Hwypt

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
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Even though the 6ball is dead I wouldn't play my pattern to play for the 6ball because you first must clear the 10ball then the 1ball to get on the 6ball combo..that's not easy considering where the 1ball is positioned. What I would do and how I would be thinking in this type of a situation would be to play for a good angle off the 10ball after pocketing the 15ball to go into the stack..split hitting the 11ball and 6ball and leave the 1ball as an insurance ball to complete my run. Putting all my thoughts into getting to the 6ball combination could be futile if I don't get a good shot with the 1ball to drop for the combo, and like I said that's not easy so don't be fooled with the appealing dead 6ball.

If you can diagram the pattern to drop for the 6ball I would like to see it. The position of the 1ball is lying awkwardly and trying to get to the 1ball to drop for the combo may be a mistake. Jmo.

Bill Incardona
I like`the shot the 15 ball then the ten ball . And the cue ball into the 11 and 6 ball.Even if you are froze. witch you wont be froze. Because you will be cutting the one ball. And you wont have a straight in shot. So you wont be jacket up. And from there you will have a good chance to run out.

And Like I keep saying shot the shot and you will see that you wont be froze. That is the correct way to play the shot. And if you cant get a good angle of the 15 ball to shoot the ten ball. Then I suggest you play position on the 9 ball. Then the 10 ball. Or you can go from the 9 ball to the one ball if you have the wrong angle.

And shoot the one then the 10 ball and your dead combination will still be there for you to shot. Or you can run 4 balls and lock your opponent back up, And I don.t think the 6 ball combination is dead. From the angle I am looking at. Ghost is the 6 ball dead?
 

wincardona

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Bill, I do like the idea of using the ten to loosen the eleven and six balls while playing position on the one. My only concern with this shot is that the shot may leave the cue ball jacked up over the stack. This may result in trying to force the cue ball up table for the next shot in the sequence or settling for just cinching the one. Of course if this does not happen and you can get up table after shooting the one, you are home free.

To answer your question of how to best navigate off the one for position on the combination this can be done by acquiring the angle shown in the picture below. ( white lines) This should be relatively easy to accomplish with the proper angle on the ten. From there using two rail shape to come around the stack a moderately decent window for the combo is there for the taking. (black lines) By this time, having shot a few balls in succession good touch should have been acquired. My target for the cue ball on this shot is softly into the bottom of the eight ball. Should I hit the nine along the way I will still have shape on the combination. This gives me ample room to negotiate my shot.

This is not to say this is the only way to play for the run out but if I feel I have the speed of the table down this is probably the way I would handle this out.
My decision to go one way or the other will be based on the angle I achieve on the ten.

Tom
I agree that based off your diagram you can accomplish what you set out to do, however, you'll need to play very accurate position for the 1ball and I can see how that could be problematic. Playing for the angle to go into the 6 and 11ball off the 10ball is just about automatic, and for that reason I like the break out option better. In addition to that, the balls will open up nicely if you split the 6 and 11ball. I'll take my chances of not getting "jacked up" on the 1ball.

Bill Incardona
 

tylerdurden

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Well, If I am dispensing cookies, Dr. Bill gets it. And his explanation is spot on. For those of you who disagree with his choice you will have to back up your claim with a stronger case.

I will not add to the good Dr.'s analysis of his shot but I will address two of the other options which were provided. Please do not be offended because as I see it, it is all a matter of percentages.

First, The thought of playing the one ahead of the thirteen carries the risk of coming up dry or at least limiting the possibility of scoring heavily in this inning should the cue ball run directly into the ten ball which is on the bottom rail. This is a real possibility and therefore if a natural roll is used to shoot this shot, a draw stroke or a tempered shot with follow and inside English would have to be employed to avoid this from happening. All of this complicates a situation which is not necessary because of the option on the thirteen.

Second, and this shot has some merit but in my opinion is the weaker of the two best shots, is to play the thirteen and run the cue ball between the ten and fifteen. The problem with this option is two fold. The speed control on this shot is a concern. If solid position on the fifteen is not achieved there may not be a decent angle to get on the ten for the breakout and position on the one. And what happens should when shooting the thirteen the cue ball runs two rails into the fifteen either directly or to the high side? This shot has the potential of leaving the shooter with a one ball run followed up with a safety.

No, the Dr.'s choice is by far the best decision in this situation. His option is easy to execute, has much margin for error, and has back up possibilities with the ten ball or the one ball should things somehow not work quite as planned.

Below is the out come of having shot this shot as Bill described. Now the question is how do you run the seven remaining balls needed to win the game. A clue; the six ball is now dead in your hole but it is blocked by the one and the two will not pass the fourteen. Be specific.
I am just going to reply quickly while the thought is in my head before i read the rest of the replies, but my thought is if you can't make that ball on the rail from pretty much anywhere over this side (short of getting on the 15), you need to go to the kiddy pool. just quit playing. so, im my eyes, i wont diagram it, but there is a huge area there to get position on either the 15 or the ball on the rail.... pretty much the entire corner area. but i see the merit in the the docs shot as well, and will gladly accept it as "correct", even though i would not shoot it like that. i dont care what anybody says, i dont care how good you play, i can get one if i shoot billys shot. may not be likely, but it can happen. worst thing happens with my shot is you go into the stack off the 10 (after shooting the hanger 13) and you maybe have a bank on the 15 if you cant see the one, which is unlikely. almost any angle on that 15 bank is going to put him in a very tough spot, if you dont make it. i also feel opening the balls up from the end rail is a much much better angle to be opening them, pushing them "out" and favoring your hole, while the other way you are opening up the other guys hole more, and in the example kinda made the one tougher to get to. i like both though, dont get me wrong, but know which i would choose even considering the thoughtful replies here :)
 
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Tom Wirth

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I am just going to reply quickly while the thought is in my head before i read the rest of the replies, but my thought is if you can't make that ball on the rail from pretty much anywhere over this side (short of getting on the 15), you need to go to the kiddy pool. just quit playing. so, im my eyes, i wont diagram it, but there is a huge area there to get position on either the 15 or the ball on the rail.... pretty much the entire corner area. but i see the merit in the the docs shot as well, and will gladly accept it as "correct", even though i would not shoot it like that. i dont care what anybody says, i dont care how good you play, i can get one if i shoot billys shot. may not be likely, but it can happen. worst thing happens with my shot is you go into the stack off the 10 (after shooting the hanger 13) and you maybe have a bank on the 15 if you cant see the one, which is unlikely. almost any angle on that 15 bank is going to put him in a very tough spot, if you dont make it. i also feel opening the balls up from the end rail is a much much better angle to be opening them, pushing them "out" and favoring your hole, while the other way you are opening up the other guys hole more, and in the example kinda made the one tougher to get to. i like both though, dont get me wrong, but know which i would choose even considering the thoughtful replies here :)
Tyler, The point I was making is not simply getting position on the ten as a back up should position on the fifteen not be achieved. The point rather is to be in a position to use the ten as a break ball and fall on the one. This can only be accomplished from a very limited area on the table. Too big an angle and you will not reach the eleven and six. Too narrow an angle and now the shot must be muscled which reduces the accuracy of the shot. There is only the one ball which provides a follow-up shot, that being the one. This means the break-out must be accurate.

Remember the question and objective here is how would you maximize the scoring possibilities.

One other point I would like to make has to do with the way the stack is broken. When breaking the balls from below, which is precisely what is happening when using the thirteen as the break ball, ( I assume this is the shot you are referring to ) the balls are moving up table. It may be true that a few will be sent toward your opponent's side in this case but many will be out in the open. Remember, you only need eight to win.

BTW: The break-out using the thirteen is a variation of a standard straight pool break. As long as there are back-up shots such as the fifteen, one, and ten, it is important to get the job done early. This shot is very easy to execute and can be struck aggressively which adds to a players confidence.

Tom
 
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wincardona

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Is this a wwyd on the first shot? Well, I would def shoot that ball closest my hole and set the cb to the left of the spot as we look at it, and go side rail, end rail with the cb and between those 2 balls closest to the end rail on his side. If you get a good angle on the ball on the top rail it is nice cus you can shoot it, go into the stack and open up a few and have the one there to shoot next. I think this is the best path/plan to get out here.
Tyler, I have been confronted with this type of a situation many times where I had to "thread the needle" in playing position for my next ball in the fashion that you're explaining ..so i'm quite clear on the advantages and disadvantages of playing position with this method. Allow me to offer you another perspective on shots that carry similar angles, like the one you're shooting from with your shot. (on the 13ball)

The common problem we both have shooting off the 13ball is hitting the ball first and not the rail first, hitting the rail first will create problems for either shot, however, with your shot hitting rail first will create more problems because speed of the cue ball with your option is more critical than with my option. Plus by hitting rail first using your method you increase the possibility of going into the 10ball and ending your opportunity to cause damage. This falls under the description of accuracy, and as subtle as it appears the difference in the angle and speed for both of our options pends on a ball first hit much more with your option then with mine. Plus with my option the hit is an easier one because i'm aiming at a fuller ball with more speed. I initially suggested with my option to use 1/2 tip of left english, allow me to correct myself on that. This shot actually plays better with just a high center ball with maybe just "favoring" the left side of the cue ball..but not by much. This method will not only increase your accuracy but it will also keep you on a more reliable angle coming off the bottom rail. Keep in mind that the slightest mishit with the shot by hitting rail first will impart left spin on the cue ball which should be factored into your decision, even a millimeter off of accuracy by hitting rail first will effect the spin with the shot, obviously the more rail first the more unattended spin will take place.

Stroud said in his post that he would play the shot much like you mentioned and play for the 15ball, then the 10ball, this requires good speed and an accurate hit. However, playing for the 15ball off the 13ball requires a "pin point" placement with the cue ball to end up with the angle needed to stay or drop for the 10ball.:eek: I don't see that happening.:sorry But playing for the 15ball with my method you can clearly envision a good outcome because after going into the stack from the angle you created will keep you on the correct side of the 15ball

Speed and accuracy are crucial ingredients when playing winning pool. If given a choice choose the one that is best suited to achieve a higher degree of success when it's important to have them on your side.

For those who aren't familiar with the method I suggested for this shot do yourself a huge favor and practice this shot and shots like this one. Practice shooting these shots with a tip of english and then with just a high center ball and then judge for your self the difference in the outcome with the cue ball..and also the consistency you will get with your intended path.

Bill Incardona
 
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vapros

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Dr. Bill, this shot reminds me of a shot that cost you a match, several years ago. I'm sure you can remember. I think the angle was a little sharper, and your cue ball rolled slowly across the table and scratched - it just wouldn't stop.

Steve Cook, maybe, I can't remember. I have it on a DVD.
 

unoperro

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Speed and accuracy are crucial ingredients when playing winning pool. If given a choice choose the one that is best suited to achieve a higher degree of success when it's important to have them on your side.

For those who aren't familiar with the method I suggested for this shot do yourself a huge favor and practice this shot and shots like this one. Practice shooting these shots with a tip of english and then with just a high center ball and then judge for your self the difference in the outcome with the cue ball..and also the consistency you will get with your intended path.

Bill Incardona[/QUOTE

Try a 1/2 tip right 1/2 tip top cueball floats across. Speed is less sensititive.
 
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bstroud

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I like to play as simple as possible.

Letting the cue ball hit the stack when I am not exactly sure where it is hitting is a gamble I seldom take.

From this position shape on the 15 or the 10 ball is a sure thing. If you can't get shape here you had better go back to the practice table.

Bill S.
 
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tylerdurden

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Tyler, I have been confronted with this type of a situation many times where I had to "thread the needle" in playing position for my next ball in the fashion that you're explaining ..so i'm quite clear on the advantages and disadvantages of playing position with this method. Allow me to offer you another perspective on shots that carry similar angles, like the one you're shooting from with your shot. (on the 13ball)

The common problem we both have shooting off the 13ball is hitting the ball first and not the rail first, hitting the rail first will create problems for either shot, however, with your shot hitting rail first will create more problems because speed of the cue ball with your option is more critical than with my option. Plus by hitting rail first using your method you increase the possibility of going into the 10ball and ending your opportunity to cause damage. This falls under the description of accuracy, and as subtle as it appears the difference in the angle and speed for both of our options pends on a ball first hit much more with your option then with mine. Plus with my option the hit is an easier one because i'm aiming at a fuller ball with more speed. I initially suggested with my option to use 1/2 tip of left english, allow me to correct myself on that. This shot actually plays better with just a high center ball with maybe just "favoring" the left side of the cue ball..but not by much. This method will not only increase your accuracy but it will also keep you on a more reliable angle coming off the bottom rail. Keep in mind that the slightest mishit with the shot by hitting rail first will impart left spin on the cue ball which should be factored into your decision, even a millimeter off of accuracy by hitting rail first will effect the spin with the shot, obviously the more rail first the more unattended spin will take place.

Stroud said in his post that he would play the shot much like you mentioned and play for the 15ball, then the 10ball, this requires good speed and an accurate hit. However, playing for the 15ball off the 13ball requires a "pin point" placement with the cue ball to end up with the angle needed to stay or drop for the 10ball.:eek: I don't see that happening.:sorry But playing for the 15ball with my method you can clearly envision a good outcome because after going into the stack from the angle you created will keep you on the correct side of the 15ball

Speed and accuracy are crucial ingredients when playing winning pool. If given a choice choose the one that is best suited to achieve a higher degree of success when it's important to have them on your side.

For those who aren't familiar with the method I suggested for this shot do yourself a huge favor and practice this shot and shots like this one. Practice shooting these shots with a tip of english and then with just a high center ball and then judge for your self the difference in the outcome with the cue ball..and also the consistency you will get with your intended path.

Bill Incardona
Thanks to both you and Tom for your replies. I will just respond, without disagreeing with what you said, and simply say that if I just make it past that ball on the rail, I feel I am ok. getting on the 15 would be kind of a bonus, but i dont see that as the play at all. You could bump the 15 and be fine though. And, that 13 is close enough to the hole where you can very effectively avoid a rail first hit. just for fun, yet another thing to consider is to play the rail first hit, that is a perfect angle for rail first with a rolling ball. Speed could get out of control, but point is I think that close to the hole you can effectively choose ball or rail first because you have the luxury of a little thicker or thinner hit. i'll make one last point: ask any straight pool player if theyd rather go into the stack 2 rails off the 13 or the 10 on the rail, and i bet they will opt for the 10. your shot is a very eloquent solution and i think this is a good discussion.

Billy, you can lead a horse to water, the question is now, are you smart enough to know how to force him into drinking :heh
 
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wincardona

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Thanks to both you and Tom for your replies. (You're welcome) I will just respond, without disagreeing with what you said, and simply say that if I just make it past that ball on the rail,(yes) I feel I am ok. getting on the 15 would be kind of a bonus, (very unlikely) but i dont see that as the play at all. You could bump the 15 and be fine though. (positioning the 15ball in a tougher position) And, that 13 is close enough to the hole where you can very effectively avoid a rail first hit. just for fun, yet another thing to consider is to play the rail first hit, that is a perfect angle for rail first with a rolling ball. Speed could get out of control, but point is I think that close to the hole you can effectively choose ball or rail first because you have the luxury of a little thicker or thinner hit. i'll make one last point: ask any straight pool player if theyd rather go into the stack 2 rails off the 13 or the 10 on the rail, and i bet they will opt for the 10. your shot is a very eloquent solution and i think this is a good discussion.

Billy, you can lead a horse to water, the question is now, are you smart enough to know how to force him into drinking :heh
Maybe the question should be..Is the horse smart enough to drink.:)

Allow me to address your point on ..would a straight pool player rather go into the stack off the 13ball or the 10ball, which to me is not the answer you should be looking for. I'll explain my thinking.

Going into the stack off the 13ball isn't designed to break open the stack, however, it will open the balls up a little more which should in turn offer the shooter a more appealing menu of shots. Which is evidenced in Tom's picture after he shot the shot. It's also designed to fall good on the 15ball. Like Tom suggested and I agree that your entry into the stack off the 13ball will be on an angle that would naturally send the cue ball to the best side of the 15ball where you can then play position effortlessly for the 10ball to open up the balls, and save the 1ball as your insurance ball. This method is designed (as Tom mentioned) to increase your ball running production. So the real benefits in shooting the shot the way Tom and I suggest are

#1. Speed of the shot is easier to control so you just about always come up with a shot.
#2. Loosen up the stack enough to create a better situation.
#3. Allows you to land on the 15ball with the correct angle to play shape for the 10ball. Balls that are frozen to the rail are tricky balls (10ball) the 15ball will put you in a position to decide which angle is best for pocketing and opening up the stack off of it. (10ball)

Tyler, notice in Tom's post#12 how much more appealing the situation is after going into the balls off the 13ball. From the new position you can clearly see the benefits of his choice, the position needed for the 10ball is much more attainable..the stack is much more vulnerable..and you will also count the 15ball as a ball pocketed.

Grant you, it didn't necessarily have to work out that way but the shot and the angles are there for it to. With both shots there are going to be hurdles, imo Tom's shot has a plan and it's not hard to execute. Where your shot is shoot and hope..kinda.:sorry

Bill Incardona
 
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