Golf and One Pocket

[fred bentivegna]

Almost every post in this thread has some very factual insights into the game of golf. It has always been one of my favorite games. It tends to be a lousy ring game, for the most part, unless the stakes are high enough, and the skill levels are fairly close, AND you are quite sure there is no 'funny business' going on. I much prefered head-up, or partners, even if I had to give up a little weight.
The variance in rules, can be a huge distraction. Most smart room owners try to keep them oriented toward playing safe (easily) and amassing dozens of hickeys, and 5 or 6 handed games can go on for hours, specially on a fairly tight 6 X 12.
Where there are plenty of good player's, they usually establish a good, workable set of rules........(unfortunately Hendy, LA
is NOT one of them)....The rules quite often will vary (in the same room) from a head-up game, to a ring game...The reasons for that, should be quite obvious...The other 'house rule' in many places was, (if they had enough tables) there would be an "open table" and a table where the 'A' players were NOT welcome. The pecking order was usually well established.
I became quite proficient at the game, at a fairly young age, mostly due to geography. Where I was raised, it was only a tank of gas or so, to Alburquque, Denver, or Salt Lake City..where, in my younger days, Golf was the established game of choice..

I easily converted to one pocket, on a snooker table, when it started becoming popular, but it was some time before I finally learned to defend myself at it on a pool table..Believe me,They are two COMPLETELY different games...Running more than
3 or 4 balls, is a rarity, 8 and out, is almost non-exsistent.

I never cared much for ring games (unless I was stealing) Also, golf is really best played on a 6 X 12, which started to become quite rare some years ago...There used to be one or two in almost every room.. However, where I live now (Phoenix) with a metro area of over 3 million, and several dozen pool rooms, there are now ZERO 6 X 12's and only two, 5 x 10 snooker tables in the whole city.

I gotta go now..I will close with a slight brag, (one for you Fred, only 2 witnesses still above ground though) ...I have run six pockets more times than I can remember, but my real high point occured in the late 50's, in SLC...Fairly early in the match, I ran six pockets, on a fairly snug 6 X 12..."back to back". I think John Henderson may be the only one on here, who may recognize the difficulty factor in that. Probably similar to rolling two 300 games in a row...By the way, the guy I was playing (head-up) didn't quit..We played for about 8-10 hours, for $50/5, then $100/10 and broke DEAD EVEN..His name was "Popeye" Archuleta, from Alburqurque...He golfed his ball pretty good too ! ...I got me some Golf stories..more later..Please save them!

You want to talk about a "niche" game? Golf? gag, choke, puke. I have a hunch that your brag, Johnston City encounter with Eddie Kelly was probably a nice, safe Golf game. How about it? Right? I had three matches with Eddie Kelly in Johnston City and Stardust tournaments. Two one pocket and one 9 Ball. Kelly is 0 for 3 with me. In the 90s we played even 1 pkt in Chicago and I lost. That is real pool no matter how you want to look at it. Do you want to use that phone number you have to call Kelly for verification? :lol

Beard

 

[petie]

Almost every post in this thread has some very factual insights into the game of golf. It has always been one of my favorite games. It tends to be a lousy ring game, for the most part, unless the stakes are high enough, and the skill levels are fairly close, AND you are quite sure there is no 'funny business' going on. I much prefered head-up, or partners, even if I had to give up a little weight.
The variance in rules, can be a huge distraction. Most smart room owners try to keep them oriented toward playing safe (easily) and amassing dozens of hickeys, and 5 or 6 handed games can go on for hours, specially on a fairly tight 6 X 12.
Where there are plenty of good player's, they usually establish a good, workable set of rules........(unfortunately Hendy, LA
is NOT one of them)....The rules quite often will vary (in the same room) from a head-up game, to a ring game...The reasons for that, should be quite obvious...The other 'house rule' in many places was, (if they had enough tables) there would be an "open table" and a table where the 'A' players were NOT welcome. The pecking order was usually well established.
I became quite proficient at the game, at a fairly young age, mostly due to geography. Where I was raised, it was only a tank of gas or so, to Alburquque, Denver, or Salt Lake City..where, in my younger days, Golf was the established game of choice..

I easily converted to one pocket, on a snooker table, when it started becoming popular, but it was some time before I finally learned to defend myself at it on a pool table..Believe me,They are two COMPLETELY different games...Running more than
3 or 4 balls, is a rarity, 8 and out, is almost non-exsistent.

I never cared much for ring games (unless I was stealing) Also, golf is really best played on a 6 X 12, which started to become quite rare some years ago...There used to be one or two in almost every room.. However, where I live now (Phoenix) with a metro area of over 3 million, and several dozen pool rooms, there are now ZERO 6 X 12's and only two, 5 x 10 snooker tables in the whole city.

I gotta go now..I will close with a slight brag, (one for you Fred, only 2 witnesses still above ground though) ...I have run six pockets more times than I can remember, but my real high point occured in the late 50's, in SLC...Fairly early in the match, I ran six pockets, on a fairly snug 6 X 12..."back to back". I think John Henderson may be the only one on here, who may recognize the difficulty factor in that. Probably similar to rolling two 300 games in a row...By the way, the guy I was playing (head-up) didn't quit..We played for about 8-10 hours, for $50/5, then $100/10 and broke DEAD EVEN..His name was "Popeye" Archuleta, from Alburqurque...He golfed his ball pretty good too ! ...I got me some Golf stories..more later..

One time on a 5 by 10 snooker table while giving Jew Paul 11 to 8, Cornbread ran 11 and out ten times in one day.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I easily converted to one pocket, on a snooker table, when it started becoming popular, but it was some time before I finally learned to defend myself at it on a pool table..Believe me,They are two COMPLETELY different games...Running more than 3 or 4 balls is a rarity, 8 and out, is almost non-exsistent.

That's difficult to comprehend unless you've played it on a tight 5'x10' and you sure wouldn't bet your cash on a loose 5'x10'.

RBL

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

One time on a 5 by 10 snooker table while giving Jew Paul 11 to 8, Cornbread ran 11 and out ten times in one day.

Petie,

This may have been another time, I wasn't there, but I think Red ran 10 & out playing Paul five times in one match and maybe 5 times in a row. I could be wrong.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Pretty obvious to me...

Pretty obvious to me...

You want to talk about a "niche" game? Golf? gag, choke, puke. <--YES, gag, choke, puke, "while you starve to death, looking for action" BANKS, IS "STILL" A NICHE GAME,...Banks was ALWAYS confined to "Dueling Banjo" country (which apparently includes, Chitago and Dirtroit) Whereas a GOLF game could be easily found (usually for decent $$$) in the smallest town, or the biggest city, almost ANYWHERE in the U.S or Canada...More '2012' dollars, probably changed hands, in one year, at Golf, (on a snooker table) than in the entire [sic] history of [giggle] Bank pool. ! Just ask JH, or Frank the Barber, how many Bank games they even SAW, in all their years of runnin' around he won't lie for either of us..!

I have a hunch that your brag, Johnston City encounter with Eddie Kelly was probably a nice, safe Golf game. Right? <--There were NO snooker tables at J.C. or the Stardust, you idiot !.. I had three matches with Eddie Kelly in Johnston City and Stardust tournaments. Two one pocket and one 9 Ball. Kelly is 0 for 3 with me.<--I am AWESTRUCK !!! In the 90s we played even 1 pkt in Chicago and I lost. <---I am also, REALLY AWESTRUCK (that you played EVEN !!!) You ain't too bright are you ?. That is real pool no matter how you want to look at it. Do you want to use that phone number you have to call Kelly for verification? <--Edwin is getting too old, I would not want to risk one of us having a laughing fit, thereby causing 'CARDIAC ARREST'..

Beard

I trust I have answered ALL your 'burning' questions, in this post..Please let me know if I was remiss (as I am sure you will) ..
Isn't it about time for Mr. Pincushion to "help you out" ?..He is TRULY an expert, on extinct 'NO action' games..:lol :lol

Snooker McDuck, PGA member..

PS..Note;.. Brag update,...Beardo--1,070...The Duck--9.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Learning

Learning

All of the above is horribly true. Defense + more-than-two-players = confusing

That being said, it does seem to have some redeeming qualities, assuming you're not looking for sanity or consistency in a game:

1. It's a game that centers around shooting shots that you have no business shooting. Want to try a risky four railer? As long as you leave your man safe, go ahead. Even if it's off by a mile, if your speed is right, and it lands somewhere close to your hole, everyone is legally bound to nod and acknowledge that it showed poise, grace, and really wasn't a bad try. In a one pocket game, if you even thought about a crazy shot like that, people on the rail would be dialing their friends, saying "You can't believe this idiot.. Come down here quick, and bring cash!"

2. It's the only game I've played with more than three people that has any concept of defense. Ring games, payball, etc are pure shooting. Hell, it's really just a ring safety game. And who wouldn't wanna dive right in to a ring safety game?

3. While the game itself moves slowly, with strong players, it can end really, really quickly. So once a strong player is in a position to run out, the game goes nuclear, with leading players trying to catch up, lagging players trying to cover the monster that follows them, and temporary alliances are formed. Then betrayed. Then formed again.

4. It's fairly unique in positioning and safeties, because each player has to hit a different ball first. And they have to make it in a single hole. So you get the difficulty of safeties in rotation games, but on a per-player basis. Still pissed at that one guy that sold out last week? You can bury his ball, shoot at your hole, and hold your man, if you can only figure out how much rolloff there is and whether your eight-railer will clear that ball.. Of course, this is all tempered by local "what happens when you're hooked" rules.

5. The table is playing, too: No game in the history of the world has focused more group hatred at a poor, inanimate snooker table than golf. With fast cloth, every imperfection is magnified, and pool balls meeting snooker rails and bends, the table gets a lot of focus. Hearing two golfers discuss a table always reminds me of Houstonites, who always end up talking about traffic and how to get where. If the Eskimos had a dozen words for snow, I think golfers need a dozen for rolloff.


The exact weird group concept of defense that you illustrate is what actually makes golf what it is, the only social pool game I've ever found. Without that, it just ends up as another "hey, nice shot" all-offense game. And bottle pool would be much more fun at that point.

-Jeff

Jeff-

as someone new to the game too, I like your description of the game. Especially, the shifting sands of temporary alliances.

Learning to play 'right' seems tough. Opinions of what's the right shot-seem to be colored by how a particular player wanted you to shoot.

I keep hearing about 'feeding' the ball to someone that shoots before the leader, so that he can 'run' the cueball to a tough spot for the leader to shoot from, or to attempt a 'take out' of the leader's ball. Often, that means that the the guy before the shooter may not get to go for his hole too.

When that player continues to shoot at his hole and leave the leader in good shape to make or improve his position-he may not get the cb fed to him when the leader is hanging in the out hole. He has made little or no effort to hold his man prior to this.....so paying double may be his reward.

On our local table-it may take 3-4 bumps to get a ball ready to go in a corner. This 5x10 is very tight. May be 1/8inch clearance into the deep shelf corners. The ball must be directly in front of the corner pocket to go.

The table roll off will drive you nuts, and cost you hickies and bad hits on other players' balls. Hit very slow, it might roll off a full ball. Next time, from the same spot, it may roll off 1/2 ball.

Many games end on either a nice 3 or 4 railer-or-a double kiss, while attempting to position the cue ball, resulting in a sellout easy shot for the winner.

I like the game. It's costing to learn. Imagine that.:frus

 

[mosconiac]

Speaking of rules, I have a question about the opening break. I played in one place where if you made your bank to the first hole on the break, you had to take the CB back to the "D" and break again from there (to the 2 hole, of course). Is that a common configuration across the country or an anomoly?

BTW, I made the first 4 holes that way (bringing the CB back to the "D" after each shot) one time & then DOGGED the 5 hole...an easy shot compared to the banks to 1-2-3. :frus

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Speaking of rules, I have a question about the opening break. I played in one place where if you made your bank to the first hole on the break, you had to take the CB back to the "D" and break again from there (to the 2 hole, of course). Is that a common configuration across the country or an anomoly?

I've never seen this rule. If you broke and made the 1 hole you would shoot from where the cueball stopped. The only time the cueball would be returned to the "D" is when you finally missed and it's the next player's break.

Dennis

 

[androd]

Speaking of rules, I have a question about the opening break. I played in one place where if you made your bank to the first hole on the break, you had to take the CB back to the "D" and break again from there (to the 2 hole, of course). Is that a common configuration across the country or an anomoly?

BTW, I made the first 4 holes that way (bringing the CB back to the "D" after each shot) one time & then DOGGED the 5 hole...an easy shot compared to the banks to 1-2-3. :frus

Yes, I've seen it played that way. I think it's played every way, depending where you are. The house rules always seem to be different.
Rod.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I trust I have answered ALL your 'burning' questions, in this post..Please let me know if I was remiss (as I am sure you will) ..
Isn't it about time for Mr. Pincushion to "help you out" ?..He is TRULY an expert, on extinct 'NO action' games..:lol :lol

Snooker McDuck, PGA member..

PS..Note;.. Brag update,...Beardo--1,070...The Duck--9.

I see, you loaded this post up with your juvenile rhetoric but "conveniently" dodged answering the question I asked days ago -- just what did Kelly and you do in Johnston City? Keep in mind I am anal enough to call him myself in Vegas for verification if you fib.

For your information, here is something that you can add to your meager knowledge and background re Johnston City. They did have a 5 x 10 snooker table installed in Johnston City one year, doofus! That shows how much you know. They put it in to lure Sammy Blumenthal up from Jacksonville. After Harold Worst pulverized Sammy the table was removed never to return.

Beard

Here in Chicago they are kicking in the doors of the poolrooms to get in and play Golf.:lol

 

[jtompilot]

In his interview SJD mentions playing golf up at Cochran's and I've heard an eyewitness account of him playing golf one-handed at the old California Billiard club on Stevens Creek Blvd. That got me to thinking about golf.

There's no golf forum so this is the only place to put this thought. The similarities and differences between golf and OP intrigue me and I'm curious about the observations which others might have in this regard.

In OP one is trying to shoot a sequence of balls into a single pocket whereas in golf one is trying to shoot a single ball into a sequence of pockets. When golf is played as a ring game it brings more clutter onto the table with some of the same effects one sees in OP but, in my opinion, having multiple players at cross purposes overshadows all the other elements at that point.

I remember watching the golf games at the House of Billiards on Santa Monica Blvd. in Los Angeles years ago but even at that tender age my survival instincts were good enough to keep me out of those ring games. There were two categories of players, the scufflers whose faces you recognized from all the other rooms in the area and the old timers who were all at least 90, you know, a little bit younger than SJD and the Beard:heh.

Were you around House of Billiards when Mexican Ron(Rosas), Rich, Tom, and the other Ron played there?

I ran into Ron Rosas at Plush Pocket in Van Nuys and he remembered me from 35 years ago.

 

[NH Steve]

I actually have a rare copy of the book, Official Rules and Directives for Billiard Golf by Kenneth LeBar It is copyright 1980. It is a small hardbound book and would be a little difficult to spread open the pages to scan them without damaging the spine, but worth a try. It includes 92 rules!

 

[SJDinPHX]

I actually have a rare copy of the book, Official Rules and Directives for Billiard Golf by Kenneth LeBar It is copyright 1980. It is a small hardbound book and would be a little difficult to spread open the pages to scan them without damaging the spine, but worth a try. It includes 92 rules!

I would venture to say, I have probably played, at least 92 DIFFERENT sets of rules...The original rules of golf, had you breaking out of the D, object ball, on the 6 ball spot and shooting at the 1st hole. You continued to shoot, until you made the 1 hole, counting your strokes, (much like 'Stymie')...Lowest score won...It was a boring way to play, and was soon superceded by the conventional (but convoluted) rules, that went on for years.

 

[stevelomako]

I would venture to say, I have probably played, at least 92 DIFFERENT sets of rules...The original rules of golf, had you breaking out of the D, object ball, on the 6 ball spot and shooting at the 1st hole. You continued to shoot, until you made the 1 hole, counting your strokes, (much like 'Stymie')...Lowest score won...It was a boring way to play, and was soon superceded by the conventional (but convoluted) rules, that went on for years.

Hey Papie! How ya doin?

I would have loved to have played you golf.

I dare say I would have probably knocked your Dick off and they would have had to start calling you something else. Dickliss McMoran or something like that.

Also...I used to give your UPS brother Bill Gillin more than you offered him playing one pocket. I added the break to your offer and he didn't care for it after a bit. He is a little snug with his money. He thought/thinks he was/is a hellofa golf player too.

 

[NH Steve]

The author of the book hung out in Florida, and includes mention of Marcel Camp, Johnny Irish and other oldtime legends that seemed to retire there. It is definitely referring to the kind of Golf you all are talking about here.

Incidentally, it talks about a two ball version as well as the one ball per player version.

 

[petie]

Petie,

This may have been another time, I wasn't there, but I think Red ran 10 & out playing Paul five times in one match and maybe 5 times in a row. I could be wrong.

Dennis

Hey Dennis,
Now that I've had a day to think about it, I do believe it was 10 and out 11 times in one day. I got the info from watching an interview with a bunch of legends including Grady, Red, and Weeny Beany among others. Can you imagine how much Red must have won that day? My guess is over $200,000.00. What's yours?

 

[gulfportdoc]

The author of the book hung out in Florida, and includes mention of Marcel Camp, Johnny Irish and other oldtime legends that seemed to retire there. It is definitely referring to the kind of Golf you all are talking about here.

Incidentally, it talks about a two ball version as well as the one ball per player version.

Watch it, Steve. You're going to put Henderson into heat!

Doc

 

[mosconiac]

Incidentally, it talks about a two ball version as well as the one ball per player version.

We played a partners (random draw) version where each partner had a ball & it could be shot by either partner. You'd lag one ball up to your team's next hole (to block & set you up for a run). It put a lot of pressure on CB control and added a whole 'nother level of strategy.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Hey Papie! How ya doin?

I would have loved to have played you golf.<---Only 'til out ran out of $$$$

I dare say I would have probably knocked your Dick off and they would have had to start calling you something else. Dickliss McMoran or something like that. <---They'd be callin' me RICH$$$$$$$$$$$$

Also...I used to give your UPS brother Bill Gillin more than you offered him playing one pocket. I added the break to your offer and he didn't care for it after a bit. He is a little snug with his money. He thought/thinks he was/is a hellofa golf player too.

Then ask him why he refused the side hole, and the break..[/QUOTE]


.....................................

 

[jrhendy]

Were you around House of Billiards when Mexican Ron(Rosas), Rich, Tom, and the other Ron played there?

I ran into Ron Rosas at Plush Pocket in Van Nuys and he remembered me from 35 years ago.

They had a monthly nine ball tournament there that went on for years. I used to go there with Frank "The Barber" Almanza. Ron Rosas was the best player and I would not fool with him, but there was action with the others. I had the other Ron and Rich (Frenchy) playing snooker for $100 a game one time. Jerry Chapel also hung around there and gambled some.