Lag for first break

Ross Keith Thompson

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Androd told the story about Greg Stevens winning the lag for first break against Lassiter, man was that right on.

Just a little thing lagging for the break. In any race the lag could be the most important part of the whole match, THE LAG.

Lassiter never got to shoot due to losing the LAG.

I won the LAG for 1st break against Lassiter and Ronnie Allen in the al around in 1970, if I don't win those Lags I don't win the al around.

Both my opponents had to come from far behind in a race to 11, I won both matches 11 to 8 because I had first break!

I started with 4 racks against Lassiter, I started with 5 racks against Ronnie, fortunately I played well enough to make it hold up.

Anytime you play a tough opponent or any opponent try lagging the cue ball before you play and get the speed of the table down.

If and when as a player you develop touch with your cue-ball you will advance your game to the next level.

The more you learn about the cue-ball the better a player you will become.
Test your cue ball more and see what you can do with it.

Master the cue ball and there is no limit to your game, everything will come easier.

Practice three cushion and develop power in your stroke.

practice 14 and 1 and develop touch with your cue ball!

And people win the LAG and you may just get to shoot! BAHAHAHA
 

Mkbtank

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Lag for first break

Thanks Keith. I love your posts and that excellent memory of yours!!!! Thanks for the advice too.
 

El Chapo

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Lagging would probably get the award for most underpracticed, important shot.

I hope we can one day solve the opening break issue in one pocket, and make lagging unimportant, as we could probably all agree it sort of ahould be. Because at the heart of this, as we all know, winning a lag should not equate to winning a match. But that is what can easily happen in one pocket. It gives one player way too large an advantage, all other things being equal. Keeping tradk of number of balls pocketed would be a huge task, but i still feel that is the best way i can think of to "solve" who should get the right to break hill-hill.
 

lll

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Lagging would probably get the award for most underpracticed, important shot.

I hope we can one day solve the opening break issue in one pocket, and make lagging unimportant, as we could probably all agree it sort of ahould be. Because at the heart of this, as we all know, winning a lag should not equate to winning a match. But that is what can easily happen in one pocket. It gives one player way too large an advantage, all other things being equal. Keeping tradk of number of balls pocketed would be a huge task, but i still feel that is the best way i can think of to "solve" who should get the right to break hill-hill.
chapo, chapo, chapo
how can you say the lag is the most underpracticed and IMPORTANT shot
yet
hope that one day it becomes unimportant?????:confused:
also since i dont agree with your premise
"we all cant probably sort of agree it should be unimportant."
its a skill shot
and whoever shoots it better is rewarded with the break.
shouldnt we reward a player for his skill?
just askin...:D
btw i enjoy reading your contrarion way to look at things since it makes me think....:)
 

El Chapo

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chapo, chapo, chapo
how can you say the lag is the most underpracticed and IMPORTANT shot
yet
hope that one day it becomes unimportant?????:confused:
also since i dont agree with your premise
"we all cant probably sort of agree it should be unimportant."
its a skill shot
and whoever shoots it better is rewarded with the break.
shouldnt we reward a player for his skill?
just askin...:D
btw i enjoy reading your contrarion way to look at things since it makes me think....:)

Lags are important because they decide matches. Isn't it clear lags should not be match deciders however? And, what about if a guy loses a lag by 2mm and then loses the match because of it. What if a guy loses a lag because there is table variation and he got the boing side of the rail. It should not be an important shot, but it is.

I do not even think it is contrarian. Nobody wants matches decided by lags.

I suppose lags have touch involved. But who do we all admire? A guy like Strickland who can spear a ball in jacked up off the end rail hill-hill, or a guy who lags good? Who does lag good anyway?? Do we even know?!

I think deciding matches on skill is a very very good thing, as you eluded to. I saw some Chinese tournaments that did some great stuff!! What if we followed suit, and actually used real skill to decide matches, instead of acting like a lag is somehow a worthy skill. Every match that goes hill hill, you stop play, and have them shoot 10 shots. Maybe the shot can be the cb is on the headspot, and the ob is on the footspot. Whoever pockets it the most times in the called pocket, wins. Seems too obvious, maybe too logical. I really don't know.

Screw hill-hill games where one guy gets the opening break in one pocket!! That concept should be banned from one pocket! Hill hill in a race to two and one guys gets the opening break!!! Are we serious? Why not reward true skill, skill that we actually admire, to be the decider in matches? We all have no idea is the answer. The Chinese seem to know.
 

lll

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Lags are important because they decide matches. Isn't it clear lags should not be match deciders however? And, what about if a guy loses a lag by 2mm and then loses the match because of it. What if a guy loses a lag because there is table variation and he got the boing side of the rail. It should not be an important shot, but it is.

I do not even think it is contrarian. Nobody wants matches decided by lags.

I suppose lags have touch involved. But who do we all admire? A guy like Strickland who can spear a ball in jacked up off the end rail hill-hill, or a guy who lags good? Who does lag good anyway?? Do we even know?!

I think deciding matches on skill is a very very good thing, as you eluded to. I saw some Chinese tournaments that did some great stuff!! What if we followed suit, and actually used real skill to decide matches, instead of acting like a lag is somehow a worthy skill. Every match that goes hill hill, you stop play, and have them shoot 10 shots. Maybe the shot can be the cb is on the headspot, and the ob is on the footspot. Whoever pockets it the most times in the called pocket, wins. Seems too obvious, maybe too logical. I really don't know.

Screw hill-hill games where one guy gets the opening break in one pocket!! That concept should be banned from one pocket! Hill hill in a race to two and one guys gets the opening break!!! Are we serious? Why not reward true skill, skill that we actually admire, to be the decider in matches? We all have no idea is the answer. The Chinese seem to know.
i guess once again we can agree to disagree...:)
 

El Chapo

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i guess once again we can agree to disagree...:)
We can disagree all we want, but deciding one pocket matches by a final game, where one player obviously will have the break (widely known as advantageous), is extremely dubious.

I always bring up anaolgies, because I genuinely do not think people are seeing this stuff. How could they be?

Like in baseball one team has the home field advantage. That advantage is they get last at bat (and a supportive audience). Not an extra at bat, but just the timing of it all is known as an advantage for some reason, perhaps walk off home runs, or runs scored.

In one pocket, a player gets an extra break! Forgive me, but it just does not seem it has dawned on anybody how devistatingly poor judgement this is. I say that because nobody seems to be doing anything about it. But yeah, if baseball gave one team an extra out, or extra runner on base or something, and never did anything about it even though there were scores of easy fixes, i suppose that would make sense, somehow, somewhere. And I supoose reasonable people could have disagreements over why it was important one team got that extra advantage... It just seems clear who the correct party would be is all. Doesn't it? Really Larry, doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
 

BRLongArm

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We can disagree all we want, but deciding one pocket matches by a final game, where one player obviously will have the break (widely known as advantageous), is extremely dubious.

I always bring up anaolgies, because I genuinely do not think people are seeing this stuff. How could they be?

Like in baseball one team has the home field advantage. That advantage is they get last at bat (and a supportive audience). Not an extra at bat, but just the timing of it all is known as an advantage for some reason, perhaps walk off home runs, or runs scored.

In one pocket, a player gets an extra break! Forgive me, but it just does not seem it has dawned on anybody how devistatingly poor judgement this is. I say that because nobody seems to be doing anything about it. But yeah, if baseball gave one team an extra out, or extra runner on base or something, and never did anything about it even though there were scores of easy fixes, i suppose that would make sense, somehow, somewhere. And I supoose reasonable people could have disagreements over why it was important one team got that extra advantage... It just seems clear who the correct party would be is all. Doesn't it? Really Larry, doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
Proposed remedy?
 

LSJohn

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shouldnt we reward a player for his skill?
Sure, but he has a point. I think 9 ball has reached the point -- if it wasn't always there -- that it should be played alternate break with the 9 ball on the spot.

One pocket is different... I think the skill required in the lag and the value of break are about equal, and we already play it alternate break.

========

Boxing analogy: Whoever wins the lag -- can spit the farthest, jump the highest or has the biggest pecker -- the loser has to stand still while the winner gets 9 shots to knock him out. If he doesn't, the roles reverse.

Now that I think about it, the analogy doesn't hold up... yeah, I'd go watch that. :D
 
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BRLongArm

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Breaking results on TV table at Derby City 2019

Breaking results on TV table at Derby City 2019

Games won by breaker

When breaking from his left side of table -- 20 of 38 (53%)

When breaking from his right side of table -- 24 of 37 (65%)

Total -- 44 of 75 (59%)

Doesn't look like a devastating advantage, at least not in this sample size.
 

lll

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We can disagree all we want, but deciding one pocket matches by a final game, where one player obviously will have the break (widely known as advantageous), is extremely dubious.
Really Larry, doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
Games won by breaker

When breaking from his left side of table -- 20 of 38 (53%)

When breaking from his right side of table -- 24 of 37 (65%)

Total -- 44 of 75 (59%)

Doesn't look like a devastating advantage, at least not in this sample size.
CHAPO
how else would you like to start the game without the break??
since i think we will agree (i hope )that someone has to break
why should it not be the one who lags better??
in the nba during all star weekend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Weekend_Skills_Challenge
the pros are challenged on many skills
the lag is a skill shot that all competitors know will determine who breaks the last game in a hill hill situation
so
the lag is another test of their skill
Really el chapo doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
:D
 

beatle

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even if its hill hill i think the person who's turn it is to break should break.

why not it works both ways for everyone.

and if on the last game the rule is lag or flip that is the rule you knew when you started so why not.
 

beatle

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unless you are in a tournament if you are not a good lagger insist on flipping, if good at the lag insist on that.

how to get an extra edge before the game even starts.
 

vapros

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John, the two parties will take turns kicking each other three times until one of them gives up and quits. Joe Blow goes first and kicks the crap out of John Doe three times. Then, as John picks himself up off the ground and prepares his revenge, Joe gives up and quits. :D
 

El Chapo

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CHAPO
how else would you like to start the game without the break??
since i think we will agree (i hope )that someone has to break
why should it not be the one who lags better??
in the nba during all star weekend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Star_Weekend_Skills_Challenge
the pros are challenged on many skills
the lag is a skill shot that all competitors know will determine who breaks the last game in a hill hill situation
so
the lag is another test of their skill
Really el chapo doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
:D
Let us just stipulate for clarity that the average # of runs baseball teams get per game is 8.

Let us also assume, I have heard Grady quote this number, that the break is worth 2 balls.

So, if we lay the analogy on top of baseball... 2 balls over 8 total in one pocket is 1/4, or 25% of the balls!

CAN YOU IMAGINE A BASEBALL TEAM STARTING A GAME OFF WITH TWO FREE RUNS!!! that would be analogous to the way a hill hill match goes down. one player getting ~25% of the balls "free".

That would be insane, would it not??

Why don't the tennis pros decide who will get the first break by hitting a ball up in the air and seeing who gets closer to a line they are shooting for? that would be a pretty stupid way to settle matches.... even though there is some skill and touch involved. so, they actually decide it by playing, and give each players the same number of serves.
 
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El Chapo

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Proposed remedy?
I do not get paid enough :heh but one is to count balls and have the guy who makes more break hill hill. another is a shootout, no hill-hill games (this could also speed things up drastically if desired). watch one if you are up for it, they are pretty exciting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWNjhJ0OSB4 since it is one pocket you could do some sort of bank shootout, or get however creative you want with it.

the first one would be tough at small tournaments but i feel very doable at large, pro tournaments.

we could all come up with more, better alternatives, but I do not think we will. we probably should try though in my opinion.

in tennis they seem to have a very sophisticated tie break system. i can't say i fully understand it, but it emphasizes fairness, and assumes server will win or have a great advantage. that should be our baseline as well... so how can we allow the guy who breaks "win" or have the advantage every time? in tennis, the first guy serves once, then they each serve twice until someone wins by two. no good for one pocket but just the thought they put into it is the point.
 
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