John vs. Billy & Artie Part 2 - Shoot At My Hole Here?....No Way!

lfigueroa

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fred bentivegna said:
Reminds me of an old axiom that tells me why I should quit trying to wake up the dead, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

the Beard

You know what Freddy, the quote is very cute and all, and I could come up with half a dozen quotes to counter, but why not roll up your sleeves and explain the logic, if any, as to why you think this shot selection was right? Otherwise you belong on AZ :)

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

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Cowboy Dennis said:
mr3cushion,

I don't mean to detract from Artie's win or make excuses for John's loss. That is not my business or my concern. I am putting myself in the postion of playing someone who passes up those two balls to play safe. Nobody has ever done that to me and won. The biggest "squeeze" artist that we had around here, (Detroit), was "Miami". He was the original squeeze artist around this part. I could not believe how safe he played and refused to shoot at his hole when given a decent shot. And he did compliment Artie's game one day by saying about Artie: "That guy, he don't give up no shot".

Without seeming to make any excuses for anybody it is necessary to point out that JH had severe leg problems just before the match to the point where he was not sure if he would be able to play or not, if I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong).

I will say this, forgetting everything else for a moment, the match took almost 12 hours for 11 games to be played. That is as close to even as you can get I guess. I tip my hat to both players for their game, but you cannot ever convince me that passing up those two open balls is the right shot in that situation. If Artie had lost, you or some others would be saying that he was crazy for passing up those two balls, wouldn't you?

Dennis

This also reminds me of an observation Billy himself made on a tape. He said something like: playing (I think) Allen Hopkins, on his own table, Billy felt totally comfortable because (I took it), Hopkins was playing this style pool. Billy was happy and unthreaten. OTOH, playing Efren, he felt like he, "was in an oven" because every shot Efren shot at his hole and Billy never knew what Efren was going to do next.

ALL of us, at one time or another, have played someone who, when we thought we had sold out, went into shock when the other guy passed on offense and played something like the shot in question.

It's like a big fat wet one, right on the kisser. You settle in and say to yourself, "Self, this guy can't hurt me" and you enjoy the match because the other guy can't win.

HST, if I'm playing a serious player, and he can pass on that kind of opportunity, and just basically f*ck with me, then I know I'm playing outside my weight class and just need to unscrew, unless I'm in it just for the lesson.

Lou Figueroa
 
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NH Steve

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I think you guys may be missing another really important point that has to do specifically with the partners game format: Pairing a good "shooter" with a good strong defensive "mover" makes for a very, very solid team. Artie is obviously very comfortable with the defensive side, and Billy well suited to the offensive side. That's a formidable combination.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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NH Steve said:
I think you guys may be missing another really important point that has to do specifically with the partners game format: Pairing a good "shooter" with a good strong defensive "mover" makes for a very, very solid team. Artie is obviously very comfortable with the defensive side, and Billy well suited to the offensive side. That's a formidable combination.

I'm strictly referring to the 1 on 1 match, not the partners game.
 

KindlyOleUncleDave

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never mind

never mind

For the record, and this is my opinion,.... never mind.... another long dissertation gone.
 

jay helfert

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I watched a good bit of the partners match against John and then several games of the heads up match between Artie and John. All I've got to say is that Artie KNOWS One Pocket! This guy sees shots that Efren might overlook. And he executes them too! Now I understand why he was so feared around Chicago. It ain't just about squeezing, it's about understanding the game. And Artie UNDERSTANDS!
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
jay could you give a few examples
THe partner game was vary different the me playing John. Billy wants to shoot on every shot and our two styles clash. Billy has a different style and a different way ove thinking. Billy wants to shoot at every shot. And her is a few things that happened in the games. Billy said He did 35 things I asked him to do and I wouldnt do one thing he asked me to do. But I did one Billy told me to cut the 7 ball in and I missed the shot by a dimond and a half. And After that Billy didnt ask me to shoot no more. THe Great Ronnie Allen was thier watching and he seen me bank a hangger bang to win a game 8 to 7 and thier were like 30 people watching and Ronnnie couldnt help himself he said Artie you finaly made a ball. And everyone started laughing. Ronnie said watching me and John play he is going to have to start drinking wisky the beers not strong enough we said he doesnt have tgat kind ove patience. Billy made almose all the balls but he shots And I move . And I move weather its a parther game or a single game. Billy has a lot ove Gamble and Billy was the only one thier gambling and looking to play and bet high. Billy has more gamble then all those pool players put together. If I was thier to play and Hustle Billy would be the man to play. Because he has money and he bets his money. And his gamescare tough were he can win or loose. And Billy will play anybody. It does not matter how good the play. John played better against me then he did in the partners game. But partner games are tough when both players do the opposite things in a game. And I am sure John enjoyed the head up game way over the parner game. I know I enjoyed the head up game better then the partner game. Every one I watched play one pocket played a shooting game but me. John playes very hard to win he is a ferce competitor. I had a great time at the tournement but the only action I seen was John and Billy. THe rest was all tournememt. I know if I play Dick he wont be sa much fun to play with as John. And I sat that because you cannot find a nicer man to play with then John. Billys Style is shooting. My style is shooting and John does both styles. Ronnie watched me play and he said he never seen nothing like it. And he thinks like Dick that his style would have won. But thats what all the shooters think including Billy. I like the Chicago Squezze over the West coast Offense.
 

fred bentivegna

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Ronnie not Efren

Ronnie not Efren

lfigueroa said:
This also reminds me of an observation Billy himself made on a tape. He said something like: playing (I think) Allen Hopkins, on his own table, Billy felt totally comfortable because (I took it), Hopkins was playing this style pool. Billy was happy and unthreaten. OTOH, playing Efren, he felt like he, "was in an oven" because every shot Efren shot at his hole and Billy never knew what Efren was going to do next.

ALL of us, at one time or another, have played someone who, when we thought we had sold out, went into shock when the other guy passed on offense and played something like the shot in question.

It's like a big fat wet one, right on the kisser. You settle in and say to yourself, "Self, this guy can't hurt me" and you enjoy the match because the other guy can't win.

HST, if I'm playing a serious player, and he can pass on that kind of opportunity, and just basically f*ck with me, then I know I'm playing outside my weight class and just need to unscrew, unless I'm in it just for the lesson.

Lou Figueroa
I'm not going to repeat the quote again (a fool...etc.,) but I want to correct you on the Billy quote. I put that quote in one of my books years ago. The player he was referring to that had put him in a "hot oven" was Ronnie Allen not Efren, and Billy was receiving the same game from Hopkins and Ronnie.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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It was in the partners game

It was in the partners game

Cowboy Dennis said:
I'm strictly referring to the 1 on 1 match, not the partners game.
The shot in question occurred early in the partners game.

Beard

I played "Miami," Isaac Gonzales onepocket in Detroit some years back. I beat him 4 in a line and he howled like a banshee and quit. The difference between how Miami played the game and how Artie plays it, is astronomical.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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I'm waiting to be motivated

I'm waiting to be motivated

lfigueroa said:
You know what Freddy, the quote is very cute and all, and I could come up with half a dozen quotes to counter, but why not roll up your sleeves and explain the logic, if any, as to why you think this shot selection was right? Otherwise you belong on AZ :)

Lou Figueroa
Before I start spilling the good beans, I am committed to waiting until I can preach to an audience that is open-minded and serious about learning something new, not just expose myself to inspection, criticism and second guessing. I have had enough of that. I am comfortable enough in my knowledge whereby I dont first need it to be validated. Get your entitlements from this Democratic administration. Your weak jibe about AZ, is what belongs on AZ.

Beard
I already have an ex-wife that uses up all my entitlement stash.
 

jay helfert

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lll said:
jay could you give a few examples
He escaped from some traps with very innovative shots that no one on the sidelines saw. And most importantly he executed the shots well. When he was playing safe, often he stuck the cue ball right on a ball, making it that much more difficult to play back. Even when left down table and shooting from distance he was able to find the perfect ball to play off and not leave anything for John.

There were many shots where Artie moved multiple balls and they always seemed to head towards his hole. Once again when he pulled the trigger he made solid hits on balls and didn't have to baby anything. Artie has a nice solid stroke and goes through the cue ball well. He handled whitey quite nicely on almost all his shots. That part reminded me a little of Ronnie. I think I see why his game was so strong once upon a time.

All that being said, I still like Ronnie in his prime over a player like Artie. Ronnie would find shots that just weren't there for lesser players and also execute them to perfection. Ronnie was ALWAYS moving balls toward his hole and if one went in, that spelled doom! Ronnie ran eight and out (and ten and out) better than anyone before or since. In that department it's not even close.

Even Artie would not have been able to out move Ronnie. It would have been a great game, but Ronnie wins! JMHO of course. I was still very impressed by what I saw, more from Artie than anyone else. Billy's game has slipped appreciably and John is slightly out of his league here. It's like a AAA ballplayer playing in the majors. Tough action.
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
The shot in question occurred early in the partners game.

Beard

I played "Miami," Isaac Gonzales onepocket in Detroit some years back. I beat him 4 in a line and he howled like a banshee and quit. The difference between how Miami played the game and how Artie plays it, is astronomical.

Beard

Freddy,

I guess I should have read the title of the thread. I was under the impression that it was the singles game. That does put a SLIGHTLY different spin on it. He wasn't comfortable with the shot at his hole and figured BI could get the balls later I guess. It means the same thing in the end:they had the best of it and knew it.

Let me take an educated guess about how much cash you won from Miami. If you won 4 games, which by itself is unheard of for him, you must have had an extra c-note in your pocket after beating him. $25 per game was pretty much his limit with everybody. And usually losing two games would make him pull up. I watched Grady give him 10-7 (twice) and Miami only bet $25 per game.

To me and players my speed,(weak), back in 1985 when Miami first hit town as I recall, he was the only purely defensively oriented player that we had ever seen. I learned a ton from him about defense. But I also won many games from him because he refused to shoot at his hole when I knew it was the right shot for him. And Miami did compliment Artie's game, and that was strong praise coming from a guy who in his younger days didn't give up air to nobody.

You played real good to beat him Freddy. I know how good he played and it took a top player to get the best of my little Puerto Rican friend.

Dennis
 

jay helfert

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Freddy,

I guess I should have read the title of the thread. I was under the impression that it was the singles game. That does put a SLIGHTLY different spin on it. He wasn't comfortable with the shot at his hole and figured BI could get the balls later I guess. It means the same thing in the end:they had the best of it and knew it.

Let me take an educated guess about how much cash you won from Miami. If you won 4 games, which by itself is unheard of for him, you must have had an extra c-note in your pocket after beating him. $25 per game was pretty much his limit with everybody. And usually losing two games would make him pull up. I watched Grady give him 10-7 (twice) and Miami only bet $25 per game.

To me and players my speed,(weak), back in 1985 when Miami first hit town as I recall, he was the only purely defensively oriented player that we had ever seen. I learned a ton from him about defense. But I also won many games from him because he refused to shoot at his hole when I knew it was the right shot for him. And Miami did compliment Artie's game, and that was strong praise coming from a guy who in his younger days didn't give up air to nobody.

You played real good to beat him Freddy. I know how good he played and it took a top player to get the best of my little Puerto Rican friend.

Dennis
Last I heard, he is still around. In Chicago maybe? He would be late 70's to early 80's.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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jay helfert said:
Last I heard, he is still around. In Chicago maybe? He would be late 70's to early 80's.

His wife passed away a few years ago and he moved back to Puerto Rico to live with his daughter.
 

jrhendy

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jay helfert said:
Billy's game has slipped appreciably and John is slightly out of his league here. It's like a AAA ballplayer playing in the majors. Tough action.
I can't say you didn't tell me, but I took a shot at it anyway.

I think Billy's game was much better in Galveston than it was at the Derby. I sweated him playing Monster John quite a bit there and think he looked much better in Galveston. The way he played at the Derby influenced my decision to play them partners. I was thinking of asking him for a ball playing heads up. That was before the partner game and watching him play Frost. It would have been another disaster for me.

I still think I have a shot against Artie and will try again. Couldn't play a classier guy and maybe I learned something this time.
 

mr3cushion

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Cow Boy; One thing Miami may have forgotten to mention, he had NO CHANCE playing Artie any game playing one-handed, Artie's best game may have been 8-ball and 3cush one handed, he robbed David Howard at the Northshore.
 

fred bentivegna

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What a catch!

What a catch!

Cowboy Dennis said:
Freddy,

I guess I should have read the title of the thread. I was under the impression that it was the singles game. That does put a SLIGHTLY different spin on it. He wasn't comfortable with the shot at his hole and figured BI could get the balls later I guess. It means the same thing in the end:they had the best of it and knew it.

Let me take an educated guess about how much cash you won from Miami. If you won 4 games, which by itself is unheard of for him, you must have had an extra c-note in your pocket after beating him. $25 per game was pretty much his limit with everybody. And usually losing two games would make him pull up. I watched Grady give him 10-7 (twice) and Miami only bet $25 per game.

To me and players my speed,(weak), back in 1985 when Miami first hit town as I recall, he was the only purely defensively oriented player that we had ever seen. I learned a ton from him about defense. But I also won many games from him because he refused to shoot at his hole when I knew it was the right shot for him. And Miami did compliment Artie's game, and that was strong praise coming from a guy who in his younger days didn't give up air to nobody.

You played real good to beat him Freddy. I know how good he played and it took a top player to get the best of my little Puerto Rican friend.

Dennis
Dennis, I must give you credit. That was exactly how much we bet ($25) and I know he went 2 games over (4 barrels) his usual limit (2 barrels). That was what he was howling about, going the extra 2 barrels.

Beard
 

Cowboy Dennis

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mr3cushion said:
Cow Boy; One thing Miami may have forgotten to mention, he had NO CHANCE playing Artie any game playing one-handed, Artie's best game may have been 8-ball and 3cush one handed, he robbed David Howard at the Northshore.

mr3cushion,

Miami had the utmost respect for Artie's game and never said anything about a one-handed game. When he first hit town back in '85, guys my speed would give him 8-7 and he played one-handed. It was the greatest $10 a game lessons that I could have got from anybody. Even if I lost, it wasn't that much and I just watched his moves, especially from the end rail. He had a great touch playing one-handed (compared to us,two-handed). But I think his greatest failing was that he had no heart. Once backed into a corner, he would play some of the greatest pool you've ever seen, but he usually quit before he got backed into that corner. He refused to book a loser. He was money in the bank if you bet on him. You ordinarily could not lose more than two games before he quit.

Dennis
 
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