Is Fats a fit?

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,601
Alfie,

Tell BeardBrain, that post I made, was no different then what myself and many other's (including his best bud, Danny D) have said all along. Fats was no better or lesser known, than any other high rolling pool hustler, he just did it better than most. Colorful character that he was, he always had a few thousand loyal (but broke) fans. Out of 300 million, thats hardly a household name.
I tried to put it in a way that EVEN Beardbrain might understand..But nooooo, he still wants to talk about all the hoopla, and TV appearances Fatty Made AFTER he became 'Minnesota Fats"

Fried-Brain Fred, is not even smart enough to realize that only gives MORE credibility to my take on the subject...Sorry...
..., bottom line, no movie, no national recognition for Fatty.

PS..Bicycle Willy, After you've been here a while, you will notice, that if I say white, he says black...I'm surprised he hasn't started kicking his Dachsie's and switched to a "lib lovin' Democrat"... as those were the ONLY two things we ever agreed on. Oh, and while we're at it, get him to tell you the origin of the "Weenie Beanie good, Detroit Whitey Bad" that you see bandied about here...Its very interesting..:rolleyes: ;)
Dick, I think a point you are missing is that there have been a few pool movies with big stars, yet there is only one Fats. He's the only player that had sufficient combination of playing skills and genuine character qualities to parlay himself to icon status. Case in point -- even Ronnie Allen, as great a player and character that he is -- even though he adopted the 'Fast Eddie' nickname; clearly he never got any significant traction as a real celebrity outside of pool -- i.e. even he was unable to capitalize on his chosen movie character in any way shape or manner in comparison to Fats.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
I don't care a whit about the current incarnation of the Beard/Duck feud over the state of Minnesota Fats or his legacy but I will say this: Before I ever walked into a poolroom I knew two player's names, Willie Mosconi & Minnesota Fats, that was it. Now I'm 53 yrs. old and every now & then I ask the younger guys at work (some of whom I shoot with) to name a poolplayer. The only name most of them know is Jeanette Lee. Every so often one will mention Jasmin or Allison or the girl with the big knockers (Karen Corr) but these few names are all they know.

If I mention Fats or Mosconi they look at me like there's a swastika on my forehead, they never heard of either until I bring up the names. Times change, the young guys (20's & 30's) now play computer games with each other when they aren't chasing tomatoes:) or playing ball. They go home and play on the computer half the damn night instead of doing anything they need to learn. They don't give a damn about pool or anyone that plays it, except for the girls they see on ESPN.

The only exceptions being when we could still get online on the cafeteria computer and someone was streaming matches & gambling, the guys enjoyed watching that, otherwise zero, zilch, nada.

Dennis
Thank you, more fodder for my position, Doorknob....Assuming you didn't go in the pool room at 6 months of age, You learned about Fat's when he was at the peak of his popularity. (late 60's early 70's) You grew up hearing his name, before you ever knew what a pool room was...:rolleyes:
 

hitnandpikn

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
37
Whispering Joe Wilson

Whispering Joe Wilson

Alf, now before DickBrain finds somebody else he might have talked to on the phone, or read about in the Huffington Post, or dreamt up, or whatever, who he says, WAS REALLY THERE, let me post this.

Fatty, as you know Alf, had a TV show in Chicago called Minnesota Fats Hustles the Pros. It ran for 13 weeks on a UHF channel (32) that up ‘til then had about 4 viewers. They didn't have ratings then, but for 13 weeks he cleared the streets for 2 hrs on Thursdays and was the talk of the town. Seats for the broadcast were sold out from day 1. I attended the first match when he played CornBread Red. As unbelievably charismatic as CornBread Red was, and I used to follow him around like a puppy dog, when Fats was in the room, the most you could get out of Red was he would mutter quietly at Fats with his head down.

Nobody dominated a room like Fats. On that TV show, I seen him rip the mike out of the hands of the announcer, "Whispering" Joe Wilson, the famous bowling announcer, and take over the whole show. (TV was live in those days)

The famous Second City studio was jammed, and people were sitting on the stairs in violation of the fire code. That's where I sat, the tickets were long gone and I could only get in on a duke from the Fatman. The A/C wasn’t working very well and Fats squawked so much so much that the next week they moved the set to a site that was 3 times the size, but you still had to know somebody to get a ticket. That tiny UHF station, channel 32 is now the Fox Network outlet.

He was on the old Tonight show in the 60s when it ran for 1 1/2 hours, and the host, I forgot who, canceled all the other guests and kept Fatty on for the whole show.

Fats overpowered TV personalities like Mike Douglas and Johnny Carson.

Beard

Alf, ya'll must have noticed how DuckBrain has cleverly backtracked away from his original premise that Fatty never could ever play, and was just a glorified over rated short-stop.
My great Grandfather owned and operated the Faetz-Nisson Lanes in Chicago were Championship Bowling was filmed.I never knew Whispering Joe was moonlighting doing Fats show. It must have been a blast for him after years of then tempermental bowlers. The Faetz-Nisson lanes were the first to televise pro bowling and broke ground with the first black champion on TV.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Thank you, more fodder for my position, Doorknob....Assuming you didn't go in the pool room at 6 months of age, You learned about Fat's when he was at the peak of his popularity. (late 60's early 70's) You grew up hearing his name, before you ever knew what a pool room was...:rolleyes:
Dearest "hatin' on the Fatman" Breath,

I actually met him at the 1963 Michigan State Fair where he absolutely, positively, definitely did not beat me playing one-pocket, 3 Cushion, 9-Ball or anything else.

Cowboy "never got beat by the Fatman" Dennis
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Yet another impartial observation...!

Yet another impartial observation...!

Dick, I think a point you are missing is that there have been a few pool movies with big stars, yet there is only one Fats. He's the only player that had sufficient combination of playing skills and genuine character qualities to parlay himself to icon status. Case in point -- even Ronnie Allen, as great a player and character that he is -- even though he adopted the 'Fast Eddie' nickname; clearly he never got any significant traction as a real celebrity outside of pool -- i.e. even he was unable to capitalize on his chosen movie character in any way shape or manner in comparison to Fats.
Steve,

Do you REALLY think I missed that obvious point. I have seen both of their acts many times, and my observation is this....

They were both world class woofers and sharkers, and each had his own style of creating action. Can you imagine how successful either would have been, had they directed that energy to, say buying or selling stocks, or real estate, or anything high $$$ ?

Obviously, I knew RA, much better than Fat's, and let me say, I honestly don't think Ronnie could have EVER have done what Fat's did, with HIS lucky break. While they had very similar persona's in a pool room, Fat's didn't drink, and always had much more ambition than Ronnie.
I know of many offers RA had, (to become much more successful in life) that he just sloughed off, with his drinking and gambling habits (aka the horses,etc) Sadly, Ronnie never got much "traction" at anything, but hustling pool, and NOT working !..;) (which he did well)

I have heard Fats had some weaknesses in those areas too,..But he didn't have to deal with them, through a haze of alcohol. He was simply much better prepared to deal with ANY life changing opportunities...But even HE, needed some prompting (ie. the Jansco's)

If you gave them both an IQ test, in their prime's, I would imagine they would be pretty close to a tie. That being said, I believe Ronnie, could give Fat's a ton of weight, in the "story telling" department. Neither were very well educated, but I understand Fats was basically illiterate. That is possibly why most of his quips, are one-liners, (albeit, some real classics) surrounded by a constant stream of braggadacio. It was only his colorful personality, and unpredictability, that kept people hanging on his every word.

Ronnie could mix in some (not much) self-depracation, and tell a long story, and really make it interesting, and very funny, to almost anybody, in or out of a pool room. (except in a pool room, we all forgave his very obvious penchant for 'exageration'..to the max) :rolleyes:
Hard to hold that against him, as a LOT (I mean a LOT) of good "storyteller's" have that same affliction..(some even have Beards..:eek:)

Bottom line, they were both very good at self promotion...There is no doubt, who was the much sharper one, at taking advantage of it. As to who was the best player, at their best,...Conversely, I don't their should be much doubt, as to who was the best at one pocket...Billy I. hit it pretty close when he said, "Fatty's game was about 8/7 under Chris Gentile"...I rest my case...again ! :cool:
 
Last edited:

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Fats bad, quack, quack, quack

Fats bad, quack, quack, quack

I believe Ronnie, could give Fat's a ton of weight, in the "story telling" department.

Of all the moronic things you have barfed up onto the forum, the above line is 3 hit and the pick over anything else you have ever said. That line puts you single O, you against the whole rest of the universe.


.Billy I. hit it pretty close when he said, "Fatty's game was about 8/7 under Chris Gentile"...I rest my case...again ! :cool:
Where can I find the announcement that Billy I has been deemed the official Historical Game Evaluator? Who deemed him as such? You?
I happen to be 4 years older than Dr Bill and have access to a pool room, Bensingers, where Fats played a lot of pool in the 30s and 40s. Also in the early 50s he was stationed in Chicago at the big time Sheridan and Wilson pool room. I am going to go with my (studied and researched ) opinion and say Billy was a ball or two off.:sorry

Beard
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
You have, once again, TRIED to disprove what I say, by cleverly [sic] taking it out of context...In the interest of keeping you ON TRACK, (an impossible task) I am forced to clarify it...Do you think people forget what they read, as quickly as YOU do ?.:frus

SJDinPHX said:
I honestly don't think Ronnie could have EVER have done what Fat's did, with HIS lucky break. While they had very similar persona's in a pool room, Fat's didn't drink, and always had much more ambition than Ronnie.
I know of many offers RA had, (to become much more successful in life) that he just sloughed off, with his drinking and gambling habits (aka the horses,etc) Sadly, Ronnie never got much "traction" at anything, but hustling pool, and NOT working !..;) (which did well)

I have heard Fats had some weaknesses in those areas too,..But he didn't have to deal with them, through a haze of alcohol. He was simply much better prepared to deal with ANY life changing opportunities...But even he needed some prompting (ie. George Jansco)

Ronnie could mix in some (not much) self-depracation, and tell a long story, and really make it interesting, and very funny, to almost anybody, in or out of a pool room. (except in a pool room, we all forgave his very obvious penchant for 'exageration' (to the max) !
Hard to hold that against him, as a LOT (I mean a LOT) of good "storyteller's" have that same affliction..(some even have Beards..:eek:)


Bottom line, they were both very good at self promotion...There is no doubt, who was the much sharper one, at taking advantage of it. As to who was the best player, at their best,...Conversely, I don't their should be much doubt, as to who was the best at one pocket...Billy I. hit it pretty close when he said, "Fatty's game was about 8/7 under Chris Gentile"...I rest my case...again !
I have become pretty good at following "paper trails"...here is Billy's post;

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=89769&postcount=24

By the way...guess who's opinion I will take over the other's ???..:confused: :p
 
Last edited:

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I think it's about time for this threads resurrection:). I'll do it with a quote from Fats, taken from his obituary in the N.Y. Times:


Mr. Wanderone, who did not drink but was famous for his love of ice cream, pies or anything sweet, never apologized for his appetite.

As he told it in his 1966 biography, "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies," by Tom Fox, "I've been eating like a sultan since I was 2 days old. I had a mother and three sisters who worshiped me, and when I was 2 years old they used to plop me in a bed with a jillion satin pillows and spray me with exotic perfumes and lilac water and then they would shoot me the grapes."

The early pampering perhaps explains why Mr. Wanderone, who once said he never picked up anything heavier than a silver dollar, grew up with a fierce aversion to physical labor, so much so that on their cross-country trips his wife was expected to do all the driving, carry all the luggage and even change the flat tires.

"Change a tire?" Mr. Wanderone once exclaimed. "I'd rather change cars."


Gotta love that Fatman.

RBL
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
I think it's about time for this threads resurrection:). I'll do it with a quote from Fats, taken from his obituary in the N.Y. Times:


Mr. Wanderone, who did not drink but was famous for his love of ice cream, pies or anything sweet, never apologized for his appetite.

As he told it in his 1966 biography, "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies," by Tom Fox, "I've been eating like a sultan since I was 2 days old. I had a mother and three sisters who worshiped me, and when I was 2 years old they used to plop me in a bed with a jillion satin pillows and spray me with exotic perfumes and lilac water and then they would shoot me the grapes."

The early pampering perhaps explains why Mr. Wanderone, who once said he never picked up anything heavier than a silver dollar, grew up with a fierce aversion to physical labor, so much so that on their cross-country trips his wife was expected to do all the driving, carry all the luggage and even change the flat tires.

"Change a tire?" Mr. Wanderone once exclaimed. "I'd rather change cars."


@@ Gotta love that Fatman.

RBL
You Idiot...You should have resurrected it in the 'Members Forum'..You know, even though I thouroughly out-moved the B...d, and embarassed him on Fat's minutea, I will still have to do it all over again. (he forgets fast :rolleyes:)

@@Gotta love the Fatman. (Yes, any humor ABOVE his..would be WAY too deep for you)..:p
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
You Idiot...You should have resurrected it in the 'Members Forum'..You know, even though I thouroughly out-moved the B...d, and embarassed him on Fat's minutea, I will still have to do it all over again. (he forgets fast :rolleyes:)

@@Gotta love the Fatman. (Yes, any humor ABOVE his..would be WAY too deep for you)..:p
Dear "Doesn't Know How Forums Work" Breath,

They come up where they come up you imbecile. I do have two questions to ask you though: What is "thou roughly" and what is "minute tea"? Thanks for your help:p.

RBL
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
Perhaps I can put a little perspective on Fatty.

In partnership with Joe Burns I put on a 3 week tournament in Dayton Ohio in 1974. Buddy Hall won it. He beat me 11 to 10 in the first round.

I personally arranged for Fatty AND Tevis to come. They had never met each other.

I was the one that introduced them.

Tevis told me that he had worked as a house man in a pool room in Louisville.
I think it was almost impossible to be in a pool room in that era and not hear of New York Fats.

In case anyone is interested, I have an original copy of The Hustler autographed by Tevis and dedicated to me with " From one craftsman to another."

I watched Fatty play a lot in Johnson City in the early years. Anyone that thinks he couldn't play great one pocket should have their head examined.

Ritchie Florence tried to give him 8 to 7 and lost 35K.

Ronnie tried to give him 9 to 7 and never won.

Kelly gave him 10 to 7 and won, but he was the best in the world at that time.

Fatty played even with Cannonball and Pucket and probably played better that either one a few years earlier. That's what Pucket told me.

I can't believe he isn't in the HOF. What are you people thinking?

Bill S.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I can't believe he isn't in the HOF. What are you people thinking?

Bill S.
Like I said, you old dudes need to get a grip Bill. This thread is 3 years and 4 months old. Fats is in the onepocket.org HOF. Calm down.

Dennis
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
In case anyone is interested Sports Illustrated did a wonderful article on the Johnson City tournament in the early 60s'.

It is probably in their archives.

It was 1962-64 I think.

When did the Hustler come out?

Bill S.
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
Like I said, you old dudes need to get a grip Bill. This thread is 3 years and 4 months old. Fats is in the onepocket.org HOF. Calm down.

Dennis
Sorry, I didn't check the date.

I may be old but I can still run 10 and out with just one eye.
Have been trying a new break on ran 10 and out off the break. Never have done that before.

I am having surgery on my other eye next week so I will have 2 eyes again.

Bill S.
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
14,693
Sorry, I didn't check the date.

I may be old but I can still run 10 and out with just one eye.
Have been trying a new break on ran 10 and out off the break. Never have done that before.

I am having surgery on my other eye next week so I will have 2 eyes again.

Bill S.
does that mean now you should be getting 20 and out consistently:eek::)
just kidding bill
i hope ypur surgery goes well
:)
larry
 

diamondave13

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
12
Fats

Fats

I was lucky enough to view an older pool video of a one pocket match between Buddy Hall and Ray Allen with commentary by Ronnie Allen and Freddy the Beard. The commentary is the highlight of the tape. Ronnie and Freddie discuss a match in Johnson City where Ronnie played the aging Fats 10/8. Freddie says the two must have run out 30 times. Ronnie agrees and tells that when he was younger he told a friend thatche was going to play Fats. His friend said Ronnie you can't face the radio to which Ronnie said I got a radio myself. Later the friend asked how he did and Ronnie saidn"Man, that radion I couldn't make a ball." 'Nuff said.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Does anyone on this site have any information on how good Fats played in the 30s and 40s? That "short-timer" in the pool world guy, CJ#1 certainly doesnt. He thinks "doggin it" means to trying to outrun the dog in somebody's yard when you are trying to deliver a package. To give a good example, he didnt know me and he didnt know Artie.:sorry

Fats played Chicago Pony Rosen 8 to 7 in Bensingers in the 30s and 40s. Eddie Taylor player Pony with the same game! Those games of course were on a big table 5 x 10. The only people to spot Pony more than that was Rags Fitzpatrick and Tommy the Greek (same guy who wound up on 4th and Main). Rags played Pony, and won, with 8 to 7 and the break. Tommy the Greek played Pony 8 to 6. In 1969, 1970, 71 or 72, at 4th and Main, Tommy the Greek played Eddie Taylor even 1pkt for $100 a game to a 24 hour draw. Tommy was at least 70 at the time.

The above is what one would call a "real" statistic, not some fantasy, hoped-for estimate by someone who is not qualified to hold an opinion.

Beard
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
I'm with you Freddy.

I think Fatty could really play.

I just don't understand why others don't.

I was watching him play in Johnson City for $100 a game when he made a 2 rail end rail bank and then made another right behind it to win the game.

Just luck I guess.

Bill S.
 

Island Drive

Verified Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
3,713
Evelyn said fatty played his best during the ealy 1940's. He didn't drink or smoke. He appeared to be overweight most his lifetime, still, he lived into his eighties. Pretty amazing with all the second hand smoke and doctors in general during his years and and limted refrigeration for meats back then. Wonder why he never went to war or did he? HIs dad was a merchant marine.
 
Top