I am either a...

fred bentivegna

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...masochist or a sicko to resurrect a dead body. But the "Fairness Doctrine" has forced me to post these emails I sent and received re the infamous Harold Worst tables.

I sent this email to the guy ER was using to represent his case, Tilman Mathis.


Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:20:37 -0700
From: fbentivegna@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Golden Eight ball tables
To: eightballtilo@hotmail.com

Mr Mathis. My name is Freddy the Beard Bentivegna, I have been a top level pool player for 50 years. In the 1960s I spent a lot of time in the Golden Eight Ball in Chicago. They were one of the first companies to use Harold Worst endorsed tables. My recollection of those tables is much different than yours. I spent years in that poolroom and to me and almost everyone else, those were the "worst" tables ever made. They did not have real slate 1 1/2 inches as you related to Eddie Robin in an email in 2007. They may have reverted to slate years later, but the tables in that pool room had artificial slate, supposedly corregated fibreglass called Slateen. They rolled very badly and the cushions were inferior. The tables you spoke of in 2007, over 40 years later, may have underwent improvements. They would have certainly needed to.

Do you know of anywhere in America where those tables are still being used?

Thanks for your time,
Freddy Bentivegna

Since he hasnt replied to ER since 2007 I never expected a reply but unbelivably, I got one. Albeit, a confounding one.

Sir,in reply to yor inquiry of the Golden Eightball tables. There are residences here in the Grand Rapids area that have these particular tables in use, with slate beds and good playing cushions, to me they are comparable to most general commercial Tables I have played and tested. There are also people in the G. R. area that have some just laying around in their storage facilities deteriorating-non-climate controlled, which also are slate beds. I also have a 5x10 Snooker in my climate controlled work shop, 3 piece slate, which I am just currently using as a work bench with the rails off. I can tell you that I have never seen a non-slate composite-bed Golden Eightball Table, slate seems to be the norm by me. This Table was aquired from Harry Worst, son of Carl Worst, who happened to be Harold Worst's brother, and have provenance to prove it. Granted there might have been some construction issues or innovations, which-ever you would prefer, that were questionable, like the strand-wood main-frame in particular, other than that, I for one think there were also some good innovations, like the multi-point leveling system for the slate-bed as well as the standard leg-leveling system for the frame. I also liked the extruded aluminum outer body Rails. which added more over-all frame strength, for the lack of a solid wood main-frame. The rail-cushion rubber could have been a larger(mass) profile for added accuracy, I thought. I hope this resolves some of your Questions. Sure would be interested in some of your books for my private collection. Keep on Strokin & Regards, Tilman Z. Mathis, Billiard Table Recovery Service. 888-430-POOL(7665)


Here is my, as yet, unanswered reply:

Tilman, I played at the Golden Eight Ball in Chicago in the 1960's. Those tables did not have real slate, but something called Slateen. I talked to Bobby Hunter, a top pool player who grew up on the Golden Eight Ball pool room tables in Grand Rapids. He also agreed that the tables he played on back then had Slateen not slate. I can only surmise that the company switched to slate in later years. Do you know anything about that?

Thank you,
Freddy the Beard Bentivegna
 

RedCard

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Slatern or...

Slatern or...

Slateen to roll like a golf green. That's what I always say.
 

vapros

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Fairness Doctrine - my duodenum!! Freddie, you just couldn't stand the peace and quiet, and went to agitating. If we wake up in the morning and find fifty-six long posts in this thread, we will put out a contract. Paisans have been whacked for less. Of all the things I don't want to hear any more about, the pool tables at the Golden Eight Ball are the thing I don't want to hear any more about the most.

And besides, Obama's people killed the Fairness Doctrine six weeks ago. It was in all the papers, in the interest of fairness, I suppose, so you would have to invoke some other political doctrine. :D:eek:
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Of all the things I don't want to hear any more about, the pool tables at the Golden Eight Ball are the thing I don't want to hear any more about the most.
Just in case anyone missed this the first time let me reiterate: nothing in the history of the universe that happened on a 4x8 table means shit to me. I do not care who Eddie Robin beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Bugs beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Cornbread beat on a 4x8 table. I don't care who Don Willis beat or lost to on a 4x8 table. I do not care about any high-run records that were set on a 4x8 table be they 14.1 or banks or 8-Ball or any other game. Unless you did Marilyn Chambers, Linda Lovelace, Seka or Aunt Peg on a 4x8 table I do not care.

4x8 tables did not exist in the world I gambled in for 25 years and they don't exist now. Adult men who played pool for money did and do it on 4 1/2x9's, 5x10's and every now & then a 6x12. 4x8's are irrelevant and mean nothing to anybody that I know of.

Please, if all you have to brag about is who you beat on a 4x8 table, don't waste my time. I don't & will never give a damn.

Dennis
 

lll

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Just in case anyone missed this the first time let me reiterate: nothing in the history of the universe that happened on a 4x8 table means shit to me. I do not care who Eddie Robin beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Bugs beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Cornbread beat on a 4x8 table. I don't care who Don Willis beat or lost to on a 4x8 table. I do not care about any high-run records that were set on a 4x8 table be they 14.1 or banks or 8-Ball or any other game. Unless you did Marilyn Chambers, Linda Lovelace, Seka or Aunt Peg on a 4x8 table I do not care.

4x8 tables did not exist in the world I gambled in for 25 years and they don't exist now. Adult men who played pool for money did and do it on 4 1/2x9's, 5x10's and every now & then a 6x12. 4x8's are irrelevant and mean nothing to anybody that I know of.

Please, if all you have to brag about is who you beat on a 4x8 table, don't waste my time. I don't & will never give a damn.

Dennis
i guess bigger is better:lol:heh:lol:heh:D
 

Greg

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Just in case anyone missed this the first time let me reiterate: nothing in the history of the universe that happened on a 4x8 table means shit to me. I do not care who Eddie Robin beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Bugs beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Cornbread beat on a 4x8 table. I don't care who Don Willis beat or lost to on a 4x8 table. I do not care about any high-run records that were set on a 4x8 table be they 14.1 or banks or 8-Ball or any other game. Unless you did Marilyn Chambers, Linda Lovelace, Seka or Aunt Peg on a 4x8 table I do not care.

4x8 tables did not exist in the world I gambled in for 25 years and they don't exist now. Adult men who played pool for money did and do it on 4 1/2x9's, 5x10's and every now & then a 6x12. 4x8's are irrelevant and mean nothing to anybody that I know of.

Please, if all you have to brag about is who you beat on a 4x8 table, don't waste my time. I don't & will never give a damn.

Dennis
feeling a little at loss words tonight, huh:heh I think we can compare CD's love for 4 x 8's on the same level as the Duck's love for a nice gentlemanly game of full rack of banks.:eek::lol
 

bstroud

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Some people here seem to not like 4x8 tables but I am not one of them.

I grew up on 4x8 Brunswick Anniversary tables and was happy to have anything to play on.

Just in case people don't think it takes real skill to play on a 4x8 I can only mention Johnny Edwards from Bowling Green. He played all the best players of his era, Lassiter, Taylor, many others on 4x8 tables in his room and never lost.

I still agree with Freddy that the Golden Eight Ball 4x8 tables were the worst tables I ever played on.

Bill Stroud
 

Frank Almanza

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Just in case anyone missed this the first time let me reiterate: nothing in the history of the universe that happened on a 4x8 table means shit to me. I do not care who Eddie Robin beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Bugs beat on a 4x8 table. I do not care who Cornbread beat on a 4x8 table. I don't care who Don Willis beat or lost to on a 4x8 table. I do not care about any high-run records that were set on a 4x8 table be they 14.1 or banks or 8-Ball or any other game. Unless you did Marilyn Chambers, Linda Lovelace, Seka or Aunt Peg on a 4x8 table I do not care.

4x8 tables did not exist in the world I gambled in for 25 years and they don't exist now. Adult men who played pool for money did and do it on 4 1/2x9's, 5x10's and every now & then a 6x12. 4x8's are irrelevant and mean nothing to anybody that I know of.

Please, if all you have to brag about is who you beat on a 4x8 table, don't waste my time. I don't & will never give a damn.

Dennis
You didn't say anything about 3 1/2x7 tables.......err never mind.
 

usblues

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There was......

There was......

........some tables being sold in the early-mid 1970's by a company called Ebonite.Or maybe that was the name of the material used in place of slate.The tables were about 1/2 the price of a Brunswick so you can imagine how they played.Like in the Slateen catagory Im thinking.Could of been the same material with a different name.There was a company here in Mpls. that made tables,cues etc. called Schaaf Manufacturing back then.Looked alot like Brunswicks and played good.Keep up the good work men,cheers,James
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Some people here seem to not like 4x8 tables but I am not one of them.

I grew up on 4x8 Brunswick Anniversary tables and was happy to have anything to play on.

Just in case people don't think it takes real skill to play on a 4x8 I can only mention Johnny Edwards from Bowling Green. He played all the best players of his era, Lassiter, Taylor, many others on 4x8 tables in his room and never lost.

I still agree with Freddy that the Golden Eight Ball 4x8 tables were the worst tables I ever played on.

Bill Stroud
Bill,

I also played on 4x8 Anniversarys when I turned 16 in 1974. That was when I played with cousins, friends from school & girls. In or after 1978 I never played again on a 4x8 with one exception that I still remember.

I don't think it quite defends the 4x8 to announce that a man who I've never heard of (did he run for president?) beat all the best players of his era on a 4x8, in his room. That's like me beating Tiger Woods at miniature golf on my home course, and then telling everybody about it.

4x8's are for guys who can't play on anything bigger the same way as 4 1/2x9's were for guys who couldn't play on 5x10's.

4x8's are for guys that don't have a great bartable break & can't get there (shooting wise) on a 4 1/2x9. They are in-between tables for in-between players.

I still agree with you & Freddy that the Golden Eight Ball 4x8 tables were the worst tables that either of you ever played on.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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You didn't say anything about 3 1/2x7 tables.......err never mind.
Frank,

Believe it or not, many moons ago there was a bar near me that had a 3x6 and a 3 1/2x7 in it. Absolutely none of the guys who played on the 3x6 would play on the 3 1/2x7 and it was basically a gambling bar:confused:. The bar is still there, I'll have to stop one day and check out the tables, if they are still there.

Dennis
 

usblues

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Ya,those......

Ya,those......

......3x6's with a big CB and crummy cloth,what a drag......B
 

fred bentivegna

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Yeah, well what about...

Yeah, well what about...

... the 2 1/2 by 5's? We used to call them crackerboxes. They were among the first bar tables ever made. Guys that knew those tables were virtually invincible in their own joint. I played a guy called Corky in an all-nite steel mill bar in Gary, In. Redneck wouldnt begin to describe this joint. On the jukebox they played outrageously racist songs. The NAACP even tried to get the joint shut down, or to at least remove the juke box fare. (which they eventually did) The owner, an irascible scuff called Billy Maples, regularly robbed the customers with pay off pinball machines, and a bar that was magnetized to scam the dice players and pill bottle players. Fights were often, and I will never forget the image of Billy Maples launching off of the top of the bar into a crowd of brawlers with a hammer held high over his head, and bringing it down on some unfortunates leg. Of course he broke it. That done, Corky and I went back to our 9 ball game.

I was with Sugar Shack and Port Chester Mickey at the time. Earlier, Mickey had tried Corky and lost. Mickey wasnt much of a bar table player and didnt have a clue as to how to play on a 2 1/2 x 5. We all played push out back then, but with the table that small there was no safe place to push out to.
I tried a different tact with Corky, I never pushed out for anything. I banked at anything that had a prayer, and if I was snookered I just kicked at it. If you could just make contact with the object ball you were a favorite to shit one in. That tactic worked just fine and I won a milion games and broke Corky.

Beard

Side notes: That was the only guy to ever beat Mickey in all the times we spent on the road.

The hillbilly with the broken leg didn't even leave the bar right away. He stayed and kept drinking. When we left early in the morning, Broke-Leg and his friends left with us, laughing and giggling. They were carrying him to the hospital. Just another juke-box saturday night.

Needless to say, Sugar Shack loved the joint.
 

RedCard

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Kid Slateen

Kid Slateen

I think Lee Marvin played Kid Slateen in Cat Ballou. I believe he was the nerve-artist they were after when they shot Morgan Earp down, bloodying the Velocity Pro as he was fiddling with the controls on his new juice table.
 

Frank Almanza

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... the 2 1/2 by 5's? We used to call them crackerboxes. They were among the first bar tables ever made. Guys that knew those tables were virtually invincible in their own joint. I played a guy called Corky in an all-nite steel mill bar in Gary, In. Redneck wouldnt begin to describe this joint. On the jukebox they played outrageously racist songs. The NAACP even tried to get the joint shut down, or to at least remove the juke box fare. (which they eventually did) The owner, an irascible scuff called Billy Maples, regularly robbed the customers with pay off pinball machines, and a bar that was magnetized to scam the dice players and pill bottle players. Fights were often, and I will never forget the image of Billy Maples launching off of the top of the bar into a crowd of brawlers with a hammer held high over his head, and bringing it down on some unfortunates leg. Of course he broke it. That done, Corky and I went back to our 9 ball game.

I was with Sugar Shack and Port Chester Mickey at the time. Earlier, Mickey had tried Corky and lost. Mickey wasnt much of a bar table player and didnt have a clue as to how to play on a 2 1/2 x 5. We all played push out back then, but with the table that small there was no safe place to push out to.
I tried a different tact with Corky, I never pushed out for anything. I banked at anything that had a prayer, and if I was snookered I just kicked at it. If you could just make contact with the object ball you were a favorite to shit one in. That tactic worked just fine and I won a milion games and broke Corky.

Beard

Side notes: That was the only guy to ever beat Mickey in all the times we spent on the road.

The hillbilly with the broken leg didn't even leave the bar right away. He stayed and kept drinking. When we left early in the morning, Broke-Leg and his friends left with us, laughing and giggling. They were carrying him to the hospital. Just another juke-box saturday night.

Needless to say, Sugar Shack loved the joint.
Wow! A 2.5 x 5. I never heard of one. Sounds like a toy table. Did they use regular size balls? I would love to see a picture of that table. I've played a lot on the 3 x 6 that we called the postage stamp.
 

Jimmy B

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I think Lee Marvin played Kid Slateen in Cat Ballou. I believe he was the nerve-artist they were after when they shot Morgan Earp down, bloodying the Velocity Pro as he was fiddling with the controls on his new juice table.
Wow! A 2.5 x 5. I never heard of one. Sounds like a toy table. Did they use regular size balls? I would love to see a picture of that table. I've played a lot on the 3 x 6 that we called the postage stamp.


I just had to use the quotation marks one time. Calired is a riot, isn't he? I never knew about five footers either. I've seen great legendary matches on the 7, 8, and 9 footers. The cream always seemed to rise to the top. I have played money matches on all three in the same day. Made little difference to me. I threw the red card on all three of them too. How do you remember Marvins character in that movie, RedCard?? Did you have a crush on Jane like I did?? You did didn't you??? I loved that bitch till she started pitching for the other team. Dobie Gillis was in that flick too. Remember Hickman? Remember M-Sqad with Lee Marvin?? Precious Memories, how they linger. Now I got to go get myself off while listening to some David Allan Coe Underground Music and fantasize about giving a young Jane Fonda a pearl necklace and a prefontal lobotomy at the same time.
 
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