Is Fats a fit?

lll

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if rudolf wanderone as "minnesota fats" is one of the 2 people anyone on the street would name as a pool player doesnt that give him a mulligan even to those of youu who dont thiink his playing skill deserves it.???
 

Cowboy Dennis

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androd said:
Dennis, I asked Marcel Camp,(most here won't know of him) a guy I thought should be nominated to the HOF if he could beat FATS.
His answer was "Ive beaten him a couple of times but he's beaten me many more. He once won my brand new convertible in a little town in the midwest."
Rod.
PS, In the middle 60's in houston he beat Johnny "Cannonball" Chapman and U.J. "Utley" Puckett playing both even. FYI Cannonball is in the bank pool HOF.

Rod,

This is from "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies". Not word for word but accurate nonetheless.

Fats speaking:

The top poolplayers for the cash were myself, James Evans and Marcel Camp. We never needed any backers because we always played for our own gold. Andrew St. Jean and Rudolph and Ponzi and Chick Seaback and Arthur Woods and a few other old-timers would roll high, but they always needed financial assistance. They were all tremendous players who excelled at every game on the table, but when it came to doing it for the cash, I was the daddy of them all.

Marcel Camp was, and still is a tremendous money player. The first time I met Camp was in Detroit in the thirties, and we played one-pocket, banks, three-cushion, rotation, and straight pool for days and nights without stopping. Sometimes Marcel wouldn't miss a ball, but he always went home broke. Gambling is funny that way.

Camp made a trip down south in the thirties and got real adjusted to those four-by-eight tables down there, and then he sent the word around so I would know where he was playing. So I got in my Cadillac and headed for Edenton, North Carolina, where he was giving exhibitions, and when I hit town, all I saw were posters of Marcel advertising his appearance.

So I walked in this room and said, "Why Marcel, isn't this nice running into you down here?" Marcel, who is kind of heavy like me, shilled in perfect, and the suckers loved the dialogue so much they stayed around for days and nights watching the one-pocket action. It was nip and tuck, but in the end Marcel won all the cash, because what happened was the small table killed me dead. Marcel said he would see me in Philadelphia in a few weeks and we would get the show on the road again.

Now, Marcel took all that cash he won in Edenton and bought himself the most tremendous Buick automobile you ever laid eyes on, and when he drove to Philadelphia about a month later, he really came to town like a multi. So now we're on Big Bertha, which is what I call those five-by-tens, and Marcel is having trouble adjusting back to the big table, and I belted him out so brutal, I felt like a sadist. Finally I busted him smack down to his last quarter and then I said, "Marcel, I'll play you for the car." He said that would be just fine; so then I won the Buick too. Marcel handed over the keys and the title to the car and he walked out of the room the way Jimmy Durante used to exit on those t.v. jolts, but just as he got to the door I yelled: "Marcel, you came to Philadelphia a motorist but I made a pedestrian out of you."

Dennis
 

lfigueroa

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fred bentivegna said:

Was Richie half drunk the whole THIRTY (30) DAYS they played, and wasnt smart enough to sober up before he blew the whole $40,000 giving Fatty 8 to 7?



In Grissim's book, "Billiards," Richie seems to acknowledge a $20K loss to Fats, vice $40K.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

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lfigueroa said:
In Grissim's book, "Billiards," Richie seems to acknowledge a $20K loss to Fats, vice $40K.

Lou Figueroa

I'll pull an Artie (even though no one seems to care, perusing some of these books I haven't picked up in a while is fun, nonetheless). Also from Grissim:

"The way people in the game talk, you'd think Minnesota Fats can't make a ball. 'Don't get me wrong,' says pool patriarch Fred Whalen, who in the early 70's sponsored several world invitational tournaments. 'Fats has done more for pool than any man alive. But I paid him to come to Hollywood to do some exhibition shots during one invitational and he couldn't do nothin'. He couldn't make nothin'. I mean Fats really never could play but I was surprised to see how bad he really was. He couldn't make the shots. He'd miss a trick shot and then talk, just kept talking while missing one shot after another.'

Fats was pretty bad. During that three-night stand he missed way too many shots he should have had down cold. But he told some great stories, mostly episodes in which he had relieved some monikered heavy on his bankroll.

The fat one's habit of mixing hot air with a cold stick doesn't surprise Jack Briet, alias Jersey Red, the Raider or the Raidin' Red Rooster, depending on what part of the country he's in. Jack is also one of the all-time great one-pocket players. 'People get hot because Fats says he beat 'em -- guys like Irving Crane and Wimpy Lassiter. I say 'Give him a call for a money game.' I've beat Fats all my life. I used to play him one pocket on a five by ten, give him the seven, and beat him. Hell, I gave him the seven and the break and bar-be-qued him. But if he says he beat me playing me eight to six, that don't bother me. He can't beat me but so what if he says he did? He's good for the game.'"

Lou Figueroa
 

P00lh0li0

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Maybe you guys can make a 1P Meritorious Service part for Fats like they did on the BCA HOF?

Fats was the only pool player I ever knew as a little kid. I found out about the game of 1p from reading his Bank Shots book and bank pool from one of his tapes. I even have Fatty's obit from the LA Times. Of course, guys like Grady, Beard, etc expanded my knowledge of 1p and bank pool before 1p.org.
 

fred bentivegna

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Gee, was Grissim there? No? I was.

Gee, was Grissim there? No? I was.

lfigueroa said:
In Grissim's book, "Billiards," Richie seems to acknowledge a $20K loss to Fats, vice $40K.

Lou Figueroa
How come everbody else is the authority on so many of the things that I personally attended? It's starting to make me feel, soooo insignificant. Now I know how Columbus must feel with the Libs rewritting all the history books.

Here's a little link for you to peruse whereby Richie puts the number lost at $52,000. Pool players always exaggerate a little when being interviewed.

http://www.tropicanabowlingalley.com/richie.html

Beard

Sometimes you birds cite R A Dyer. He's a great writer and a nice fellow, but did you know he calls me?
 

fred bentivegna

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Now youre exposing your ignorance

Now youre exposing your ignorance

lfigueroa said:
I'll pull an Artie (even though no one seems to care, perusing some of these books I haven't picked up in a while is fun, nonetheless). Also from Grissim:

"The way people in the game talk, you'd think Minnesota Fats can't make a ball. 'Don't get me wrong,' says pool patriarch Fred Whalen, who in the early 70's sponsored several world invitational tournaments. 'Fats has done more for pool than any man alive. But I paid him to come to Hollywood to do some exhibition shots during one invitational and he couldn't do nothin'. He couldn't make nothin'. I mean Fats really never could play but I was surprised to see how bad he really was. He couldn't make the shots. He'd miss a trick shot and then talk, just kept talking while missing one shot after another.'

Fats was pretty bad. During that three-night stand he missed way too many shots he should have had down cold. But he told some great stories, mostly episodes in which he had relieved some monikered heavy on his bankroll.

The fat one's habit of mixing hot air with a cold stick doesn't surprise Jack Briet, alias Jersey Red, the Raider or the Raidin' Red Rooster, depending on what part of the country he's in. Jack is also one of the all-time great one-pocket players. 'People get hot because Fats says he beat 'em -- guys like Irving Crane and Wimpy Lassiter. I say 'Give him a call for a money game.' I've beat Fats all my life. I used to play him one pocket on a five by ten, give him the seven, and beat him. Hell, I gave him the seven and the break and bar-be-qued him. But if he says he beat me playing me eight to six, that don't bother me. He can't beat me but so what if he says he did? He's good for the game.'"

Lou Figueroa
"When you know not of what your speak...." Anybody who really knew the Gangster Fred Whalen, and was aware of the flame wars of those times between the traditional straight pool players, one of whom was Fred Whalen -- and he was a 100 ball runner, and the dirty, seedy, Onepocket players like Fats, knew that in those days straight pool players were almost unanimous in their opinion that if you didnt play straight pool you werent much of a pool player. A lot of that came from the Onepocket hustlers whacking out the straight pool gentleman when they were dumb enough to fall for that game.

As per Jersey Red. Knew him for 40 yrs. I loved him. We were great pals and didnt even play each other, but Red's pool adventures (like so many of the old timers, not me of course.) had a habit of being somewhat expanded to fit the situation. Can anyone recall Red ever reciting an instance where he got strummed? The closest thing to that is when he talks about how good Eddie Taylor played on the 5 x 10's when he came to NY. He leaves out the fact that Taylor gave him 10 to 8 on one.

the Beard

I know, I know, nobody likes an, "I told you so, and a know-it-all." Forgive me for my ...
 

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
SBL,

Yeah, I noticed that too. I figured you were bugging my computer to stay one step ahead of me.

Gotta go now, I'm getting ready to watch Michael Corleone whack out Virgil Solozzo and Captain McCluskey.

SJD, don't let this happen to you:) .

RBL

Looney,

Why don't you watch something worthwhile...Like the DVD I sent you, of my grandpa match with "Circus Tom" and "Conneticut Jim" ?.... You might learn something.:cool:

PS..I should send a copy to Fred...he would eat his heart out, or die laughing at me. (either way he would be mercifully silenced).:eek:
3 easy payments of $39.95, Fred...PayPal only please (same day shipping...add $8.95)
 
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androd

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fred bentivegna said:
As per Jersey Red. Knew him for 40 yrs. I loved him. We were great pals and didnt even play each other, but Red's pool adventures (like so many of the old timers, not me of course.) had a habit of being somewhat expanded to fit the situation. Can anyone recall Red ever reciting an instance where he got strummed? The closest thing to that is when he talks about how good Eddie Taylor played on the 5 x 10's when he came to NY. He leaves out the fact that Taylor gave him 10 to 8 on one.

the Beard

I know, I know, nobody likes an, "I told you so, and a know-it-all." Forgive me for my ...
Fred; RED told me after playing Taylor a couple of games, he(RED) was trying to find a way to leave the CB under the table (5X10). He thought Taylor was the best.
Rod.
PS, Red dearly loved Fats.
 

fred bentivegna

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Me too

Me too

androd said:
Fred; RED told me after playing Taylor a couple of games, he(RED) was trying to find a way to leave the CB under the table (5X10). He thought Taylor was the best.
Rod.
PS, Red dearly loved Fats.
I thought so too about Taylor. Of course Red loved Fats. Good to hear that you knew Marcel Camp. A great character and a great money player. Whatever bankroll Camp had, he had every bit of it in his pocket. When he had gotten lucky at the track, he might have from 10k to 25k in his pocket.
He, unlike Fats, was also not a very snappy dresser. He wore a suit all the time, but it was made by Dunlap. "Done all it could, and now its lapping over." You could clock his bankroll by his dress habits. A new shirt meant 5k. New shoes was 10k plus, minimum. He could also eat Fats' speed. He got himself barred from every pitch-till-you-win, all-you-can-eat, joints in South Florida. Once, him and Fat Wes (450lbs) walked into one of those buffet joints and didnt get past the front door. The owner told Camp, "You've got to be kidding." Bottom line, is he deserves HOF, but it probably wont ever happen. Thats why I'm so insistant about Fats, because his peers, Gene Skinner and Camp have little chance of making it.

the Beard

Bottom left:Gene Skinner
 

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Skin

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fred bentivegna said:
"When you know not of what your speak...." Anybody who really knew the Gangster Fred Whalen, and was aware of the flame wars of those times between the traditional straight pool players, one of whom was Fred Whalen -- and he was a 100 ball runner, and the dirty, seedy, Onepocket players like Fats, knew that in those days straight pool players were almost unanimous in their opinion that if you didnt play straight pool you werent much of a pool player. A lot of that came from the Onepocket hustlers whacking out the straight pool gentleman when they were dumb enough to fall for that game.

As per Jersey Red. Knew him for 40 yrs. I loved him. We were great pals and didnt even play each other, but Red's pool adventures (like so many of the old timers, not me of course.) had a habit of being somewhat expanded to fit the situation. Can anyone recall Red ever reciting an instance where he got strummed? The closest thing to that is when he talks about how good Eddie Taylor played on the 5 x 10's when he came to NY. He leaves out the fact that Taylor gave him 10 to 8 on one.

the Beard

I know, I know, nobody likes an, "I told you so, and a know-it-all." Forgive me for my ...
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk. - Hegel

Rather than plucking Shakespearean lines devoid of their context from an internet insult site in order to look erudite as Lou does, I thought I'd pluck Hegel from a book I read as an undergraduate to not insult. The problem is the same, of course, as most refined thinkers would immediately notice. As with a nipple grafted to the groin during a mastectomy, a beautiful thing removed from its natural context may become quite bizarre and meaningless. The shared natural reaction to it can only be "Eeeewwweee!" .

Lou does just fine when he copies others' words and leaves them standing on their own. No thinking is involved there. That is when he is at his best. But as soon as he impresses his interpretation on them, all is lost. He is with his own words like a man trying to run 10 balls who can't get there for knocking so many off the table. :-}

Skin
 
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fred bentivegna

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Precious

Precious

Cowboy Dennis said:
Rod,

This is from "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies". Not word for word but accurate nonetheless.

Fats speaking:

The top poolplayers for the cash were myself, James Evans and Marcel Camp. We never needed any backers because we always played for our own gold. Andrew St. Jean and Rudolph and Ponzi and Chick Seaback and Arthur Woods and a few other old-timers would roll high, but they always needed financial assistance. They were all tremendous players who excelled at every game on the table, but when it came to doing it for the cash, I was the daddy of them all.

Marcel Camp was, and still is a tremendous money player. The first time I met Camp was in Detroit in the thirties, and we played one-pocket, banks, three-cushion, rotation, and straight pool for days and nights without stopping. Sometimes Marcel wouldn't miss a ball, but he always went home broke. Gambling is funny that way.

Camp made a trip down south in the thirties and got real adjusted to those four-by-eight tables down there, and then he sent the word around so I would know where he was playing. So I got in my Cadillac and headed for Edenton, North Carolina, where he was giving exhibitions, and when I hit town, all I saw were posters of Marcel advertising his appearance.

So I walked in this room and said, "Why Marcel, isn't this nice running into you down here?" Marcel, who is kind of heavy like me, shilled in perfect, and the suckers loved the dialogue so much they stayed around for days and nights watching the one-pocket action. It was nip and tuck, but in the end Marcel won all the cash, because what happened was the small table killed me dead. Marcel said he would see me in Philadelphia in a few weeks and we would get the show on the road again.

Now, Marcel took all that cash he won in Edenton and bought himself the most tremendous Buick automobile you ever laid eyes on, and when he drove to Philadelphia about a month later, he really came to town like a multi. So now we're on Big Bertha, which is what I call those five-by-tens, and Marcel is having trouble adjusting back to the big table, and I belted him out so brutal, I felt like a sadist. Finally I busted him smack down to his last quarter and then I said, "Marcel, I'll play you for the car." He said that would be just fine; so then I won the Buick too. Marcel handed over the keys and the title to the car and he walked out of the room the way Jimmy Durante used to exit on those t.v. jolts, but just as he got to the door I yelled: "Marcel, you came to Philadelphia a motorist but I made a pedestrian out of you."

Dennis

Is that precious or what, Dennis?

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Yikes!

Yikes!

Skin said:
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk. - Hegel

Rather than plucking Shakespearean lines devoid their context from an internet insult site in order to look erudite as Lou does, I thought I'd pluck Hegel from a book I read as an undergraduate to not insult. The problem is the same, of course, as most refined thinkers would immediately notice. As with a nipple transplanted to the groin during a mastectomy, a beautiful thing removed from its natural context may be made quite bizarre and meaningless. The shared natural reaction to it can only be "Eeeewwweee!" .

Lou does just fine when he copies others' words and leaves them standing on their own. No thinking is involved there. That is when he is at his best. But as soon as he impresses his interpretation on them, all is lost. He is with his own words like a man trying to run 10 balls who can't get there for knocking so many off the table. :-}

Skin
Damn Skin, that curdled my blood!

Beard
 

Dudley

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Messages
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Skin said:
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk. - Hegel

Rather than plucking Shakespearean lines devoid of their context from an internet insult site in order to look erudite as Lou does, I thought I'd pluck Hegel from a book I read as an undergraduate to not insult. The problem is the same, of course, as most refined thinkers would immediately notice. As with a nipple grafted to the groin during a mastectomy, a beautiful thing removed from its natural context may become quite bizarre and meaningless. The shared natural reaction to it can only be "Eeeewwweee!" .

Lou does just fine when he copies others' words and leaves them standing on their own. No thinking is involved there. That is when he is at his best. But as soon as he impresses his interpretation on them, all is lost. He is with his own words like a man trying to run 10 balls who can't get there for knocking so many off the table. :-}

Skin
Wow Hegel???

I never thought I would hear that name again.... especially at OP.org

I have a feeling skin is "well read".


Dud
 

demonrho

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Skin said:
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk. - Hegel

Rather than plucking Shakespearean lines devoid of their context from an internet insult site in order to look erudite...
I like to look erudite by plucking my philosophical lines from an internet philosophical site like:
http://www.neatorama.com/2007/02/06/11-most-important-philosophical-quotations/

(My translation of Hegel from the German goes: "The owl of Athena spreads its fertilizer only with the falling of bird droppings." :D )
 

lfigueroa

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Messages
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fred bentivegna said:
How come everbody else is the authority on so many of the things that I personally attended? It's starting to make me feel, soooo insignificant. Now I know how Columbus must feel with the Libs rewritting all the history books.

Here's a little link for you to peruse whereby Richie puts the number lost at $52,000. Pool players always exaggerate a little when being interviewed.

http://www.tropicanabowlingalley.com/richie.html

Beard

Sometimes you birds cite R A Dyer. He's a great writer and a nice fellow, but did you know he calls me?

wow, great article.

But what does RA calling you have to do with anything?

Lou Figueroa
wondering what RA
calls Freddy
 

lfigueroa

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Messages
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fred bentivegna said:
"When you know not of what your speak...." Anybody who really knew the Gangster Fred Whalen, and was aware of the flame wars of those times between the traditional straight pool players, one of whom was Fred Whalen -- and he was a 100 ball runner, and the dirty, seedy, Onepocket players like Fats, knew that in those days straight pool players were almost unanimous in their opinion that if you didnt play straight pool you werent much of a pool player. A lot of that came from the Onepocket hustlers whacking out the straight pool gentleman when they were dumb enough to fall for that game.

As per Jersey Red. Knew him for 40 yrs. I loved him. We were great pals and didnt even play each other, but Red's pool adventures (like so many of the old timers, not me of course.) had a habit of being somewhat expanded to fit the situation. Can anyone recall Red ever reciting an instance where he got strummed? The closest thing to that is when he talks about how good Eddie Taylor played on the 5 x 10's when he came to NY. He leaves out the fact that Taylor gave him 10 to 8 on one.

the Beard

I know, I know, nobody likes an, "I told you so, and a know-it-all." Forgive me for my ...

Well, even though we got takes on Fats from a sheetheel, a gangster, (a guy who apparently calls you "My Sweet Baboo," :) and from you, an interesting picture does begin to emerge of the man. I'm not sure yours is the most accurate portrait... But by hearing what others have to say, we can at least make a more balanced call.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa

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Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
1,860
Skin said:
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk. - Hegel

Rather than plucking Shakespearean lines devoid of their context from an internet insult site in order to look erudite as Lou does, I thought I'd pluck Hegel from a book I read as an undergraduate to not insult. The problem is the same, of course, as most refined thinkers would immediately notice. As with a nipple grafted to the groin during a mastectomy, a beautiful thing removed from its natural context may become quite bizarre and meaningless. The shared natural reaction to it can only be "Eeeewwweee!" .

Lou does just fine when he copies others' words and leaves them standing on their own. No thinking is involved there. That is when he is at his best. But as soon as he impresses his interpretation on them, all is lost. He is with his own words like a man trying to run 10 balls who can't get there for knocking so many off the table. :-}

Skin

lol. You know, I appreciate you being such a fan of mine that you like to constantly come up behind my posts and *try* and dazzle us all with your professorial airs at my expense, but frankly, you remind me of the guy in the bar scene in "Good Will Hunting." You know, the pompous ass trying to impress the girls who gets smacked down by the guy who doesn't have the degree, but is actually the smarter of the two ;-)

Lou Figueroa
hopes Steve
isn't walking the aisles
with his ruler :)
 
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