Is Fats a fit?

lfigueroa

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
1,860
gulfportdoc said:
I did a little more research on the subject of Tevis writing The Hustler. It was written in 1956 while Tevis was both attending Univ. of Kentucky and working at the Kentucky Highway Department. Here is a quote from Tevis regarding the story:

It was written in Bud Guthrie's graduate creative writing class and was called "The Best in the Country". [published in "Esquire"] I've published 13 short stories about pool players in various national magazines and then I published the novel. I stole the title for "The Hustler" from a story I had published in "Playboy", also called "The Hustler", but not really resembling the novel.

I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel.;) He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with one-pocket. If Wanderone deserves to be included, it should be based upon his 1P prowess, or his exceptional promotion of 1P.

Doc


Doc, here is ammo for both sides of the argument, from TH&TC, pages 200-201:

"He (Fats) made this startling claim (being MF) despite never having set foot in Minnesota. Neither was Wanderone a particularly good dresser, and he certainly had none of Gleason's haughty grace."

"Walter Tevis said Fats was a work of fiction -- that he was as real as Donald Duck -- and that if the character resembled anybody, it would be dignified Willie Mosconi."

But further down, on the same page is this:

"The terrible irony, of course, was that Willie Mosconi himself was an unwitting party to what may have been a monstrous deception. In an interview with the Long Beach Independent-Press-Telegram, Mosconi said the Fats character 'was patterned after a real live pool hustler known as New York Fats.' He would regret those words for the rest of his life."

Lou Figueroa
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
9,419
demonrho said:
It’s kind of interesting to think that Robert Rossen, the guy who adapted the book, wrote the screenplay, and directed the movie “The Hustler”, may have actually seen Rudolf Wanderone (Fats) in action way before Walter Tevis would ever have had a chance to. Rossen grew up on the lower east side in NYC and hustled a little pool himself (besides doing a little prizefighting) in the 1920s. Wanderone would have been hustling pool in NYC at roughly the same time. Walter Tevis wasn’t born till the end of the 1920s and grew up in San Francisco.
You bring up an interesting point. I hadn't been aware of Rossen's background. It may be that the film version of The Hustler was much more than equal parts of Rossen/Tevis. I'm grateful that he didn't allow his communist background to leak into that great film.

Doc
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
androd said:
By the way, did the case go to trail or was it settled first ?



Doc, I think con man is a little unfair. He was a hustler, pool and short cards and a promoter, but I've been around a lot of con men and that wasn't him. I agree with Fred, Tevis stole his persona and should have been sued. maybe you know the answer, was the case settled and if so why?
Rod.
Rod

This was all I could find on the alledged suit. Probably just muddies the water a little more.



Minnesota Fats
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the original fictional character. For the real-life pool player who adopted this nickname, see Rudolf Wanderone Jr..
George Hegerman is a fictional pool hustler, better known by the nickname "Minnesota Fats", and featured as a prominent character in Walter Tevis's novels The Hustler and The Color of Money. Actor Jackie Gleason played this part in the 1961 film version of The Hustler, based upon the novel. Gleason was nominated for an Academy Award[1] and a Golden Globe Award[2] for Best Supporting Actor, and was honored as Best Supporting Actor by the National Board of Review of Motion Pictures.[3] The Minnesota Fats character did not appear in the 1986 film version of The Color of Money, which had an entirely different storyline than did the novel.

Real-life professional pool player and entertainer Rudolf Wanderone Jr. was known as "New York Fats" (among other nicknames) when the book was published. He initially wanted to sue but, realizing that there was more money to be made from the success of the book and subsequent movie, changed his nickname to match the fiction. He claimed that the author had based the character upon himself and that a financial settlement had been made to avoid a lawsuit but Walter Tevis has consistently denied this.[4] Rudolf Wanderone then went on to play himself under the name Minnesota Fats in the 1971 movie, The Player.[5]

[edit] References
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
nnsdkk5%#$--3@2

nnsdkk5%#$--3@2

?Allsdfapp,sdf],dkkcnmkjksd;;;ooelllxxx llliislls[ sdk;';aaldkjdiiv,vllsdajja;;,,.skjksd;''
dl;;d;;dllbiie.l4i;d;asd''';v.l;flgkgksdla;;sa;;a'


the Beard

(Am trying a new language, Gibberish. Maybe somebody can read this and finally absorb what I'm trying to say. English aint working too well.)

Incidentally, if Fats gets nominated for some kind of Teachers and Promoters, he wont get my vote. Now for those who didnt get that, I'll be kind and repeat it in Gibberish:
,,aldlkldjeilld' dlldpoanjhadf''' adf;;dkkgkppdkka;;skkcl;;;sdjkpolaeo[pps;;s
dlld;;dflkgfl;;g;;gjjjdiuepope;;dl;1020933$4^^&&8((()0
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Knew about Tom Smith but not Fats

Knew about Tom Smith but not Fats

gulfportdoc said:
.....I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel.;) He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

Doc

Doc, did you just stop reading or did the screen go blank when you came to this part:

"Now to the "Tevis never heard of him." Here below is a link to a Sports Illustrated story about hustlers that mentions New York Fats in an article dated March 1961, seven months BEFORE the first Johnston City tourn. Tevis also knew, and had been to Bensingers as is evidenced by his description of the room in the book. But the strongest case to be made, and no one has even asked me about it, was his knowledge of that shit little pool room on State Street where he writes about the Tom Smith character. I name the date, the place, and the guy, and everybody just blows right past that. This is getting to be like talking to my ex wife. Ignore, deny, and change to subject.
So Tevis knew about an obscure Tom Smith, but Minnesota Fats came to him in a literary apparition. Just because most of you never heard of Tom Smith aint an argument. There are plenty of people still around that did.
"

the Beard
 

Deeman

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
1,333
gulfportdoc said:
You bring up an interesting point. I hadn't been aware of Rossen's background. It may be that the film version of The Hustler was much more than equal parts of Rossen/Tevis. I'm grateful that he didn't allow his communist background to leak into that great film.

Doc

Doc,

Another important point is that the Fats character was much more important and prevalent in the Movie than he ever was in the book. Just as in TCOM, he was not in the movie but a larger part of the book.

I met Fats first when I was a kid in Blytheville, Arkansas and spent a lot of time with him in Nashville near the end of his life. I never knew anyone outside Rudy and fans who did not know better, that claimed he was the original Fats that Tevis would have patterned his character on.

DeeMan
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
fred bentivegna said:
?Allsdfapp,sdf],dkkcnmkjksd;;;ooelllxxx llliislls[ sdk;';aaldkjdiiv,vllsdajja;;,,.skjksd;''
dl;;d;;dllbiie.l4i;d;asd''';v.l;flgkgksdla;;sa;;a'


the Beard

(Am trying a new language, Gibberish. Maybe somebody can read this and finally absorb what I'm trying to say. English aint working too well.)

Incidentally, if Fats gets nominated for some kind of Teachers and Promoters, he wont get my vote. Now for those who didnt get that, I'll be kind and repeat it in Gibberish:
,,aldlkldjeilld' dlldpoanjhadf''' adf;;dkkgkppdkka;;skkcl;;;sdjkpolaeo[pps;;s
dlld;;dflkgfl;;g;;gjjjdiuepope;;dl;1020933$4^^&&8((()0
Now you are starting to make much more sense...Thanks..:D :D :D
 
Last edited:

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
fred bentivegna said:
Doc, did you just stop reading or did the screen go blank when you came to this part:

"Now to the "Tevis never heard of him." Here below is a link to a Sports Illustrated story about hustlers that mentions New York Fats in an article dated March 1961, seven months BEFORE the first Johnston City tourn. Tevis also knew, and had been to Bensingers as is evidenced by his description of the room in the book. But the strongest case to be made, and no one has even asked me about it, was his knowledge of that shit little pool room on State Street where he writes about the Tom Smith character. I name the date, the place, and the guy, and everybody just blows right past that. This is getting to be like talking to my ex wife. Ignore, deny, and change to subject.
So Tevis knew about an obscure Tom Smith, but Minnesota Fats came to him in a literary apparition. Just because most of you never heard of Tom Smith aint an argument. There are plenty of people still around that did.
"

the Beard
Beardman,

I don't understand your unbridled passion, for arguing whether or not, Tevis drew on his "knowing" of Fat's (RW) or simply made up the character.
Rossen (the director) may well have been an influence, as the character of Minnesota Fat's became a key figure in the movie, wheras he was almost a passing character in Tevis' original book. (or his short stories) The story revolved around "Fast Eddie"...remember ?

Your argument ( or ranting) is lost on me, because it is a moot point. Fat's (RW) derived more from "the Hustler" than the movie did from him.
He became a household name, and like Dennis said...people outside of the pool world, still only know two names...Minnesota Fats and Willie Mosconi.

Had it not been for the movie, as I said 99.999 % of the country would never have heard of Rudolph Wanderone, (AKA NY, Triple Smart etc.) Non-pool player's.. (which sadly make up most of the world)..have never heard of ANYBODY in the BCA, OR the 1P HOF.

Do you think Fat's got cheated out of something ?
If you don't think Tevis/Rossen changed Fats life for the better, you simply are not in touch with reality.

PS And you are right Fred...I consider myself an "insider", and I've never heard of Tom Smith. He sounds like a great guy, somebody should have made a movie about him..;). (but thats OK, until joining 1P.org...I had never heard of Artie either)..:rolleyes: :)
 
Last edited:

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
14,688
fred bentivegna said:
the Beard



Incidentally, if Fats gets nominated for some kind of Teachers and Promoters, he wont get my vote.
Why not freddy?
 

demonrho

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
Messages
717
gulfportdoc said:
...It may be that the film version of The Hustler was much more than equal parts of Rossen/Tevis. I'm grateful that he didn't allow his communist background to leak into that great film.
Doc
When Rossen wrote the screenplay and directed "The Hustler", he transformed a literary work into a dramatic work. He had to focus on, develop, and transform only those elements within the pages of the novel that would actually work dramatically on screen. In a sense he re-imagined the whole novel and partially re-created the characters from his own experience by writing their dialog, casting them, and directing them. So, you really could say the movie was as much Rossen's as Tevis's.

Rossen was not a communist ideolog but one of many American artists and writers with a progressive bent who were duped into the Party in the late 1930s. After the war, when the excesses of Stalinism became too apparent to rationalze, he broke with the Party but was blacklisted by Hollywood for awhile. He made a number of fine movies besides "The Hustler" like "All The King's Men."
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
lll said:
Why not freddy?
Larry,

Let me put words in Fred's mouth, as I think he may have gone into a "pout".

He's saying Fat's should be recognized for what he was...one of the greatest characters ever...in the world of pool. Whatever we think of his actual playing ability...he was the W.C Fields/Charlie Chaplin, of pool...in our lifetime.

He was NOT a teacher, or promoter of the game, per say. His main goal, was to get as many people as possible, in PLAYING the game of one pocket, (which he dearly loved as we all do) thereby increasing his odds of getting action of some sort.
A worthy goal as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with Fred on this point. I would not vote for him either, as a candidate for some award like the Jansco's recieved. or like Pat Fleming would be worthy of.

Not that those people are not worthy of recognition for their accomplisments,but the legend the Fat man created, far transcended them.

It would be like giving Jerry Lewis, the same recognition as Paul Newman, for their respective body of work in the acting world.

Both were successful, but in vastly different way's. Likewise, to put it in pool venaculer...I wouldn't think it would be appropriate, to give Fat's the same award as, say, a Greg Sullivan or Jimmy Reid.

Did I make my (your,our ) point adequately clear Fred ? :cool:
 
Last edited:

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
fred bentivegna said:
I guess so Stevo, since he got George and Paulie to put on the first ever, One pocket tourn ever held.
Da Beard

I'm not taking sides as to how Fats played. I don't know. I always loved listening to him talk and I loved his bragging. But as to how the Johnston City one-pocket tourney came about, I will defer to Fats's own words in "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies".

He talks about the movie "The Hustler" coming out and even Georgie Jansco getting bitten by the bug (to see it).

By Fats:

Georgie went to see the movie, and right away he called me at home and said, "Fatty, let's stage a world tournament right here in Johnston City."

"Listen, Georgie," I said, "you must be off your trolley- you can't hold a world tournament in no beer shed."

But Georgie said he would take care of all that, on account of he was starting construction immediately on a private joint called the Cue Club and he would stage the tournament there if I could get the players.

Apparently it was Georgie Jansco's idea for the tournament. At least according to Fats in this book, which admittedly is half-bullshit.

I'd like to see more people tell about how Fats really played in his prime. The only thing I have to go on is what Cornbread told me. I know that Fats was not among the elite in his time and that he was probably a ball or two under the best. I'd sure like to see some people chime in who were there.

Dennis
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Cowboy Dennis said:
I'm not taking sides as to how Fats played. I don't know. I always loved listening to him talk and I loved his bragging. But as to how the Johnston City one-pocket tourney came about, I will defer to Fats's own words in "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies".

He talks about the movie "The Hustler" coming out and even Georgie Jansco getting bitten by the bug (to see it).

By Fats:

Georgie went to see the movie, and right away he called me at home and said, "Fatty, let's stage a world tournament right here in Johnston City."

"Listen, Georgie," I said, "you must be off your trolley- you can't hold a world tournament in no beer shed."

But Georgie said he would take care of all that, on account of he was starting construction immediately on a private joint called the Cue Club and he would stage the tournament there if I could get the players.

Apparently it was Georgie Jansco's idea for the tournament. At least according to Fats in this book, which admittedly is half-bullshit.

I'd like to see more people tell about how Fats really played in his prime. The only thing I have to go on is what Cornbread told me. I know that Fats was not among the elite in his time and that he was probably a ball or two under the best. I'd sure like to see some people chime in who were there.

Dennis
RBL,

From now on, call to get clearance before you post. (1:35-1:36)

You are putting my IMPORTANT posts on page 2. :eek:
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
SJDinPHX said:
RBL,

From now on, call to get clearance before you post. (1:35-1:36)

You are putting my IMPORTANT posts on page 2. :eek:

SBL,

Yeah, I noticed that too. I figured you were bugging my computer to stay one step ahead of me.

Gotta go now, I'm getting ready to watch Michael Corleone whack out Virgil Solozzo and Captain McCluskey.

SJD, don't let this happen to you:) .

RBL
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Finally

Finally

SJDinPHX said:
Larry,

Let me put words in Fred's mouth, as I think he may have gone into a "pout".

He's saying Fat's should be recognized for what he was...one of the greatest characters ever...in the world of pool. Whatever we think of his actual playing ability...he was the W.C Fields/Charlie Chaplin, of pool...in our lifetime.

He was NOT a teacher, or promoter of the game, per say. His main goal, was to get as many people as possible, in PLAYING the game of one pocket, (which he dearly loved as we all do) thereby increasing his odds of getting action of some sort.
A worthy goal as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with Fred on this point. I would not vote for him either, as a candidate for some award like the Jansco's recieved. or like Pat Fleming would be worthy of.

Not that those people are not worthy of recognition for their accomplisments,but the legend the Fat man created, far transcended them.

It would be like giving Jerry Lewis, the same recognition as Paul Newman, for their respective body of work in the acting world.

Both were successful, but in vastly different way's. Likewise, to put it in pool venaculer...I wouldn't think it would be appropriate, to give Fat's the same award as, say, a Greg Sullivan or Jimmy Reid.

Did I make my (your,our ) point adequately clear Fred ? :cool:

Yes. Fatty was a pool player not a teacher.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Well, where was I?

Well, where was I?

Cowboy Dennis said:
I'm not taking sides as to how Fats played. I don't know. I always loved listening to him talk and I loved his bragging. But as to how the Johnston City one-pocket tourney came about, I will defer to Fats's own words in "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies".

He talks about the movie "The Hustler" coming out and even Georgie Jansco getting bitten by the bug (to see it).

By Fats:

Georgie went to see the movie, and right away he called me at home and said, "Fatty, let's stage a world tournament right here in Johnston City."

"Listen, Georgie," I said, "you must be off your trolley- you can't hold a world tournament in no beer shed."

But Georgie said he would take care of all that, on account of he was starting construction immediately on a private joint called the Cue Club and he would stage the tournament there if I could get the players.

Apparently it was Georgie Jansco's idea for the tournament. At least according to Fats in this book, which admittedly is half-bullshit.

I'd like to see more people tell about how Fats really played in his prime. The only thing I have to go on is what Cornbread told me. I know that Fats was not among the elite in his time and that he was probably a ball or two under the best. I'd sure like to see some people chime in who were there.
Dennis
Where was I, on Mars? Did Cornbread tell you Fats busted him in Johnston City? Thats when Fats gave him the nickname, NoBreadRed. I still havent heard any rebut on when Fats played Squirrel in Tampa for $400 a game and ran 8 and out 4 games in a row. And like I said in another thread on here (Can this bank be made?) earlier, "I dont think so," "That dont sound right." and "How could that be?"
THOSE AINT LEGITIMATE ARGUMENTS!
Still waiting for the Strawberry and Weenie Beanie rebuttal. I have already voiced that I charged Strawberry 10k and Mr Beanie wouldnt play me even in Bensingers. (Of course he wouldnt play Artie either) Another "Sure the Beard was there, but so what?" Cannonball Eddie Keinowski gave Beanie a ball and the break and he (the Beanman) lasted for two games.

Beard
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
3,313
Enough already! You guys should bear in mind that 71% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyway. :rolleyes: :eek:
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
fred bentivegna said:
Did Cornbread tell you Fats busted him in Johnston City?
Beard

Freddy,

As I've posted on this site twice and now three times, on a slow night at the Rack I asked Red to tell me how Fats really played. I had always seen him (Fats) acting like a buffoon on tv and wanted to know the truth.

Red told me that he had played Fats one-pocket even, for three days at the Kelly Cue in East Detroit and broke even. In my mind that was a testament to how good Fats played. Maybe Fats was better than Red at that point and Red was still getting better, but it told me that Fats played pretty damn good to play Red for three days and break even. At any time in their careers. That was Red complimenting Fats by telling me the truth when he could have made up a story.

Not personally knowing how Fats played is why I ask for the stories of people who were there.

Dennis
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
14,688
theres 2 parts to every story. as a promoter of 1p (and himself) and as a player. the player part is still undecided . what about the promoter of 1p/ ill concede he was not much of a teacher
 

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,134
Cowboy Dennis said:
Freddy,

As I've posted on this site twice and now three times, on a slow night at the Rack I asked Red to tell me how Fats really played. I had always seen him (Fats) acting like a buffoon on tv and wanted to know the truth.

Red told me that he had played Fats one-pocket even, for three days at the Kelly Cue in East Detroit and broke even. In my mind that was a testament to how good Fats played. Maybe Fats was better than Red at that point and Red was still getting better, but it told me that Fats played pretty damn good to play Red for three days and break even. At any time in their careers. That was Red complimenting Fats by telling me the truth when he could have made up a story.

Not personally knowing how Fats played is why I ask for the stories of people who were there.

Dennis
Dennis, I asked Marcel Camp,(most here won't know of him) a guy I thought should be nominated to the HOF if he could beat FATS.
His answer was "Ive beaten him a couple of times but he's beaten me many more. He once won my brand new convertible in a little town in the midwest."
Rod.
PS, In the middle 60's in houston he beat Johnny "Cannonball" Chapman and U.J. "Utley" Puckett playing both even. FYI Cannonball is in the bank pool HOF.
 
Top