Jet vs Shannon Murphy

fred bentivegna

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The table

The table

usblues said:
Hey Freddie,I know what you've seen in your travels which would be about everything so I had to re-read your #17 post and was wondering,I'm hip to the money stuff/angles but how do you know about the table being wrong?Just because it was a Diamond or something more?Just curious.....thanks,Bob
The Diamond table part was unavoidable. That's what they had to play on, no matter what. There are zero Diamonds in Chicago so that was a big edge to Shannon. The mistake however, was Jet's choice of table. He was allowed to pick the table, that was good. But that was the only really professional management move that Ed and he made in the match.

He picked the toughest table in the house! How is he supposed to develop any rhythm on a strange, tough table? Reverse the process. Imagine a road player is coming into your room to play you. What table do you want to play him on? The toughest table of course.

Some of the biggest guns on my beat list fell to me on table #24 in Bensingers. (4 1/2 x9 Gold Crown) Grady, Donnie Anderson, Steve Cook, David Howard, etc. This was after I couldnt get visitors to play anymore on the 5 x 10s. The box was a monster. Grady called it a "cold deck."

Bensingers was a great home court. If miraculously, somehow things went wrong on table 24, we would move to the 5 x 10s, starting with table 13, then to the little tougher table 17, then the even tougher table 19 with the flat snooker rails. Then finally, with no human ever getting this far thru the gauntlet, we had table 22. Dead, flat snooker rails, slow cloth, 4 1/2 pockets with deep wells. Dallas West never ran a 30 on this table.

Beard

The tables were all level of course. Just tough.
 

usblues

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death valley

death valley

I hear ya Freddie about the toughest table being the worst for a stranger who needs confidence No#1 especially on the road.Need that groove,dead without it.I have heard your table talk of Bensingers before and dug it as they are so different and you knew exactly how they played.Hopefully in the long run this will help though its never easy losing money unless your fat,thanks,Bob
 
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Fatboy

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Home court is huge, especially when a player dosent get out much. Speaking for myself it's a lot more than a ball, it's at least two, perhaps 3. I'm a one table player. Which is weak and something I need to work on, years ago when I lived in N.Ca and played in different rooms all the time it sure wasn't as important, now out side my table I'm weak.

Point is that it isn't a permeant thing-anyone can get used to traveling around or the opposite become a one table player. it's just a matter of working at it to get what you want. There is zero doubt Jett can play top speed banks anywhere with a few trips back to back. JA told me worst case it takes him about 4 hours at the most to adjust to any equipment and he is at 90%+. that's faster than most players I'm sure as he is JA and been everywhere for 25 years and going. Takes me a couple weeks to adjust if there is a big difference from my box.


Best
Eric


Freddy I mite be reddy thus year. :)
 

fred bentivegna

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I'll be there...

I'll be there...

Fatboy said:
Home court is huge, especially when a player dosent get out much. Speaking for myself it's a lot more than a ball, it's at least two, perhaps 3. I'm a one table player. Which is weak and something I need to work on, years ago when I lived in N.Ca and played in different rooms all the time it sure wasn't as important, now out side my table I'm weak.

Point is that it isn't a permeant thing-anyone can get used to traveling around or the opposite become a one table player. it's just a matter of working at it to get what you want. There is zero doubt Jett can play top speed banks anywhere with a few trips back to back. JA told me worst case it takes him about 4 hours at the most to adjust to any equipment and he is at 90%+. that's faster than most players I'm sure as he is JA and been everywhere for 25 years and going. Takes me a couple weeks to adjust if there is a big difference from my box.


Best
Eric


Freddy I mite be reddy thus year. :)
...waiting for you with bells on my toes and a ring in my nose (In case I go off).

Beard
 

urbanlegend

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Hi Freddy,

I would like to clear a few things up. i'll try my best to be succinct.

Please keep in mind I say these things with the utmost respect:

There wasn't much to this match Freddy. Jet came down to Cincinnati to play a little bank pool. This didn't take too much thought to get them in the box playing. There wasn't a great need to "move' and there certainly wasn't the "hostile" environment you are describing. We gave them three tables to choose from, and from what I am told that's more than we would get if we drove to Chicago to play. Mike Meddley, owner of Michael's Billiards runs one of the finest rooms in the country and he takes pride in making things right for all players, stakers and even the rail. He also ensures that all of his equipment is in top condition. When we were discussing what table this was going to be played on I did refuse one table that Jet requested because it had buckets. If Shannon is going to be beaten, the player will have to shoot straight.
I think you have reacted this way because your prote'ge' booked a loser. I hope we can schedule a rematch soon and i would like you there to manage your horse.
 

fred bentivegna

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Missed my point

Missed my point

urbanlegend said:
Hi Freddy,

I would like to clear a few things up. i'll try my best to be succinct.

Please keep in mind I say these things with the utmost respect:

There wasn't much to this match Freddy. Jet came down to Cincinnati to play a little bank pool. This didn't take too much thought to get them in the box playing. There wasn't a great need to "move' and there certainly wasn't the "hostile" environment you are describing. We gave them three tables to choose from, and from what I am told that's more than we would get if we drove to Chicago to play. Mike Meddley, owner of Michael's Billiards runs one of the finest rooms in the country and he takes pride in making things right for all players, stakers and even the rail. He also ensures that all of his equipment is in top condition. When we were discussing what table this was going to be played on I did refuse one table that Jet requested because it had buckets. If Shannon is going to be beaten, the player will have to shoot straight.
I think you have reacted this way because your prote'ge' booked a loser. I hope we can schedule a rematch soon and i would like you there to manage your horse.

You took what I said the wrong way. I harbor no ill feelings toward you, Shannon, or the pool room. You'all sound like a good bunch of guys. "Hostile" environment was just an exaggerated play on words to indicate that the sweators, at least most of them, would be pulling for Shannon and that Jet would be playing away from home. That's just how I talk. Eddie had nothing but praise for Michael's Billiards. Sounds like a great joint. Give Michael my regards. Eddie and Jet had a great time -- except for losing. The difference with me is I wouldn't have gone down there to have a good time, I would have gone down there to do whatever it took to win. I am not a gentleman pool player. That is, unless I am playing someone I can rob. If I get down with a champion I do not budge an inch, insofar as managing the match. I will try and get as much in my favor as I possibly can. If you ever gambled with Ronnie Allen, Artie B, Jack Cooney, Billy Incardona, etc., you would understand where I am coming from. I don't believe in giving up my cherry easily. Sorry, that's just the way I was brought up. If you and I ever gambled we would probably get along terrifically --- after the match.

Beard

Two final points: You are correct about not having choice of tables, if and when you came to Red Shoes. Front table period.
Point two: Ed told me that your side had agreed to play 2 sets for 2k each, but when they arrived your side could only come up with 2k instead of 4. So that the first 2 sets were only for a thousand each. Was that true?

Just got off the phone with Ed. He told me that he only lost 2k total. The first 2 sets were for 1k, and the last one was for 2k which Jet lost. Ed lost 2k not 4500.
 
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usblues

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cool

cool

Nice post Urbanlegend. And interesting also.Freddie has a winner which is very rare in this game.Hope to see this hall in Ohio one day you speak so highly of,cheers,B
 

urbanlegend

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Two final points: You are correct about not having choice of tables, if and when you came to Red Shoes. Front table period.
Point two: Ed told me that your side had agreed to play 2 sets for 2k each, but when they arrived your side could only come up with 2k instead of 4. So that the first 2 sets were only for a thousand each. Was that true?[/QUOTE]


Point 1. That would be fine
Point 2. You are correct. We had two other individuals with some extremely deep pockets that own their own companies that cleared their schedule for Weds. Eddie and Jet switched to Tuesday making it impossible for them to come and bet. I told Eddie,(through a middle-man..my mistake) that we would bet 4k for sure. But when they changed days everything fell apart on our end. In reality, we saved Eddie a lot of money because the bet would have been covered no matter what. I won't get into what they were willing to post but it was significant.

Again, I mean no disrespect and I am looking forward to getting a re-match scheduled soon.
 

urbanlegend

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Jet didn't bet at all as far as I know. There was a gentleman from KY that bet 2k on the side. After watching Shannon win 5-0 the first set I took my wife to dinner and came back to the room around 3-0 in the 3rd set. So things got a little interesting while I was gone to say the least.
 

fred bentivegna

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No disrespect taken

No disrespect taken

urbanlegend said:
Two final points: You are correct about not having choice of tables, if and when you came to Red Shoes. Front table period.
Point two: Ed told me that your side had agreed to play 2 sets for 2k each, but when they arrived your side could only come up with 2k instead of 4. So that the first 2 sets were only for a thousand each. Was that true?

Point 1. That would be fine
Point 2. You are correct. We had two other individuals with some extremely deep pockets that own their own companies that cleared their schedule for Weds. Eddie and Jet switched to Tuesday making it impossible for them to come and bet. I told Eddie,(through a middle-man..my mistake) that we would bet 4k for sure. But when they changed days everything fell apart on our end. In reality, we saved Eddie a lot of money because the bet would have been covered no matter what. I won't get into what they were willing to post but it was significant.

Again, I mean no disrespect and I am looking forward to getting a re-match scheduled soon.[/QUOTE]

None taken. Their early arrival explains the shortage of front money. You have no idea what I would have to go thru to play with Cardone, Artie, Cooney. They gave no quarter when we played. Plus, we have all been lifelong friends by the way. Not so much when we competed tho.
I once laid a trap for Jack Cooney. I waited until he had been up for 2 days playing in Detroit. I came in fresh as a daisy just as he was quitting his game.
I knew he was still pilled up and not ready to go to bed, so I made a game with him. I dead broke him of course. However, after emptying him, I took him and Barbara back to Chicago to live with me for a few months. That's just how we did things then, it was nothing personal.

Beard

I cant help being an old dinosaur.
 

urbanlegend

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Freddy, Shannon and I are lookin' at making a trip to Chicago in the near future and would like to see ya there. I'll buy the first round. But, as you've alluded in your recent posts, we're be there to get the dough. I'll be in touch. Take care
 

fred bentivegna

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Allright!

Allright!

urbanlegend said:
Freddy, Shannon and I are lookin' at making a trip to Chicago in the near future and would like to see ya there. I'll buy the first round. But, as you've alluded in your recent posts, we're be there to get the dough. I'll be in touch. Take care

That's the spirit, Urbanlegend!
See you there.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Addendum

Addendum

Just watched a history special and it put into words my approach to tough action.

It was about Sun Tsu and, The Art of War. Among other insights this stood out to me re this match. Sun Tsu said 2500 yrs ago, "Some ground should not be contested." That made me think about why Jet shouldnt have picked the tough table to play on. It also explained why road players were so unsuccessful trying to win playing in the old Bensingers. Jet may have had a chance to find a table that would have been more conducive to his game at Michaels Billiards, but in Bensingers there was no table that a road man could find refuge in. Every table, tho level, was still a death trap.

Beard
 

urbanlegend

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Agreed. I like reading up on that type of stuff too and this came to mind:

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious."

Disclaimer: In all honesty, I googled it then copy and pasted. Guilty
 

vapros

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Every table, tho level, was still a death trap.

Beard[/QUOTE]

Freddie, you have said this more than once before, but I don't understand. Are you saying the rails were in bad shape? Were the locals tough to beat because they knew where the dead spots were? What was their edge? What makes a level table a death trap? :confused:
 

SJDinPHX

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Every table, tho level, was still a death trap.

Beard
Freddie, you have said this more than once before, but I don't understand. Are you saying the rails were in bad shape? Were the locals tough to beat because they knew where the dead spots were? What was their edge? What makes a level table a death trap? :confused:
V-man...Heres another quote from the "Art of War"..."He, who questions those who talk in riddles, shall himself remain forever confounded"

(Actually, I just made that up...not bad eh ???)..;)
 

SJDinPHX

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vapros said:
That's mighty profound, duck. Are you part Chinese? :p
Around here "being Chinese" is slang for being drunk... So yes, I guess I am usually at least part Chinese...:D

PS I will go to any length to hi-jack a "Bank Pool" thread !!!.:cool: Sorry Urbanlegend, YOU seem like a decent sort. (watch out for the "death traps" though ! :p)
 
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fred bentivegna

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The actual quote

The actual quote

vapros said:
Every table, tho level, was still a death trap.

Beard
Freddie, you have said this more than once before, but I don't understand. Are you saying the rails were in bad shape? Were the locals tough to beat because they knew where the dead spots were? What was their edge? What makes a level table a death trap? :confused:[/QUOTE]


The actual quote from an earlier post on this thread was:
"The tables were all level of course. Just tough."

But to address your death trap point, I was talking mostly about the 5 x 10s. Do you have any idea how hard it was to walk in and try to play on a 5 x 10 in the 60s and 70s? Maybe back in the 30s and 40s when every room had 5 x 10s it wouldn't have been as strong. The only 4 1/2 x 9 that was played on was table 24. It had very deep wells, small pockets, slow cushions and slow cloth. The balls didnt open up very easy either. They had to be bashed open. Plus it took a monster stroke to move the cue ball around the table.
The bottom line is we could run balls on them and our oppo's couldnt.

Beard
Thow in low oxygen level and little air conditioning....
Grady summed Bensingers up the best with this quote:
"Dank air and musty netherworld,"
 

Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
The actual quote from an earlier post on this thread was:
"The tables were all level of course. Just tough."

But to address your death trap point, I was talking mostly about the 5 x 10s. Do you have any idea how hard it was to walk in and try to play on a 5 x 10 in the 60s and 70s? Maybe back in the 30s and 40s when every room had 5 x 10s it wouldn't have been as strong. The only 4 1/2 x 9 that was played on was table 24. It had very deep wells, small pockets, slow cushions and slow cloth. The balls didnt open up very easy either. They had to be bashed open. Plus it took a monster stroke to move the cue ball around the table.
The bottom line is we could run balls on them and our oppo's couldnt.

Beard
I've played on two 5X10 pool tables. The tight one at the Rack was impossibly tough for me at the time (early 80's) but I still managed to gamble on it once. I even gave up 8-6. That table was so tight that if you looked down the long rail at the corner pocket you could see that if a ball rolling down that way came off the rail, even slightly, it would not go in. What a weapon that table would be if it was your home table.

The Rack also had a big pocket 5X10 along the back wall but I never saw a point to playing on that one.

Playing on the tight 5X10 was almost like playing on a snooker table except you could run some balls if you got in close, for me anyway.

Freddy, were there any big games on that 5X10 at the Rack that you remember?

Dennis
 
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