efrin have reached their potential.And they top of their shooting skill. And they can only improve more through knowledge. And they should have a round robin between Cliff Scott and Efren and people would love it before its to late and Efrin and Cliff quite playing. And have ESPN show it and make sure they pay they players a good peace of money. Because they desirve it. And they chinnese will pay good money for they CDS and DVD because they are champions at coping and perfection. And they world will have a great event and momonet. And when I hustled pool I was not a gunslinger. I was a bounty hunter.And pool hustling is about they money. Not about being a gunslinger like billy they kid. cLEM PLAYED GREAT ONE POCKET. BUT I do not play his style he played a defenseve and a safe style.Thats why when Graddy and Freddy said that I was 3 games ahead and in they 4 game I had grady 5 balls to nothing and Grady owed 3 balls. And he won they freez out 4 games ahead. Was all nonsense and never hapened. And if that hapened Grady would have never came back and won. Because I would have went into gear and he would have been all done. He could not have over come what he would have seen. And that is all a made up story. And we did play and my story does not change only they other sides story changes. And Grady would have been on defense tell they session would have been over. And he would have made way more mistakes then me. And I would have controled they game. Because he wouldnt have even known what I was doing. And I can prove it. And nobody would have knowen why I would have had grady locked up. And Grady was a great player.But to be honest about it Grady does not no what I am talking about. And Grady did everything good in pool. And if you want to get 3 or 5 judges we can have a contestand put up 10 thousand dollares and we have a half an houer to explain they session and let they judges decide who they belive.Thats a interesting gamble. And we can do it in Indiana at they Derby tournament. And Grady and Freddy can take half they bet. And I dont need no co signers to agree with me what hapened I was their and I played and I bet my own money. And on top of that Freddy was their only for a short time.How would he no what hapened. Unless he is like they FBI with his files and assuming or her say information. And FReddy was on another planet at that time. Clem played old style one pocket. And I played they correct style of one pocket. And someone can take that bet too. With 3 or 5 judges. And some of they judges I would pick would be Nick Varner Buddy Hall Allison fisher. Johnny Archer Efrin Rayes Pittsburg Billy Jimmy Fosco and half of these people I dont even no. If I wore out to much of my brain it must have been because you werent their long enough to watch one game. And you must have brain damage from all those wasted days and nights. Do you even remember being at they club. Because I would love to bet you that you didnt even no what day it was. I no who you are J edger Hover JR. And as far as my poor spelling goes you will have to use your imagination to understand it. Since I got my Harvard education in they canivale and they pool room. And I graduated not from Penn State. but they state Pen. And I dont want to be remembered as a perfect speller because thats not who I was. And when we had a spelling contest in school. I was always they first one to sit down.Because I never spelled a word correctly. But in math I always one every contest. That showes in life we can do whatever we want to do and be whatever we want to be. And Freddy you tried it all in life. You didnt get short changed. And their isnt much left for you to try. You have lived your life out. You can spot Det Whity they one and they nine in all they thinges you have tried and done. Their mite be a reward out for you and you could be on they wanted list not for a crime but for all they things you have tried and done. You could teach people on a lot of subjects outside of pool. If you are a champion and a winner in one game and a loser in another game what does that make you. A winner or a loser. If someone wants to learn how to play perfect one pocket I will teach you for 30 thousad dollares. It will take a month 7 days a week 10 houers or more a day.And you will no they correct way to play. And all your quistions wiil be aswered and explained. I dont think nobody will go for it. But if you are one person that is courious enough to no they correct and perfect way to play. you will no be disapointed. I have been as honest as i can be. And I learned a long time ago people will see and belive they truth. I do not make up stories like Freddy and Grady I tell it like it is wheter they like it or not. And Ronnie and Grady would have had no chance to out manage me because that was my best game. And I would have managed them. And my back ground and carnivale education teaches you how to manage everybody. I am sorry my spelling isnt getting any better but I will have to take resposability and live with it. One of they best places to hustle pool was they Kentucky Derby. Their were hundreds of suckers. And Harold and me made nothing but money in they bares. We beat everybody. And Harold was one of they greatest hustlers in life.And he could do everythig but play pool. And pool was his true love. And I will always remember harold and teebone. Have a great day.
 

SJDinPHX

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Puhleeeze !!!

Puhleeeze !!!

Administrator,

Can you please just get Arty to leave the "y" off the word "the". It would make it so much easier to read his garbled bulls**t.

Thank you,

Dick

PS Theres nothing wrong with him quitting pool to pursue other more profitable ventures. But I'm getting a little sick of his talking down to everyone who never played him.(which was just about everybody)
 
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jay helfert

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Dick Mc Morran said:
Fred, you have finally given me a line on your game. (or what used to be your game) After I finally learned to play one pocket, Ronnie and I tangled at least fifty times, from the 60's to the late 90's. I rarely won getting 9/8, but he NEVER won giving me 8/7. In fact by the late 90's we were playing even, and breaking even. ( he was not aging too well) Thank God I took the 20 year hiatus ('72-'92) or else I probably would have been toast. Also remember, as Grady once said, when you play RA you are allready giving up a ball to the shark. Getting his cash required FULL TIME focus, earplugs, and blinders. He's still around, ask him about some of our wars. He was Hitler, I was Churchill, but we had fun. The last time we played, (I was 70 he was 65) he gave me 9/8 and shot me down. Thats when I hung it up for good. Ask him about the time we went to blows.
Two, out of shape pool player's, rolling around in the mud, the blood, and the beer. Then we went next door and had a drink.:)

Dick
Now we know how good YOU played Dick! Beating Ronnie in his prime with 8-7 makes you one strong player. So you had to play Ervolino's speed or thereabouts. You couldn't play Red or Kelly or Shorty even though, could you? Not and win anyway. You needed 9-8 from those guys minimum.

The spot I liked better was 8-7 on their break and even on mine. I used to break good though. I forgot how. :)
 

jay helfert

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Artie's posts are pure Gold, and there are some nuggets of information that are priceless for aspiring One Pocket players. Steve was kind of enough to hi-lite one of them. It is true, Ronnie changed the way One Pocket was played. He brought total offense into the game. Ronnie always said the best move was "eight and out". And I never saw anyone make that move more often or better than RA.

Artie does seem to have all the facts right when he starts talking about great players and who was who (although he left out Ed Kelly). Artie was cut more in the mold of Jack Cooney, who laid low most of his life, but would occasionally take on a champion. Jack has played in some of the biggest One Pocket action of all time and with good players too. i.e Las Vegas Toby and James Walden.

I am curious what Artie thinks of Jack's game. I suspect they have similar styles. Jack moved as good as anyone I ever saw, when he had too. Artie can be a little over the top sometimes in his posts. Like Dick said, slow down and take a breath once in a while. I'm glad Artie gave credit to the other great players of his era, but I doubt he was stealing with any of them. He was smart enough to look for softer action.

I didn't hear too many stories of Artie beating top players back then, and my ear was tuned into the grapevine pretty good in those days. Maybe he did and I just didn't hear about it. I did get a chance to see all the guys he mentioned play quite a bit, and his assessments are accurate. They all could run out from anywhere. Bugs could start with a long rail bank and Ronnie would start by kicking a ball in. Jersey Red probably played the smartest game back then and maybe Shorty. I didn't see Clem play in his prime. I did spend time around him in Cincy though. I could see he knew his shit.

I wish I had seen Artie play and maybe I did and didn't realize who he was. He laid it down pretty good. If he had run into San Jose Dick on the West Coast he would have remembered him though. Out here, everyone knew that name. He was the second most well known One Pocket player after RA. And Marvin when he was on the coast.

I wonder how Artie did with Marvin. When he was "right" and not hung over, he had the most beautiful pool game you ever saw. It was like watching an artist paint an exquisite portrait. You knew what he was going to do and then he did it so perfectly. When Marvin was running balls it was like watching a river flow. And if he decided to lock you up, he put you in a locked box with no way out. Even a scratch wouldn't save you from a Marvin safety.

Oh well, we'll never know. Artie should write an instructional book on One Pocket while he can. Get a co-author like STEVE BOOTH, Freddie, or Dick to help you. YES ARTIE, you won't get rich on this one, but you WILL leave a legacy, and not just a rumor. You've made big money in your life. Now it is time to leave another mark. There are no more suckers for you to beat. The only sucker if you don't leave something behind is YOU!
 
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fred bentivegna

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Pool gossip line

Pool gossip line

jay helfert said:
Now we know how good YOU played Dick! Beating Ronnie in his prime with 8-7 makes you one strong player. So you had to play Ervolino's speed or thereabouts. You couldn't play Red or Kelly or Shorty even though, could you? Not and win anyway. You needed 9-8 from those guys minimum.


It's amazing, since I was never around Dick, but I did know just about exactly how good he played, from the pool gossip line, without ever seeing him hit a ball. I knew he played that good. Another reason I didnt look too hard for him.
Dick, did you happen to notice in all of Artie's posts that he has never said a single nice thing about me? I know him since he was 18 and I have always made sure he got the credit he deserved in my books and internet postings. Nobody has promoted him more than me, and I only do it because I believe it's a truth that should be known. Accusing me of making up stories with Grady has made my hair stand up. All I ever said about that event is what I'm 100% sure happened: They played for at least 2 days. They played either 4 or 5 ahead. Grady won the freezeout, and they started playing for 4 or 5 hundred a game, Artie won 3 games in a row, and Grady and his backers pulled up. I'll take a lie box to that, and he can pay for it. If I'm wrong he can trumpet it all over the internet. I'm just as stubborn as he is, and if he wont put this subject away neither will I. I didnt attend the whole match, and yes I was partying with dope and young girls, but I never said, because I didnt know, if Artie had Grady on the last game. But I did happen to be there at the end. Plus, his attempts at humiliating me by describing me as a doper and wild hedonist, I kinda take as a compliment in my old age. I think it gives me sort of a cool cache' dont you think?

the Beard
 

demonrho

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One Pocket Art said:
...And my back ground and carnivale education teaches you how to manage everybody..
It's interesting that three great one hole players like Artie B, Cornbred Red, and Ronnie Allen all worked the Carnival circuit for awhile.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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You people are champions at complaining and crtizizing. What have you done to improve they game. You are closed to what I said excepte Jay about playing one pocket correctly. Is that because you dont no or you dont want to no. And I didnt no you needed a spelling liscensefor they sight. This is America and we can wright any way we want to. And as far as critizizing people that I played is not talking down telling they truth. And I did not draw first blood. And I havent said anything about anybody but Freddy and Grady. And I dont like somebody Bsing that didnt hapen. Since it was about me. And I said that nobody nows how to play correct one pocket. And that goes for all that west coast offense. And you guys can put your money together and take they 30 thousand dollar chalange. And I have never said anything about Jack Connie Scott Frost Cliff Jointer or Efren. And If I said something outside of Freddy And Grady Then tell me who I said something about. And If my spelling upsets you then you need to learn how to handle it because it does not bother me. And if it makes you happy I never got a passing gread in spelling. Theyy. And if my tal;king is making you sick you should go and see a doctor. And I never talk about people who I never played. Because their would be nothing to talk about. I never said one thing about you and I dont no you and you dont no me. At least Grady kepte his word. And said he was done with it. But Freddy had to bring it up again and Freddy will ask 100 more people because in his mind their is dought and uncertainte. If you no you are right why would you keep asking people what hapened. And I would like to bet that Freddy put it in Gradyies mind. Because thats how Freddy is and he loves conflict. And Freddy is a ego maniack. And FReddy was 100% sure it was 4 games and now its 4 or 5 games. Their was no freez out it was 5 hunderd dollares a game. And we played for 5 houers. How long were you their Freddy. Nobody plays 5 hundred dollares a game after a 60 houer session. And ecpecialy after playing a long freez out. I will help you out Freddy about a lie box does not work. It has been proven. And they use it to scaring people to confess. Before they take they test. I dont want to smarten you up to much. Because you are smart enough already. Take they bety and I will come to Indiana for they contest. Were you their in they beginning when I played Grady or were you their at they end? Or they times you talking about you have forgotten. I will respond to Jay Helferts post and I dont no you. But I see you are a honest and sincer man. Witch is they greatest quality in a person. Jack was a good pool player but a great hustler. And he was one of they few pool players that new how to hustle. And I even ran into him on they road. Hustling they bars and pool roomes when I was hustling with frosty. And Jack was always a great human being. And I respect Jack and Barbara. Jack played a different style then I played. He also was a run out player and he could make tough shoots under presure and win and he was a winning player. Jack was a great pool hustler. And was one of they few players that new how to hustle. I never bplayed Jack because I never realy looked to beat pool hustlers. Because they were in they same buisness as I was. And Jack new how to handa;e suckers. And if you played Jack you werent stealing anything. Jack was a real pool hustler not a pretend pool hustler. And he made his mark in they world as a pool hustler. Good luck to Barbara and Jack and I wish you all they hapiness I wish myself. You desirve me righting about you because you were great. And nobody nows who will win tell you play. Thanks Jay for describing my assesments as being accurate. That is they best complament I could get. And my honesty is sincere. Marvan Henderson And Cannon Ball Were they two best alaround Black players in they world. And Bugs was they best bank pool and one pocket player in they world. Edie Taylor and shorty and Edie Kelly were three of they best all around players in all pool games. And Harold worst was they greatyest all around player in life. In snooker three cushion billiards and pool. He was fantastic. And he was my eavoeite. And he used a Try Pox bridge. Edie Kelly was a great all around player. He played all games great. And Kelly was one of they greatest tournament players in life. And as a showmen he was Great Awsome and Spectacular That is how I would describe Edie Kelly. And he is a great talker and one of they smartest pool players I ever met.
 

jay helfert

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Thanks for the response Artie. I like hearing what you have to say. I totally respect your opinion about One Pocket and great players. I wish you and Freddie would just drop it on that one game with Grady. It's ancient history now. The fact that you two guys played and had a tight match is sufficient information.

I have a much better idea of who you were now, after reading your posts. You weren't looking for glory or fame, just CASH. That's why I said you remind me of Jack, who is my good friend for many, many years now. I know Barbara from when she was a stunning teenager. One smart cookie that gal.

I realize after reading this, that for you to travel outside Chicago and play the top players even, was a very bad move for you. I totally understand now. I did hear about you Artie from Ronnie and Freddie. I knew you were near unbeatable in Chicago, and you played jam up One Handed. That was the line on you. Everyone that ever mentioned your name back then did so with respect. And you should know that Freddie was one of your biggest supporters. Even years ago, Freddie would just smile and say "Bring them to Chicago."

I ran around with Jimmy Reid and then Keith and Freddie implored me to bring them to play you. Thank goodness I never did. I might have got ironed out betting on Keith. I LOVED his game back when he was a kid. At 9-Ball he was Godzilla for the cash! And he could play great One Hole too. Ronnie trained him pretty good, and couldn't give Keith more than 9-8.

I'm surprised you and Ronnie never talked about One Handed One Pocket. He was the best I ever saw at that game too. If a good player gave Ronnie the break playing One Handed, they were in trouble.
 

SJDinPHX

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jay helfert said:
Thanks for the response Artie. I like hearing what you have to say. I totally respect your opinion about One Pocket and great players. I wish you and Freddie would just drop it on that one game with Grady. It's ancient history now. The fact that you two guys played and had a tight match is sufficient information.

I have a much better idea of who you were now, after reading your posts. You weren't looking for glory or fame, just CASH. That's why I said you remind me of Jack, who is my good friend for many, many years now. I know Barbara from when she was a stunning teenager. One smart cookie that gal.

I realize after reading this, that for you to travel outside Chicago and play the top players even, was a very bad move for you. I totally understand now. I did hear about you Artie from Ronnie and Freddie. I knew you were near unbeatable in Chicago, and you played jam up One Handed. That was the line on you. Everyone that ever mentioned your name back then did so with respect. And you should know that Freddie was one of your biggest supporters. Even years ago, Freddie would just smile and say "Bring them to Chicago."

I ran around with Jimmy Reid and then Keith and Freddie implored me to bring them to play you. Thank goodness I never did. I might have got ironed out betting on Keith. I LOVED his game back when he was a kid. At 9-Ball he was Godzilla for the cash! And he could play great One Hole too. Ronnie trained him pretty good, and couldn't give Keith more than 9-8.

I'm surprised you and Ronnie never talked about One Handed One Pocket. He was the best I ever saw at that game too. If a good player gave Ronnie the break playing One Handed, they were in trouble.
Jay,

Who could not respect your observations, and insight, into our little world.
You are making me feel guilty (almost) for chiding Arty about his grammatical skills, plus, you may be really pissing off the Beard. ;)

Dick
 

Deeman

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Good stuff guys, this is priceless to hear champions discuss the old days. Perfect English and perfect memories is (are) not required. Hats off to all of you.
 

usblues

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amen Deeman....

amen Deeman....

Its great to hear the old champions reminisce,you betcha.On a related note,I especially like the old newspaper headline from the Depression which read "Pool hall burns down 75 left homeless".Adieu,Bob
 

usblues

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That sounds awful...

That sounds awful...

I didnt mean I liked the the story about the tragedy.I just mean the stories then were from an era which made for strong men and times.....
 

Grady

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Me too

Me too

I was "with it" for a time. I was good at it too but you get to where you think everybody is a mark. I learned the ropes being an alibi agent and soon graduated into a first rate count store agent. I quickly noticed that I was the only one who wasn't either a drug addict or an alcoholic. I tired of the lifestyle.
I worked with Walter Gaste and Moore's Modern and then Murphy's out of Kearney, NE. I knew Larry Woods well, who was a pretty fair One Pocket player, considering that he was not much of a shotmaker. I played him 8 to 5 and that was a fair game. Most of you won't know these names but they bring back vivid memories to me.
 

fred bentivegna

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...I'm already pissed off

...I'm already pissed off

Dick Mc Morran said:
Jay,

Who could not respect your observations, and insight, into our little world.
You are making me feel guilty (almost) for chiding Arty about his grammatical skills, plus, you may be really pissing off the Beard. ;)

Dick
I'm already pissed off, Dick. This started out as semi-friendly banter and woofin' but it deviated into name-calling, insults and braggadocio. I dont like the fact that somebody I have supported and acknowledged so much would turn on me, disrespect me as a player, call me a traitor and a bullsh*tter just because we dont see eye to eye on what happened 20 years ago. Has anybody noticed that I have supported and defended this guy on these forums for the last 4 years? One disagreement and he throws me under the bus and accuses me of making up stories with Grady. And incidentally, Dick, I'm speaking to you because you know where I'm coming from, I wouldnt change not one thing I did in my pool career, insofar as my "sucker" habits of playing tough action all over the country and gunfighting with top players. Money was just chips to use in order to fund my "bad game" habit. Thats what I wanted to do, and thats what I did. I'm comfortable with the choices I made. I got good friends all over the country. If I go to visit my pal Little Sammy Eubank in Hot Springs AR, when I hit the city line he puts $500 in my pocket and forces me to take it. Then he'll wine and dine me the whole time I'm there. That's the way the old guard is supposed to act with each other. (Incidentally, when I was coked up at North Shore Billiards, and goin' off, he usually bet against me. I understood, and still loved him.) So unless that other guy we been talking about throws me a bone, and says that I really aint a traitor or bullsh*tter we aint gonna be pals no more.

the Beard
 

vapros

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Freddy, I understand most of what you are saying, and I recall that you have been a stout fan of Artie B.

However, I don't understand about this guy in Hot Springs who gives you money and forces you to take it, every time you go to that town. If anyone in Hot Springs ever does that to me, I'm not going back there - unless I am already on Food Stamps. That's patronizing. He must figure you're on your uppers.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Hi Grady Are you with it? That means that he is one of usa carnie. And if you worked a count down store that means you are a graduate and qualified to beat they MARKS. And they carnnies think everybody is a sucker but them. And if you lose all they time I cant make you a winner. Losing more moey then what you win buts you in they MARK catagory. And if a pool hustler keeps beating somebody what would you call they guy he is beating. A winner or a loser. Lots of people are adicted to losing and they keep losing theirs whole life and if you win at one thing and lose your money in another thing that still makes you a sucker even if you win your money from suckers.They greatest lession you can learn in life is dont lose at anything. And if you lose more then you win you need to change games. If you are a good hustler you can talk anybody into anything just keep talking tell you get what you need to win or dont play. Never play a game that you have they worst of they percentages. Because they result will be minus. Why would you want to play something you cant win at. And only suckers play to get lucky. Because thats their excuse for losing. I learned how to hustle in they carnivale from Cookie Edie and Alabie Al and Hickie Callpeper on Royale American Show.And I learned how to work they flat stores. These Flat store agents could talk you into buying they golden gate bridge.And they were great. And they did it all by talking. Their all in they history books now. Because they FBI put them out of buisness. And closed all they flat stories. BUt it took them 2 generations to figure it out and what was going on. They were a little slow.And today they only have hankie pank jointe. And they are on they square. If you win they give you a price that cost less then they game. And all they are doing is selling plush. Some agents made giant scores. They carnival was my learning experience. If you cant win dont play. And everybody is a potential mark. I have a million stories and events what we did to win. It prepaired me for life.Not for a book education but a street education were you can survive in any country or city by noing what to do. Hustling is glamouras and exciting thats why Minnesota Fats always got Willie Mosconies goat. Even though Fats couldnt beat willy MOsconie in no pool game. He did it all by talking. And remember only suckers gamble to get lucky. Because they finale result will be you will lose all your money. And you have to hustle hard or win a tournament to get more money to lose on a game you will not win at. If you think what I am righting is not they truth or boring I will stop right hir and not go any further. And if one person learns something I will be happy. And I amm sorry if I ofended or hurt someones feeling. And everybody will be O. K. Have a great day.
 

fred bentivegna

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Easy for you to say

Easy for you to say

vapros said:
Freddy, I understand most of what you are saying, and I recall that you have been a stout fan of Artie B.

However, I don't understand about this guy in Hot Springs who gives you money and forces you to take it, every time you go to that town. If anyone in Hot Springs ever does that to me, I'm not going back there - unless I am already on Food Stamps. That's patronizing. He must figure you're on your uppers.

That may be easy for you to say. I'm 68, on one leg, and social security only gives me $273 a month. The best way to be a proud independent sort, is to really be independent.

the Beard
 
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