Golf and One Pocket

boingo

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In his interview SJD mentions playing golf up at Cochran's and I've heard an eyewitness account of him playing golf one-handed at the old California Billiard club on Stevens Creek Blvd. That got me to thinking about golf.

There's no golf forum so this is the only place to put this thought. The similarities and differences between golf and OP intrigue me and I'm curious about the observations which others might have in this regard.

In OP one is trying to shoot a sequence of balls into a single pocket whereas in golf one is trying to shoot a single ball into a sequence of pockets. When golf is played as a ring game it brings more clutter onto the table with some of the same effects one sees in OP but, in my opinion, having multiple players at cross purposes overshadows all the other elements at that point.

I remember watching the golf games at the House of Billiards on Santa Monica Blvd. in Los Angeles years ago but even at that tender age my survival instincts were good enough to keep me out of those ring games. There were two categories of players, the scufflers whose faces you recognized from all the other rooms in the area and the old timers who were all at least 90, you know, a little bit younger than SJD and the Beard:heh.
 

petie

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In his interview SJD mentions playing golf up at Cochran's and I've heard an eyewitness account of him playing golf one-handed at the old California Billiard club on Stevens Creek Blvd. That got me to thinking about golf.

There's no golf forum so this is the only place to put this thought. The similarities and differences between golf and OP intrigue me and I'm curious about the observations which others might have in this regard.

In OP one is trying to shoot a sequence of balls into a single pocket whereas in golf one is trying to shoot a single ball into a sequence of pockets. When golf is played as a ring game it brings more clutter onto the table with some of the same effects one sees in OP but, in my opinion, having multiple players at cross purposes overshadows all the other elements at that point.

I remember watching the golf games at the House of Billiards on Santa Monica Blvd. in Los Angeles years ago but even at that tender age my survival instincts were good enough to keep me out of those ring games. There were two categories of players, the scufflers whose faces you recognized from all the other rooms in the area and the old timers who were all at least 90, you know, a little bit younger than SJD and the Beard:heh.
At Earl's Place in Flint, MI they play golf daily on a 6 by 12 foot snooker table. They usually have between 4 and 6 players. I don't play even though the fellas are nice enough to invite me often. What I have observed at Earl's Place and everywhere else I've seen it played is that the rules change all the time. They change from room to room but also they change in the same room from time to time. Moreover, the buddy system can show itself at any time anywhere. And the third nail in the coffin is that there are frequent spats. Not my game of choice.
 

onepocket926

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In his interview SJD mentions playing golf up at Cochran's and I've heard an eyewitness account of him playing golf one-handed at the old California Billiard club on Stevens Creek Blvd. That got me to thinking about golf.

There's no golf forum so this is the only place to put this thought. The similarities and differences between golf and OP intrigue me and I'm curious about the observations which others might have in this regard.

In OP one is trying to shoot a sequence of balls into a single pocket whereas in golf one is trying to shoot a single ball into a sequence of pockets. When golf is played as a ring game it brings more clutter onto the table with some of the same effects one sees in OP but, in my opinion, having multiple players at cross purposes overshadows all the other elements at that point.

I remember watching the golf games at the House of Billiards on Santa Monica Blvd. in Los Angeles years ago but even at that tender age my survival instincts were good enough to keep me out of those ring games. There were two categories of players, the scufflers whose faces you recognized from all the other rooms in the area and the old timers who were all at least 90, you know, a little bit younger than SJD and the Beard:heh.
....I can tell you this (take it for what it's worth)...if your gambling in a
'ring golf game".......make sure the other players...are your speed or better....because if one weak player sells out...he sells out everyone in the game.....

.....you need to be playing with players that have the ability to:

play for thier hole and play the next opponant safe,

yet not so safe as to cause him to sell out,

and not be afraid to take a hicky (the winner doesnt pay hickies so if you play to win....sometimes the smart move is take one)....

.......I saw more money lost and fights start on the 6x12 (at the Billiard Palace in the 60's)...over someone selling out the table....or locking up the next in line forcing him to sell out....

....all in all...next to onepocket....I'm thinkin'.....it a great way to spend an afternoon in the pool hall......
 

jrhendy

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Gold

Gold

Best game to play after one pocket. Especially for us old guys.

No snooker tables around Sacramento so I have to go down to California Billiard Club in Mountain View to get my golf fix.

Golf was a very popular game on the 5 x 10's in So Cal where I grew up. Seems like every bowling alley had a pool room where they played golf. Golf on the 6 x 12 in Bellflower was an action game for years but they ruined the tables and made them too tight. They still play but it is a rough game on that equipment.

I have played golf in several states and the rules are different everywhere, but you still have to get your ball around the table first.
 

gulfportdoc

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.......I saw more money lost and fights start on the 6x12 (at the Billiard Palace in the 60's)...over someone selling out the table....or locking up the next in line forcing him to sell out....
That's true. And of course the funny part is that most games are won by a guy "selling out". That's why we always played that the guy preceding the winner (who "sold out") had to pay double. That kept him from being too frivolous.:rolleyes: I don't know how common that is.

But, no matter, guys still bitched even when someone hadn't played poorly ahead of the winner, but that the winner just came up with a great shot, and got out.:cool:

Doc
 

petie

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That's true. And of course the funny part is that most games are won by a guy "selling out". That's why we always played that the guy preceding the winner (who "sold out") had to pay double. That kept him from being too frivolous.:rolleyes: I don't know how common that is.

But, no matter, guys still bitched even when someone hadn't played poorly ahead of the winner, but that the winner just came up with a great shot, and got out.:cool:

Doc
That's how they play at Earl's Place. Also the 3 hole.
 

onepocket926

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Best game to play after one pocket. Especially for us old guys.

No snooker tables around Sacramento so I have to go down to California Billiard Club in Mountain View to get my golf fix.

Golf was a very popular game on the 5 x 10's in So Cal where I grew up. Seems like every bowling alley had a pool room where they played golf. Golf on the 6 x 12 in Bellflower was an action game for years but they ruined the tables and made them too tight. They still play but it is a rough game on that equipment.

I have played golf in several states and the rules are different everywhere, but you still have to get your ball around the table first.
....LMAO...,...thats the only thing that gave us.....short stops....a chance to beat you champions.....:D
 

onepocket926

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That's true. And of course the funny part is that most games are won by a guy "selling out". That's why we always played that the guy preceding the winner (who "sold out") had to pay double. That kept him from being too frivolous.:rolleyes: I don't know how common that is.

But, no matter, guys still bitched even when someone hadn't played poorly ahead of the winner, but that the winner just came up with a great shot, and got out.:cool:

Doc
.....great idea....but I'd have to carry twice as much money in my pocket.....:D
 

boingo

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Moreover, the buddy system can show itself at any time anywhere.
In LA there was a road player from Arkansas who went by the name of, what else, Eddy. He played in those golf ring games and he once mentioned to me that sometimes a pair of guys would split the game, getting together afterward to cut up the pot.
Here's an off topic question for any of you who have ever spent any time on the road. The normal image is one or two players in a car moving from town to town. LA was a big place and I met more than one out of town player who came there and paid the rent with sporadic jobs like house painting and so forth and then stayed in town for awhile playing around the different rooms. I'm not sure how common this was but I saw more than one example of it.
 

Frank Almanza

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In LA there was a road player from Arkansas who went by the name of, what else, Eddy. He played in those golf ring games and he once mentioned to me that sometimes a pair of guys would split the game, getting together afterward to cut up the pot.
Here's an off topic question for any of you who have ever spent any time on the road. The normal image is one or two players in a car moving from town to town. LA was a big place and I met more than one out of town player who came there and paid the rent with sporadic jobs like house painting and so forth and then stayed in town for awhile playing around the different rooms. I'm not sure how common this was but I saw more than one example of it.
It doesn't take long to see when there's partners in a game. In many places they are quickly 86ed from the game. It's an art for partners to work a game undetected but the good players will eventually see through all that.
In a good games there's good money to be made. For some partners it's well worth the effort.
 

stevelomako

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It doesn't take long to see when there's partners in a game. In many places they are quickly 86ed from the game. It's an art for partners to work a game undetected but the good players will eventually see through all that.
In a good games there's good money to be made. For some partners it's well worth the effort.
In Detroit, the standard rule if you were caught playing partners or cheating at cards was...you sat out a game or a hand.


Why kick someone out for good and ruin the game forever?
 

Frank Almanza

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In Detroit, the standard rule if you were caught playing partners or cheating at cards was...you sat out a game or a hand.


Why kick someone out for good and ruin the game forever?
Most good games usually have players waiting in the wings to get in. I don't agree with the light pusnishment you described. Some games will allow one of the players to stay in but not both in the same game.
 

Miller

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this is an interesting conversation. i have never played a game of golf in my life, but have played a lot of pea pool on a 5x10 snooker table. our weekly game was only $1 ball, but to cut down on any shenanigans, we always shook for a new order on each rack.
 

fred bentivegna

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In Detroit, the standard rule if you were caught playing partners or cheating at cards was...you sat out a game or a hand.


Why kick someone out for good and ruin the game forever?
I used to watch Al Sherman playing Greek Rummy at the Rack in the card room. About every half hour they would have to pick up the cards that were on the floor by Sherman's foot, in order to have enough cards to make the next deal. Sherman was good friends with Harry Oliver. (Only Secret Society members like Cardone, Billy Smith, and probably Androd can translate that). I would be surprised if Lomaka didnt also know who Harry was.

Beard

This story is also slated for the Beard's upcoming book:
My experiences with Sherman weren’t all bad. Once I got one of Al’s pet suckers down playing two- handed pinochle. He was a multi-millionaire but he would only wanted to start off playing for 25 cents a hand! I went for it because I had heard the guy would keep doubling up if he got loser. When the sucker took a bathroom break, Al sidled up to me and said he was going to be my partner in the game. He explained that the sucker liked to play with his own pinochle cards that he kept in the glove box in his car. He also explained that his man had already gotten into the mark’s car and replaced all the decks with marked cards. The marks were big and easy to read, but not for the mark who was old and had glasses with ¼ inch lenses. We progressed from 25 cents a hand to hundreds of dollars a hand, and the guy eventually went for about $4500.
Al was so cold-blooded that he even went to the hospital to rob the guy playing cards while the guy was on his death bed. Al really mourned his death.
 
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rustic

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I can't think of a better way to spend an afternoon than playing golf. It's a fun game, full of good natured ribbing, and everyone enjoys the communal atmosphere. Until you sell out. Or force your man to sell out because you're not paying enough attention to his man. Then, you can risk getting beat to death by a half dozen guys in their sixties and seventies.

onepocket926 is exactly right. I'm usually the weakest player in any game of golf, and while I'm slowly learning, I may end up getting shanked before I develop a comfortable level of skill at it.

Golf is one of the few games that's dodged the Internet boom. You can't buy a book on it (I'd gladly pay Winning One Pocket prices for a copy of a book called Not Sucking at Golf if someone would be kind enough to write it). There aren't any forums devoted to it, and you can't buy videos of any matches that I've found. The only way to learn it is to find a game, learn to play well enough not to get shanked (a hint I've found..when in doubt, playing too safe pisses someone off sometimes, but not playing safe enough pisses everyone off all the time), and pay off like a slot machine until you get it figured out.

And you get free critique. After every shot, someone will tell you how they would have shot it. So you get to see another approach to the problem. And sometimes, they could even have shot it that way themselves.

As a rank newbie at golf, I've found that one pocket books and carom books tend to be the most helpful for figuring out shots. Although no other game seems to need 3/4 railers into the sides quite like golf.

I've always viewed golf as an annuity plan for pool players.. It takes forty years of playing to really shine at it. I'm about six months in, so I've got a ways to go.

Actually, golf is why I come to this forum. Lots of the one-pocket advice tends to carry over pretty well to golf.

-Jeff
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I can't think of a better way to spend an afternoon than playing golf. It's a fun game, full of good natured ribbing, and everyone enjoys the communal atmosphere. Until you sell out. Or force your man to sell out because you're not paying enough attention to his man. Then, you can risk getting beat to death by a half dozen guys in their sixties and seventies.

one pocket 926 is exactly right. I'm usually the weakest player in any game of golf, and while I'm slowly learning, I may end up getting shanked before I develop a comfortable level of skill at it.

Golf is one of the few games that's dodged the Internet boom. You can't buy a book on it (I'd gladly pay Winning One Pocket prices for a copy of a book called Not Sucking at Golf if someone would be kind enough to write it). There aren't any forums devoted to it, and you can't buy videos of any matches that I've found. The only way to learn it is to find a game, learn to play well enough not to get shanked (a hint I've found..when in doubt, playing too safe pisses someone off sometimes, but not playing safe enough pisses everyone off all the time), and pay off like a slot machine until you get it figured out.

And you get free critique. After every shot, someone will tell you how they would have shot it. So you get to see another approach to the problem. And sometimes, they could even have shot it that way themselves.

As a rank newbie at golf, I've found that one pocket books and carom books tend to be the most helpful for figuring out shots. Although no other game seems to need 3/4 trailers into the sides quite like golf.

I've always viewed golf as an annuity plan for pool players.. It takes forty years of playing to really shine at it. I'm about six months in, so I've got a ways to go.

Actually, golf is why I come to this forum. Lots of the one-pocket advice tends to carry over pretty well to golf.

-Jeff
This is a very good evaluation of Golf. I'll add a couple of observations.

Golf, with more than 2 players is a joke, a complete farce. It doesn't even make any type logical sense why anyone would play it. Think about it: "Player A" has to play "Player B" safe enough so he can't win or advance but loose enough so he can play "Player C" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player D" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player E" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player F" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player A" safe. In essence, you have to shoot every shot to leave yourself safe?:confused: What the hell kind of game is that? It's a timekiller, that's all.

P.S. I say this having played many Golf games with multiple players. One of the best Golf games I've ever seen involved Cornbread, Naif, Beyerlein, Shaky and a few others I can't recall right now but it was a non-argumentative, well-played game and it was enjoyable to watch. Everybody shot the right shot and hit it well. I don't know what happened when I wasn't there.

Dennis
 

rustic

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This is a very good evaluation of Golf. I'll add a couple of observations.

Golf, with more than 2 players is a joke, a complete farce. It doesn't even make any type logical sense why anyone would play it. Think about it: "Player A" has to play "Player B" safe enough so he can't win or advance but loose enough so he can play "Player C" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player D" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player E" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player F" safe but loose enough so he can play "Player A" safe. In essence, you have to shoot every shot to leave yourself safe?:confused: What the hell kind of game is that? It's a timekiller, that's all.
Dennis
All of the above is horribly true. Defense + more-than-two-players = confusing

That being said, it does seem to have some redeeming qualities, assuming you're not looking for sanity or consistency in a game:

1. It's a game that centers around shooting shots that you have no business shooting. Want to try a risky four railer? As long as you leave your man safe, go ahead. Even if it's off by a mile, if your speed is right, and it lands somewhere close to your hole, everyone is legally bound to nod and acknowledge that it showed poise, grace, and really wasn't a bad try. In a one pocket game, if you even thought about a crazy shot like that, people on the rail would be dialing their friends, saying "You can't believe this idiot.. Come down here quick, and bring cash!"

2. It's the only game I've played with more than three people that has any concept of defense. Ring games, payball, etc are pure shooting. Hell, it's really just a ring safety game. And who wouldn't wanna dive right in to a ring safety game?

3. While the game itself moves slowly, with strong players, it can end really, really quickly. So once a strong player is in a position to run out, the game goes nuclear, with leading players trying to catch up, lagging players trying to cover the monster that follows them, and temporary alliances are formed. Then betrayed. Then formed again.

4. It's fairly unique in positioning and safeties, because each player has to hit a different ball first. And they have to make it in a single hole. So you get the difficulty of safeties in rotation games, but on a per-player basis. Still pissed at that one guy that sold out last week? You can bury his ball, shoot at your hole, and hold your man, if you can only figure out how much rolloff there is and whether your eight-railer will clear that ball.. Of course, this is all tempered by local "what happens when you're hooked" rules.

5. The table is playing, too: No game in the history of the world has focused more group hatred at a poor, inanimate snooker table than golf. With fast cloth, every imperfection is magnified, and pool balls meeting snooker rails and bends, the table gets a lot of focus. Hearing two golfers discuss a table always reminds me of Houstonites, who always end up talking about traffic and how to get where. If the Eskimos had a dozen words for snow, I think golfers need a dozen for rolloff.

The exact weird group concept of defense that you illustrate is what actually makes golf what it is, the only social pool game I've ever found. Without that, it just ends up as another "hey, nice shot" all-offense game. And bottle pool would be much more fun at that point.

-Jeff
 

Cowboy Dennis

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All of the above is horribly true. Defense + more-than-two-players = confusing

That being said, it does seem to have some redeeming qualities, assuming you're not looking for sanity or consistency in a game:

1. It's a game that centers around shooting shots that you have no business shooting. Want to try a risky four railer? As long as you leave your man safe, go ahead. Even if it's off by a mile, if your speed is right, and it lands somewhere close to your hole, everyone is legally bound to nod and acknowledge that it showed poise, grace, and really wasn't a bad try. In a one pocket game, if you even thought about a crazy shot like that, people on the rail would be dialing their friends, saying "You can't believe this idiot.. Come down here quick, and bring cash!"

2. It's the only game I've played with more than three people that has any concept of defense. Ring games, payball, etc are pure shooting. Hell, it's really just a ring safety game. And who wouldn't wanna dive right in to a ring safety game?

3. While the game itself moves slowly, with strong players, it can end really, really quickly. So once a strong player is in a position to run out, the game goes nuclear, with leading players trying to catch up, lagging players trying to cover the monster that follows them, and temporary alliances are formed. Then betrayed. Then formed again.

4. It's fairly unique in positioning and safeties, because each player has to hit a different ball first. And they have to make it in a single hole. So you get the difficulty of safeties in rotation games, but on a per-player basis. Still pissed at that one guy that sold out last week? You can bury his ball, shoot at your hole, and hold your man, if you can only figure out how much rolloff there is and whether your eight-railer will clear that ball.. Of course, this is all tempered by local "what happens when you're hooked" rules.

5. The table is playing, too: No game in the history of the world has focused more group hatred at a poor, inanimate snooker table than golf. With fast cloth, every imperfection is magnified, and pool balls meeting snooker rails and bends, the table gets a lot of focus. Hearing two golfers discuss a table always reminds me of Houstonites, who always end up talking about traffic and how to get where. If the Eskimos had a dozen words for snow, I think golfers need a dozen for rolloff.

The exact weird group concept of defense that you illustrate is what actually makes golf what it is, the only social pool game I've ever found. Without that, it just ends up as another "hey, nice shot" all-offense game. And bottle pool would be much more fun at that point.

-Jeff
Jeff,

You have an extremely insightful outlook on Golf for a "rank newbie":D

Dennis
 

boingo

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While the game itself moves slowly, with strong players, it can end really, really quickly.
I can't testify to this but I heard a story about Arturo Rivera running six and out in a golf game at House of Billiards in Santa Monica one time. It seems like a supernatural feat to someone like me.
 

SJDinPHX

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I can't testify to this but I heard a story about Arturo Rivera running six and out in a golf game at House of Billiards in Santa Monica one time. It seems like a supernatural feat to someone like me.
Almost every post in this thread has some very factual insights into the game of golf. It has always been one of my favorite games. It tends to be a lousy ring game, for the most part, unless the stakes are high enough, and the skill levels are fairly close, AND you are quite sure there is no 'funny business' going on. I much prefered head-up, or partners, even if I had to give up a little weight.
The variance in rules, can be a huge distraction. Most smart room owners try to keep them oriented toward playing safe (easily) and amassing dozens of hickeys, and 5 or 6 handed games can go on for hours, specially on a fairly tight 6 X 12.
Where there are plenty of good player's, they usually establish a good, workable set of rules........(unfortunately Hendy, LA
is NOT one of them).:(...The rules quite often will vary (in the same room) from a head-up game, to a ring game...The reasons for that, should be quite obvious...The other 'house rule' in many places was, (if they had enough tables) there would be an "open table" and a table where the 'A' players were NOT welcome. The pecking order was usually well established.
I became quite proficient at the game, at a fairly young age, mostly due to geography. Where I was raised, it was only a tank of gas or so, to Alburquque, Denver, or Salt Lake City..where, in my younger days, Golf was the established game of choice..

I easily converted to one pocket, on a snooker table, when it started becoming popular, but it was some time before I finally learned to defend myself at it on a pool table..Believe me,They are two COMPLETELY different games...Running more than
3 or 4 balls, is a rarity, 8 and out, is almost non-exsistent.

I never cared much for ring games (unless I was stealing) Also, golf is really best played on a 6 X 12, which started to become quite rare some years ago...There used to be one or two in almost every room.. However, where I live now (Phoenix) with a metro area of over 3 million, and several dozen pool rooms, there are now ZERO 6 X 12's and only two, 5 x 10 snooker tables in the whole city.

I gotta go now..I will close with a slight brag, (one for you Fred, only 2 witnesses still above ground though) :rolleyes:...I have run six pockets more times than I can remember, but my real high point occured in the late 50's, in SLC...Fairly early in the match, I ran six pockets, on a fairly snug 6 X 12..."back to back". I think John Henderson may be the only one on here, who may recognize the difficulty factor in that. Probably similar to rolling two 300 games in a row...By the way, the guy I was playing (head-up) didn't quit..We played for about 8-10 hours, for $50/5, then $100/10 and broke DEAD EVEN..His name was "Popeye" Archuleta, from Alburqurque...He golfed his ball pretty good too ! :rolleyes:...I got me some Golf stories..more later..:)
 
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