Is this kick the correct shot?

iusedtoberich

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Dec 31, 2004
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Only one ball left on the table...

Is the correct shot here a 2 rail kick to go for the win? Cueball returns somewhere in the area of point A. Is this only good when the ball is in a big position, say .25 to 1 inch off the end rail? As long as you hit the ball, is there any way to really sell out? Thanks.

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One Pocket Ghost

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As you referenced/queried in the second part of your question - I only like the shot when it's laying real good....However, that said, I would prefer lower and narrower parameters than the ones you suggested.....To make the ball, I would like the object ball to be lying between 1/8th and 1/2 of an inch off of the rail....

....And sure you can always sell out - just hit the shot real bad ^_^

There was 0 action at the poolroom, so the Ghost is back home haunting the forum.
 

gulfportdoc

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iusedtoberich said:
Only one ball left on the table...

Is the correct shot here a 2 rail kick to go for the win? Cueball returns somewhere in the area of point A. Is this only good when the ball is in a big position, say .25 to 1 inch off the end rail? As long as you hit the ball, is there any way to really sell out? Thanks.
I think it's a good shot if the shooter has a real good feel for two rail kicks. Otherwise, if the ball is hit fairly thick after the first rail, it's probably going to sell-out a cross side bank. Likewise if the ball is hit too full even off the second rail. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with this shot. I'd prefer to bat the ball away up in the opposite corner, and stick the cueball on the rail. Let the other guy make the mistake.

Doc
 

senor

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iusedtoberich said:
Only one ball left on the table...

Is the correct shot here a 2 rail kick to go for the win? Cueball returns somewhere in the area of point A. Is this only good when the ball is in a big position, say .25 to 1 inch off the end rail? As long as you hit the ball, is there any way to really sell out? Thanks.
Like OPG said, if the shot is laying right, I shoot it every time. Use the mirror method, compensate a few inches for the spin you have to use. Need to practice to make sure you never hit the ball off of one rail. That is the only way you will sell out. Even if you don't hit the object ball, it's better than hitting it off of one rail as the cue ball travels 3 or 4 rails to a safe position.
 

Mike

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If you're mad at your money then shoot the shot. As stated above there are too many things that could go wrong. If you miss the ball completely you may leave a free shot on the ball you have to spot, if you hit it thinly you may scratch in the side or corner, and if you hit it going in you may leave a bank, and if you don't do any of the above and don't make it you give your opponent a chance to put you in a tough spot with a return shot. I agree with knocking it away and letting the other guy make the mistake. Unforced errors are a BIG factor in one-pocket.
 

NH Steve

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I actually like the shot, and feel like I hit it pretty well (in fact it came up last night and I happened to hit it perfect and it went).

That said, it definitely carries risk. Of course, the closer it is to your opponent's pocket, the easier it is to hit well. I like it between the diamond and their pocket.

Hit it too fat and you are very likely to give up some kind of bank, yet try to err on the thin side and you could miss the whole ball or scratch up table. Even though about the worst offense in the end game is a pocket scratch, I try to err on the thin side when I shoot it.

I think the standard safety would be to use top right, sending the ball three rails towards side pocket 'A' (but not hard enough to make it to pocket A) -- right :) ?

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scotttheshooter

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Mike said:
If you're mad at your money then shoot the shot. As stated above there are too many things that could go wrong. If you miss the ball completely you may leave a free shot on the ball you have to spot, if you hit it thinly you may scratch in the side or corner, and if you hit it going in you may leave a bank, and if you don't do any of the above and don't make it you give your opponent a chance to put you in a tough spot with a return shot. I agree with knocking it away and letting the other guy make the mistake. Unforced errors are a BIG factor in one-pocket.
How a player shoots this shot speaks directly to the personality and tendencies of that particular player. A key factor in the analysis and decision would have to be how does the opponent bank and how is the session going at that point in time.
 

jrhendy

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scotttheshooter said:
How a player shoots this shot speaks directly to the personality and tendencies of that particular player. A key factor in the analysis and decision would have to be how does the opponent bank and how is the session going at that point in time.
Another key factor (with me anyway) is how much I am stuck.
 

scotttheshooter

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jrhendy said:
Another key factor (with me anyway) is how much I am stuck.
Exactly...that is certainly part of "how the session is going."

With all that being said - I see those shots pretty good and, unless the guy has me playing ultra conservative, I'll kick at it 75% of the time using severe inside (right) english making sure that if I miss it - its on the thin side.

This particular shot happens to be one I practice and like a lot.

Of course - I liked Bill Clinton a lot too!:eek:
 

senor

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iusedtoberich said:
Only one ball left on the table...

Is the correct shot here a 2 rail kick to go for the win? Cueball returns somewhere in the area of point A. Is this only good when the ball is in a big position, say .25 to 1 inch off the end rail? As long as you hit the ball, is there any way to really sell out? Thanks.
Seems to be a pretty even split, nothing wrong with not shooting the ball, but when you get a shot to win, and your comfortable shooting the shot, why not?

In response to Mike saying if the object ball is completely missed, a spot shot might be sold out, I think if you practice the shot a little more, you'll find that it's difficult to hit the cue ball so badly that it actually goes far enough to sell that spot shot. You have to hit the shot hard, whereas executing the kick shot requires more touch than force.

I'm not going to say I've never shot the kick w/o terrible results (others mentioned it may be harder to shoot when stuck, I agree), but I also tend to not wait for my opponent to dog it, unless I'm giving up 10-6 or more, then I know they will dog it, and dog it more than one time a game.
 

suki

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Correct me if I am wrong(never, lol)

Correct me if I am wrong(never, lol)

scotttheshooter said:
Exactly...that is certainly part of "how the session is going."

With all that being said - I see those shots pretty good and, unless the guy has me playing ultra conservative, I'll kick at it 75% of the time using severe inside (right) english making sure that if I miss it - its on the thin side.

This particular shot happens to be one I practice and like a lot.

Of course - I liked Bill Clinton a lot too!:eek:
The way the diagram is laidout I think you mean left english? Right from the other side of table.
 

scotttheshooter

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I Do Mean Right English.....

I Do Mean Right English.....

I do mean right english - but you definitely must play it on the thin side.

In fact - I set up the shot 10 times during lunch with the following results..

Missed the object 2 times but definitely left the cue ball safe -

Almost kicked it in 3 times - cueball ended up down table with no shot left -

Kicked it in 2 times -

Hit it too full and left makeable bank 3 times.

I'll have to try it with left english.

Visually - that shot looks good to me. However - there are many shots that other guys jump all over - but I can't see them so I just don't play that shot.

I am a very visual player (in golf also).

Jack Nicklaus always said if he can't see and feel a shot - he won't play it. He even wrote that he sees his golf ball in flight, sees it land on the green and even see how many times it bounces the ball takes before it rolls to a stop!
 

suki

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Wow

Wow

scotttheshooter said:
I do mean right english - but you definitely must play it on the thin side.

In fact - I set up the shot 10 times during lunch with the following results..

Missed the object 2 times but definitely left the cue ball safe -

Almost kicked it in 3 times - cueball ended up down table with no shot left -

Kicked it in 2 times -

Hit it too full and left makeable bank 3 times.

I'll have to try it with left english.

Visually - that shot looks good to me. However - there are many shots that other guys jump all over - but I can't see them so I just don't play that shot.

I am a very visual player (in golf also).

Jack Nicklaus always said if he can't see and feel a shot - he won't play it. He even wrote that he sees his golf ball in flight, sees it land on the green and even see how many times it bounces the ball takes before it rolls to a stop!
The idea of the shot is to spin that object ball in. Using right english, and holding the cue ball up after the first rail is way more dangerous than "spinning" the cue ball which is what I think most of these posters are saying they do when shooting this shot. I have been playing one pocket 55 years and never even thought of ever using reverse english for that shot. Thats is definitely why you could only make it twice.
Have you ever shot balls directly that sit just off rail. You spin cue ball onto rail then hit object ball to spin ball in. Same idea with illustrated shot.
 

scotttheshooter

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What Can I Say --- ??

What Can I Say --- ??

I understand what you are saying. You can shoot that shot any way you want to shoot it but....I always shoot the shot using that english as a way to not necessarily make the ball as often - but to have a decent shot at making the ball while still playing the cue ball safe.

Please remember that my decision to even shoot a shot of that nature (as compared to playing safe) is predicated on many factors. Most likely - if I'm playing a man with 50 plus years of 1P experience and have a tough game on my hands - I play safe.:)

I'll shoot the shot tomorrow with the other english and take note of the results.
 
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NH Steve

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scotttheshooter said:
I understand what you are saying. You can shoot that shot any way you want to shoot it but....I always shoot the shot using that english as a way to not necessarily make the ball as often - but to have a decent shot at making the ball while still playing the cue ball safe.

Please remember that my decision to even shoot a shot of that nature (as compared to playing safe) is predicated on many factors. Most likely - if I'm playing a man with 50 plus years of 1P experience and have a tough game on my hands - I play safe.:)

I'll shoot the shot tomorrow with the other english and take note of the results.
I think you will like the results :)
 

scotttheshooter

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New Shot For Me

New Shot For Me

I set up the shot with that "alien english" and certainly got different results. I kicked the ball in a few more times but felt like I was letting lose of Mr. Cueball - part of that has to be just because I haven't played the shot that w/that english. I like it and feel like I added another bullet to my bandoleer (sp?).

*I'm supposed to go to a hangout here in town this evening that is frequented on a regular basis by San Jose Dick McMoran. I'll ask him about that shot. I hate to do that because the last time I asked him about a shot he said - "The only way I'd shoot that shot was if I was playing you!!! Ha Ha:eek: "
 

suki

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????

????

scotttheshooter said:
I set up the shot with that "alien english" and certainly got different results. I kicked the ball in a few more times but felt like I was letting lose of Mr. Cueball - part of that has to be just because I haven't played the shot that w/that english. I like it and feel like I added another bullet to my bandoleer (sp?).

*I'm supposed to go to a hangout here in town this evening that is frequented on a regular basis by San Jose Dick McMoran. I'll ask him about that shot. I hate to do that because the last time I asked him about a shot he said - "The only way I'd shoot that shot was if I was playing you!!! Ha Ha:eek: "
Is that "the" San Jose Dick who was a famous gambler in San Jose some 30 years ago? They used to confuse me with him at times in the old days.
 

scotttheshooter

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Yes It Is....!

Yes It Is....!

suki said:
Is that "the" San Jose Dick who was a famous gambler in San Jose some 30 years ago? They used to confuse me with him at times in the old days.
Dick has lived here for quite a while and still plays a little. Up until maybe 3 or 4 years ago - he played well enough to give the young guys a tough game. There was a 6 x 12 snooker table at the room where he regularly went and he played a lot of "golf." He was masterful at that game.

I've seen an Accustats tape of him playing Cliff Joyner and I believe he either beat him or at least made him work hard for the win.
 

suki

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??????

??????

[QUOTtE=scotttheshooter]Dick has lived here for quite a while and still plays a little. Up until maybe 3 or 4 years ago - he played well enough to give the young guys a tough game. There was a 6 x 12 snooker table at the room where he regularly went and he played a lot of "golf." He was masterful at that game.

I've seen an Accustats tape of him playing Cliff Joyner and I believe he either beat him or at least made him work hard for the win.[/QUOTE]

Great but I don't khow where "here is" since you don't post your city.
Thanks
 

scotttheshooter

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San Jose Dick..

San Jose Dick..

Suki....

Sorry - been out of town with my real life job.

"Here" is Phoenix, Arizona.

I used to see him playing quite a bit 18 months or so ago. Between work and the part of town where that room is being a long way away from where I live, I just lost track. I ran into a long time Phoenix player late last week and he said Dick hadn't picked up a cue for a least a year.

Re: Accustat Tape

An acquaintance of mine says Dick actually beat Joyner. He also said that Buddy Hall was one of the commentators and said that Dick played 1P as well as anybody and, even though he wasn't a household name, Joyner had his hands full because Dick was going to put on a "moving fiesta..". I'm supposed to be able to borrow that tape this weekend.
 
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