John vs. Billy & Artie Part 2 - Shoot At My Hole Here?....No Way!

One Pocket Ghost

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Ok, guys, for those of you who couldn't be there, this will give you some idea of Artie's steadfast determination to play cautiously....>>>

This happened early in the second or third game....John pocket-scratched - Artie has ball in hand, and he has pocket A....The 11 and 1 balls were as pictured - the other balls were approx. where I have them placed....Artie's interesting choice here, was not to shoot the 1 or 11 ball into his pocket...:eek:...he instead elected to clear out the balls in front of John's pocket....this extreme-ducking shot selection, even got a big chuckle out of Billy....:D.


- Ghost


PS, Hey Freddy....I don't think your nickname is strong enough, lol...even an anaconda can't squeeze as hard as Artie on that shot...I think that kind of brutal squeezing gives an anaconda about 10-6....:D


[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AaYt3BUWT4CBbP3DYVm3ECQE3FQGa4GBTA4HBRt3ICAc4JFJx4KTss3LCJA4MEtR4NCJP3OEvU1POPe4QdWs@[/CUETABLE]
 

NH Steve

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An interesting thought occurs to me looking at this. I think a lot of players -- maybe me included -- would shoot the 11 or 1-ball, because we couldn't handle the potential ridicule for passing up that kind of offensive shot with ball in hand -- even if we had some niggling doubts about it. The point is, you have to be comfortable with the "squeeze" mantle just as much as you have to be comfortable with the shot itself. Artie clearly is not going to care what people think of his choice of shot; he's going to be making his decisions 100% on "what is my best shot to win" -- it doesn't have to be pretty.

And speaking of nicknames, it sure sounds like Henderson could be called, "Gentleman John".
 

lfigueroa

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Ok, guys, for those of you who couldn't be there, this will give you some idea of Artie's steadfast determination to play cautiously....>>>

This happened early in the second or third game....John pocket-scratched - Artie has ball in hand, and he has pocket A....The 11 and 1 balls were as pictured - the other balls were approx. where I have them placed....Artie's interesting choice here, was not to shoot the 1 or 11 ball into his pocket...:eek:...he instead elected to clear out the balls in front of John's pocket....this extreme-ducking shot selection, even got a big chuckle out of Billy....:D.


- Ghost


PS, Hey Freddy....I don't think your nickname is strong enough, lol...even an anaconda can't squeeze as hard as Artie on that shot...I think that kind of brutal squeezing gives an anaconda about 10-6....:D


[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AaYt3BUWT4CBbP3DYVm3ECQE3FQGa4GBTA4HBRt3ICAc4JFJx4KTss3LCJA4MEtR4NCJP3OEvU1POPe4QdWs@[/CUETABLE]

A couple or three questions come to mind:

Do folks out there consider this "smart" 1pocket?

Or, do you think of a play like this more like Grady would have probably said from the booth, "This is cowardice of the first order."

Lou Figueroa
 

gulfportdoc

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Good question, Lou. It will be interesting to read Hendy's comments when he gets back home. He's travelling today, so we should hear something by tomorrow.

Artie was playing lock down safe one-hole as Billy's partner. He was having execution problems, presumably because he was only shooting every 4th inning. Because of that, had John been more on his game, the outcome might have been different. Artie did have one run of 7.

In the match with Artie/Hendy, Artie obviously had more turns to gather his stroke. As a result he probably was able to approach his traditional game style.

Artie definitely does not display cowardice. He steps right up to a challenge. Freddy's description is probably more accurate: his style is "gruesome".

While I'm on the subject, I was a little surprised to find out what a nice guy Artie is. He's very unassuming, and willing to help anyone with anything they ask. He freely gave me some pointers. And if our little session hadn't been happening just as an entire flight of matches were about to start, causing all the tables to be used, we probably would have stayed at the table for many hours.

Doc
 

lll

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if you dont think you are a lock to make the 2 balls and then move the balls from his pocket its smart. its also smart since artie probably ( my assumption) figured he could do the moving, only shooting at hangers and let billy do the shooting. however its not smart to not get 2 balls when you can( assuming you will be able to get into a good position to move his balls after you get your 2.if where you are now gives you the best chance to move his balls and making 2 wont get you back to a good position then its better to move the balls) you cant win if you dont get balls in your hole.imho
 

beatle

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artie had to be afraid he would miss because he is out of stroke. so he doesnt shoot at anything that can sell out. not right if you are playing at all as these two balls should be yours then make the knock out.
 

vapros

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I gotta tell you, guys - I probably would have played it the way Artie did. I'm assuming he hit the 2 and the 6 with the cue ball and took out the 4 with the rebounding 2.

Cowardice is a way of life for those of us who don't shoot very straight. It can be overdone, of course, but it's in my game plan right from the time I begin screwing my stick together. And screwing on my tip. :rolleyes:

When in doubt, punt. :eek:
 

One Pocket Ghost

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vapros said:
I'm assuming he hit the 2 and the 6 with the cue ball and took out the 4 with the rebounding 2.


v, as I said in my opening post, I can't remember exactly how the cluster was situated by John's pocket....and Skin, to answer your question - the shot turned out well for Artie's team...the balls were cleared away from John's pocket, and John was left safe on the bottom rail.


- Ghost
 

Skin

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One Pocket Ghost said:
v, as I said in my opening post, I can't remember exactly how the cluster was situated by John's pocket....and Skin, to answer your question - the shot turned out well for Artie's team...the balls were cleared away from John's pocket, and John was left safe on the bottom rail.


- Ghost
Well, I'd say it was a good decision, then. All's well that ends well.

Skin
 

fred bentivegna

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Please pay attn.

Please pay attn.

Is anybody paying attn? You are getting hit over the head with Artie the Anacoda's monstrosous (sic) Onepocket philosophy, and you keep missing the point. Do results count for anything? Or are we bound to moral, ethical and egotistical principles? I said it, and I have been saying it, Artie is operating on a different 1pkt plane entirely. Take advantage of this opportunity and learn something. Did you really think he moved the speed he moved because he did things the way you thought they should be done? He was my main rival for years. I didnt like the way he won. I thought his game was boring and ugly. I rooted against him regularly. I threatened him physically often. However, I was never dumb enough to bet against him -- or to question his shot choice.

Beard
Keep in mind, The Anaconda told Jack Cooney that he was a Onepkt dunce.
 

SJDinPHX

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fred bentivegna said:
Is anybody paying attn? You are getting hit over the head with Artie the Anacoda's monstrosous (sic) Onepocket philosophy, and you keep missing the point. Do results count for anything? Or are we bound to moral, ethical and egotistical principles? I said it, and I have been saying it, Artie is operating on a different 1pkt plane entirely. Take advantage of this opportunity and learn something. Did you really think he moved the speed he moved because he did things the way you thought they should be done? He was my main rival for years. I didnt like the way he won. I thought his game was boring and ugly. I rooted against him regularly. I threatened him physically often. However, I was never dumb enough to bet against him -- or to question his shot choice.

Beard
Keep in mind, The Anaconda told Jack Cooney that he was a Onepkt dunce.
I shall refer to my post # 42, in the "John Vs. Billy/AB thread".. You surely must have missed it, Fred, as you certainly ignored it, and went on with your crowing.....here is a small excerpt;

"But before the crowing gets too loud, I don't think that besting a 70 year old guy, somewhat past his prime,...is cause for a parade down State St., as was given Michael Jordan when he (almost single-handedly) won titles for the "da Bulls."

Theres a lot more if you'd care to check it out, before your, always subtle [sic] boasting gets out of hand...AGAIN..:eek:

Keep proving that Chicago has more braggard's per capita... you are now working on the
"least gracious winner's on the planet", catagory. <----note NO SMILEY FACE !

PS. I'm taking a break for a while (I'm sure you will call it pouting)...brag to John when he gets home.
 
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lfigueroa

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fred bentivegna said:
Is anybody paying attn? You are getting hit over the head with Artie the Anacoda's monstrosous (sic) Onepocket philosophy, and you keep missing the point. Do results count for anything? Or are we bound to moral, ethical and egotistical principles? I said it, and I have been saying it, Artie is operating on a different 1pkt plane entirely. Take advantage of this opportunity and learn something. Did you really think he moved the speed he moved because he did things the way you thought they should be done? He was my main rival for years. I didnt like the way he won. I thought his game was boring and ugly. I rooted against him regularly. I threatened him physically often. However, I was never dumb enough to bet against him -- or to question his shot choice.

Beard
Keep in mind, The Anaconda told Jack Cooney that he was a Onepkt dunce.

Well, personally, I'm not buying it. The shooter has ball in hand, for crying out loud, and has to shoot A 3 FOOT STOP SHOT on the 11, for position on the 1, with natural position for the 15, and a break shot on the stack to get out. And he's going to pass?!!

Pass on a 3 foot stop shot?! (No wonder people say they're afraid of spot shots :)

At a minimum, the shooter is going to get two balls and if he doesn't like getting on the 15, THEN he can fram the balls (probably putting at least one, if not two balls, on his side), after pocketing two balls and getting his man to play him 9-6.

Sure, you can clear the guy's pocket, play him 9-8, and win. But even if you're just a drunk Girl Scout, and can get someone to hold you up to the table long enough, you gotta shoot the stop shot, IMO.

Lou Figueroa
burp
 
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mr3cushion

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Guys; We're all forgetting the main objective, is to WIN!, not how ugly it looks, but get the job done. On a score card for golf, it does'nt have a space how, just how many. Just like the man said, "you wanna keep score ,it's real simple, you count your money at the end, whom ever has the most is the winner". If I didn't pick up a cue for 25 yrs. or so, I think I might think twice about what I can make right now, not in practice for the cheese, the man was just being honest with himself, he knows he can't play anymore, he just wanted to prove he knows what he's doing mentaly.IMO
 

Cowboy Dennis

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lfigueroa said:
Well, personally, I'm not buying it. The shooter has ball in hand, for crying out loud, and has to shoot A 3 FOOT STOP SHOT on the 11, for position on the 1, with natural position for the 15, and a break shot on the stack to get out. And he's going to pass?!!

Pass on a 3 foot stop shot?! (No wonder people say they're afraid of spot shots :)

At a minimum, the shooter is going to get two balls and if he doesn't like getting on the 15, THEN he can fram the balls (probably putting at least one, if not two balls, on his side), after pocketing two balls and getting his man to play him 9-6.

I agree with this observation and will add one thing not mentioned yet. Any player anywhere who can pass up the two balls with ball-in-hand behind the line just to play safe, was going to win anyway. Little Red Riding Hood would have made those two balls and then played safe. It does not matter what ended up happening. Anybody who passes up those two balls to play safe is not going to beat an equal player. You cannot give up two balls that easily and win against an equal player.

P.S. Only players from Arizona & Chicago are afraid of spot-shots. All the rest of us shoot them and win. Or lose if we miss:) .
 

fred bentivegna

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Ok, I give

Ok, I give

Reminds me of an old axiom that tells me why I should quit trying to wake up the dead, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

the Beard
 

mr3cushion

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Dennis; From what I've heard from observers, they were of equal ability at this time in thier lives. John one style, Artie another, Most people that wittnessed the match agree, Artie won strickly on his better understanding of playing mistake free 1p at this time in his life. Remember, He went there to WIN, not to put on a show. And like Doc said, after the match was over, he was glad to indulge in sharing some of his thoughts on the game. All in all, it's over, those were the choices he made to get the job done.........................
 

Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
Reminds me of an old axiom that tells me why I should quit trying to wake up the dead, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

the Beard

Freddy,

I understand what you are saying, I do. But no player can pass up two relatively free balls in an even game and still win. That means the game was not even. I don't think that's arguable.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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mr3cushion said:
Dennis; From what I've heard from observers, they were of equal ability at this time in thier lives. John one style, Artie another, Most people that wittnessed the match agree, Artie won strickly on his better understanding of playing mistake free 1p at this time in his life. Remember, He went there to WIN, not to put on a show. And like Doc said, after the match was over, he was glad to indulge in sharing some of his thoughts on the game. All in all, it's over, those were the choices he made to get the job done.........................

mr3cushion,

I don't mean to detract from Artie's win or make excuses for John's loss. That is not my business or my concern. I am putting myself in the postion of playing someone who passes up those two balls to play safe. Nobody has ever done that to me and won. The biggest "squeeze" artist that we had around here, (Detroit), was "Miami". He was the original squeeze artist around this part. I could not believe how safe he played and refused to shoot at his hole when given a decent shot. And he did compliment Artie's game one day by saying about Artie: "That guy, he don't give up no shot".

Without seeming to make any excuses for anybody it is necessary to point out that JH had severe leg problems just before the match to the point where he was not sure if he would be able to play or not, if I remember correctly,(and I could be wrong).

I will say this, forgetting everything else for a moment, the match took almost 12 hours for 11 games to be played. That is as close to even as you can get I guess. I tip my hat to both players for their game, but you cannot ever convince me that passing up those two open balls is the right shot in that situation. If Artie had lost, you or some others would be saying that he was crazy for passing up those two balls, wouldn't you?

Dennis
 

lfigueroa

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Cowboy Dennis said:
I agree with this observation and will add one thing not mentioned yet. Any player anywhere who can pass up the two balls with ball-in-hand behind the line just to play safe, was going to win anyway. Little Red Riding Hood would have made those two balls and then played safe. It does not matter what ended up happening. Anybody who passes up those two balls to play safe is not going to beat an equal player. You cannot give up two balls that easily and win against an equal player.

P.S. Only players from Arizona & Chicago are afraid of spot-shots. All the rest of us shoot them and win. Or lose if we miss:) .

This is a very subtle observation, and most likely, very accurate.

Artie was just messin' (not my preferred word to describe this) with him, or he could not have won, passing on those two balls.

Lou Figueroa
 
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