Ghost vs. Tony 3 wwyd

onepockethacker

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I just want to say that I truly love all you guys all joking aside... part of the attraction of a poolroom is the needling and shiit talking and I can say you guys have some thick skin.. You never know what tomorrow brings so I just wanted to say sorry if I offended any of you its all meant in joking.. I actually like to teach if people want to learn so with that being said......
 

wincardona

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I tried both the 12 ball and the 15 ball using a natural angle to get on the eight. The 12 ball is by far harder to do. You need a bigger angle with the cue ball and have to hit it much softer, making it harder to control the cue ball.
The 15 ball can be hit much fuller because the shot is straighter.

The big difference is the placement of the cue ball. It's a bit over two feet difference between the two shots. Anyone that tries both balls like I did will agree with me.
This is a very interesting situation because of the position of the 12ball and 8ball. There's nothing natural about going from the 12ball to the 8ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball if you're choosing this route and that's where your problems begin. Same problems going from the 12ball to either the 10ball or 15ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball. If the 12ball was laying on the angle that a soft follow would produce position on the 8ball and a med. speed follow would produce position on the two stripes then starting with the 12ball would be a "no brainer" With this understanding you now have a reason to look at the two combinations that are available and weigh up the degree of difficulty either combination produces. Another huge factor in deciding the correct shot would be the pocket size and how forgiving the pockets are you're shooting into. Obviously with forgiving pockets the combinations are much more appealing then on smaller pockets and it wouldn't be wrong (imo) to start the run shooting one of the combinations. If I were to start with one of the combinations it would be the one Tyler chose, 14ball into the 13ball. This combination if pocketed will open up the table nicely and offer the shooter a multitude of options to complete the run. Also by choosing the 14-13ball combination there's a good chance that if it's missed you won't give up a good return shot to your opponent, which should be factored into the equation when choosing options.

Now, i'm in total agreement with the players that would start with the 12ball and play position for the 8ball...if a soft follow would produce natural position for the 8ball, however, I don't believe that's the case.
Dr. Bill

The angle from the 12ball to the 8ball is problematic, there's no natural follow to get there which means that playing from the 12ball to either the 10ball or 15ball now requires a below center hit on the cue ball with a med to med. hard speed. This stroke then makes it difficult to play position for the 10ball or 15ball with out running the risk to over run your position.

Playing position for the 8ball off the 12ball needs to be hit with a draw stroke sending the cue ball to the side rail, that's the only way to play that option. If you're confident that you can execute that shot and end up in reasonable line for the 8ball then it's a viable option. For those that don't like that shot should seriously think about playing one of the two combinations, which both have a huge up side.

Playing the spot shot (15ball) with a soft roll will decrease the accuracy of the shot too much for me to choose it as an option considering that I face a four ball deficit, that option imo would be better suited if the score was tied or if I were in the lead.

Playing the score in one pocket is a tool that will aid us in choosing the better option when ever there are several options to choose from. In this situation trailing by four balls emphasis should be placed on choosing the option that lends to running balls as opposed to playing a lock down shot. You have ball in hand with several good options to get some balls, it's time to go..imo

Dr. Bill
 

One Pocket Ghost

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OK Ghost your mouth has overloaded your ass again... you got me... when do you want to shoot the 1 3 combo.. you have to make 19 out of 20 to win (95%) right?:rolleyes:
I want to shoot it tomorrow..let me know what time your plane gets in and I'll pick you up at the airport...:heh
 

One Pocket Ghost

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I'll send a helicopter for him if he wants to shoot at 18 outta 20 here in Houston, that's 90% and he ain't just anybody!

P.S. Forgot my smiley face!!
Jeff...now you wouldn't go and turn off the air conditioning in the room before the Ghost got there to fire in his 18 outta 20, would ya..:eek:...:rolleyes:
 

tylerdurden

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If you go all out here and shoot your favorite shot and are sure to get on a ball if you make it, you shot the right shot. You go at the win here in this inning and you shot coerrectly. If you are half ducking you shot the wrong shot I think. We've all seen it a million times players thinking defense shoot balls into the rail, players thinking offense only win when they are supposed to.

One pocket is a defensive game but in a spot like this it turns into much like a game of nine ball and you just shoot to win.
 
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keoneyo

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Slow rolling anything from the kitchen is weak.

The angle from the 12 to the 8 is not problematic.
If you were playing straight rail billiards hitting the 5 from the 12 is a hanger.
We are not talking about extreme draw. A light draw will do the job.
Hit the 5 square in the face and the 8 is there. Your opponent will hate you.
This is a common shot in one pocket.
Spot shot with a ball in your opponent's hole. Shoot the spot shot and remove the ball by your opponents hole. This is a simpler version of the shot.

If Im spotting you 11 to 7 Im praying you go for the combination.
 

onepockethacker

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All you have to do is put the cue ball to make the 12 as straight as you can then you shoot with a stop shot for christ sake.. your cue ball is going to float right down to the end rail...
 

Frank Almanza

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Ok, I was going under the assumption that we were to put ourselves in Tony's shoes. (the shooter in this thread) Him being 72 and not having the abilities that that most of you have. Age, I'm sure has taken a toll on his game.

I'm past that age so I can relate. Of course the shot on the twelve is the best option with a little stun to get on the eight even if we have to hit the five ball. But at our age that shot is not as easy anymore like it used to be. The shot on the 12 at one time was at an extremely high percentage for me but these days I miss it enough times that unless I fell good about it I would shy away from it.

I think that when you get older and your abilities start to fade a bit you start looking for other options. Someday most of you will understand what I'm saying.
 

keoneyo

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All you have to do is put the cue ball to make the 12 as straight as you can then you shoot with a stop shot for christ sake.. your cue ball is going to float right down to the end rail...
I think the 10 prevents you from getting as straight as you say.
 

keoneyo

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Ok, I was going under the assumption that we were to put ourselves in Tony's shoes. (the shooter in this thread) Him being 72 and not having the abilities that that most of you have. Age, I'm sure has taken a toll on his game.

I'm past that age so I can relate. Of course the shot on the twelve is the best option with a little stun to get on the eight even if we have to hit the five ball. But at our age that shot is not as easy anymore like it used to be. The shot on the 12 at one time was at an extremely high percentage for me but these days I miss it enough times that unless I fell good about it I would shy away from it.

I think that when you get older and your abilities start to fade a bit you start looking for other options. Someday most of you will understand what I'm saying.
Well if thats the case why not just cross the 5 to your side of the table and leaving whitey on the Brunswick?
Then you have all the balls on your side and you give up nothing.
I seen you shoot youre much better than what you are saying.
In 9 ball Ive seen you fire that shot in like drinking water.
 

beatle

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since you are down by four balls you shoot the 12 especially because by playing position for the 8 you get to clear out the 8 and the 5. now go back to the picture and look at the table with the 12, 8, and 5 gone. he now has nothing near his hole. that is what one pocket is about. not covering yourself to get one ball and not give up the game if you miss when down by four balls.

you must make a winning shot if you get a good chance at one. here it is.

sorry jeff your shot of coming up above leaves those two balls there and if you dont get out or close to it you are on the defense again. at least you see that floating down the table is close to suicide. and i bet anyone after trying it a few times will see the draw is really easy and a shot every one pocket player has to shoot often. as a matter of fact if i am shooting just a spot shot i am drawing the cue ball across and hitting it firm. jeff recognizes that as he stopped rob at that point.

ill shoot one handed spot shots and ghost can shoot his combo. my money is on me. although ghost wasnt really saying he would make 95% on the combo but he likes the shot and it can have merit. but imo not when losing 4 zip..
 

Jeff sparks

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I just want to say that I truly love all you guys all joking aside... part of the attraction of a poolroom is the needling and shiit talking and I can say you guys have some thick skin.. You never know what tomorrow brings so I just wanted to say sorry if I offended any of you its all meant in joking.. I actually like to teach if people want to learn so with that being said......

Was asleep when you posted this last night, "What's Up?" You gettin soft hearted all of a sudden??? I was just starting to get used to your brash braggadocio swagger and now you go and spoil it by showing you really do care about other people's feelings! And yep, you'd have to be blind not to see that you do know the game very well and like to teach!

Keep the fire, drop the mush!

Thanks Rob
 

Jeff sparks

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Jeff...now you wouldn't go and turn off the air conditioning in the room before the Ghost got there to fire in his 18 outta 20, would ya..:eek:...:rolleyes:
Just sayin....

It's always damp to wet here, no need to cut off the a/c, the separation of those two balls appears to be about 18" or so, even with the optimum rail clearance of 1/8" on each ball, Danny Smith or Efren in his prime would hit the powerball lotto back to back before they made 19 outta 20 here in Houston. Here it's not a hanger, for anybody!
 

Jeff sparks

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The angle from the 12ball to the 8ball is problematic, there's no natural follow to get there which means that playing from the 12ball to either the 10ball or 15ball now requires a below center hit on the cue ball with a med to med. hard speed. This stroke then makes it difficult to play position for the 10ball or 15ball with out running the risk to over run your position.

Playing position for the 8ball off the 12ball needs to be hit with a draw stroke sending the cue ball to the side rail, that's the only way to play that option. If you're confident that you can execute that shot and end up in reasonable line for the 8ball then it's a viable option. For those that don't like that shot should seriously think about playing one of the two combinations, which both have a huge up side.

Playing the spot shot (15ball) with a soft roll will decrease the accuracy of the shot too much for me to choose it as an option considering that I face a four ball deficit, that option imo would be better suited if the score was tied or if I were in the lead.

Playing the score in one pocket is a tool that will aid us in choosing the better option when ever there are several options to choose from. In this situation trailing by four balls emphasis should be placed on choosing the option that lends to running balls as opposed to playing a lock down shot. You have ball in hand with several good options to get some balls, it's time to go..imo

Dr. Bill
Sorry Bill,

But we are in different camps on this one. Going from the 12 to above the 15/10 with a below center CB is not necessary, you gotta be able to see that, ball in hand, you can easily place the CB for a medium speed follow stroke to get above the 10.
And the 13 combo.... with that amount of separation.... I dunno, I might have a muscle spasm!

If for any reason I doubted I could pocket the 12 and get above the 10/15 with a follow stroke, ( which i wouldn't ) I would still shoot the 12 and play for the 8/5 with a stun. It's obviously a very good WWYD because it brings out all the different options and their explanations.

One of your best Ghost,
and good camera work too!
Thanks
 

wincardona

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Just sayin....

It's always damp to wet here, no need to cut off the a/c, the separation of those two balls appears to be about 18" or so, even with the optimum rail clearance of 1/8" on each ball, Danny Smith or Efren in his prime would hit the powerball lotto back to back before they made 19 outta 20 here in Houston. Here it's not a hanger, for anybody!
Jeff, the distance between the balls in the combination look to be around 12" (1 diamond apart) that's what i'm basing my opinion on. I also stated that the pocket size and how forgiving the pockets are on the table your playing on has a lot to do with whether you should consider the combination as an option.
This is a very interesting situation because of the position of the 12ball and 8ball. There's nothing natural about going from the 12ball to the 8ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball if you're choosing this route and that's where your problems begin. Same problems going from the 12ball to either the 10ball or 15ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball. If the 12ball was laying on the angle that a soft follow would produce position on the 8ball and a med. speed follow would produce position on the two stripes then starting with the 12ball would be a "no brainer" With this understanding you now have a reason to look at the two combinations that are available and weigh up the degree of difficulty either combination produces. Another huge factor in deciding the correct shot would be the pocket size and how forgiving the pockets are you're shooting into. Obviously with forgiving pockets the combinations are much more appealing then on smaller pockets and it wouldn't be wrong (imo) to start the run shooting one of the combinations. If I were to start with one of the combinations it would be the one Tyler chose, 14ball into the 13ball. This combination if pocketed will open up the table nicely and offer the shooter a multitude of options to complete the run. Also by choosing the 14-13ball combination there's a good chance that if it's missed you won't give up a good return shot to your opponent, which should be factored into the equation when choosing options.

Now, i'm in total agreement with the players that would start with the 12ball and play position for the 8ball...if a soft follow would produce natural position for the 8ball, however, I don't believe that's the case.

Dr. Bill

Fella's, I understand the difficulties in playing combinations, however, not all combinations are the same, some are difficult and some are not so difficult. A combination should be viewed like any other shot, in terms of estimating the degree of difficulty that the shot carries. I mentioned that I thought a decent player would be a 75% favorite to pocket the combination on a table with forgiving pockets and a good ball striker could be as high as 90% shooting into a forgiving pocket. Based off of that projection I believe that the combinations available are a very viable option, especially when you consider that either combination carries guaranteed position along with it.


The combination is straight in no more than 12" apart, for a decent ball striker you have to be a 75% favorite to make it and for a good ball striker more in the line of close to 90%.

If you want to call your next ball i'll take a player like Danny Smith and he'll start out with the combo and you can start out with the 12ball to the 8ball. Would that be something you like? ...Waiting for your answer..

Dr. Bill
Bottom line If i'm a 80% favorite to pocket a shot, whether it's a combination, a carom, or a straight shot that carries automatic position, plus it opens the table up for a multitude of options in proceeding, trailing by four balls or more, it's certainly imo a very viable option.

We are now close to 100 post in this thread, and I would like to think that I have gotten my point across. I'm not saying that the 12ball to the 8ball is the wrong shot, however, I am saying for the "umteenth" time..LOOK ABOVE


Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Sorry Bill,

But we are in different camps on this one. Going from the 12 to above the 15/10 with a below center CB is not necessary, you gotta be able to see that, ball in hand, you can easily place the CB for a medium speed follow stroke to get above the 10.
And the 13 combo.... with that amount of separation.... I dunno, I might have a muscle spasm!

If for any reason I doubted I could pocket the 12 and get above the 10/15 with a follow stroke, ( which i wouldn't ) I would still shoot the 12 and play for the 8/5 with a stun. It's obviously a very good WWYD because it brings out all the different options and their explanations.

One of your best Ghost,
and good camera work too!
Thanks
Jeff, i'm assuming, like I stated in my earlier post that you cannot follow naturally between the 8ball and 5ball with a high ball. If that's true then you need to hit below center which in turn will put your cue ball at risk. Navigating your cue ball from the angle we see hitting below center will clearly send the cue ball closer to the 5ball after departing from the bottom rail, agreed? With that understanding the angle going into the desired area for position will be much steeper and problematic, with speed now becoming a crucial and demanding part of the shot. That's what i'm referring to when I say that the shot is problematic.

Now if the shooter could use a high ball and shorten the angle off the bottom rail then the option of playing position for either the 10ball or 15ball now becomes a very appealing way of playing this position.
This is a very interesting situation because of the position of the 12ball and 8ball. There's nothing natural about going from the 12ball to the 8ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball if you're choosing this route and that's where your problems begin. Same problems going from the 12ball to either the 10ball or 15ball, you need to draw away from the 8ball. If the 12ball was laying on the angle that a soft follow would produce position on the 8ball and a med. speed follow would produce position on the two stripes then starting with the 12ball would be a "no brainer" With this understanding you now have a reason to look at the two combinations that are available and weigh up the degree of difficulty either combination produces. Another huge factor in deciding the correct shot would be the pocket size and how forgiving the pockets are you're shooting into. Obviously with forgiving pockets the combinations are much more appealing then on smaller pockets and it wouldn't be wrong (imo) to start the run shooting one of the combinations. If I were to start with one of the combinations it would be the one Tyler chose, 14ball into the 13ball. This combination if pocketed will open up the table nicely and offer the shooter a multitude of options to complete the run. Also by choosing the 14-13ball combination there's a good chance that if it's missed you won't give up a good return shot to your opponent, which should be factored into the equation when choosing options.

Now, i'm in total agreement with the players that would start with the 12ball and play position for the 8ball...if a soft follow would produce natural position for the 8ball, however, I don't believe that's the case.

Dr. Bill
Maybe i'm wrong about the problem going from the 12ball to either the 8ball or the 10 or 15ball, but if i'm right then i'm strongly considering shooting one of the combinations.

Now going from the 12ball to the 8ball you at least have the option to draw the cue ball to the side rail, a luxury that your option doesn't have, which now makes that option much more appealing for the shooter.

Dr. Bill
 
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Jeff sparks

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Jeff, i'm assuming, like I stated in my earlier post that you cannot follow naturally between the 8ball and 5ball with a high ball. If that's true then you need to hit below center which in turn will put your cue ball at risk. Navigating your cue ball from the angle we see hitting below center will clearly send the cue ball closer to the 5ball after departing from the bottom rail, agreed? With that understanding the angle going into the desired area for position will be much steeper and problematic, with speed now becoming a crucial and demanding part of the shot. That's what i'm referring to when I say that the shot is problematic.

Now if the shooter could use a high ball and shorten the angle off the bottom rail then the option of playing position for either the 10ball or 15ball now becomes a very appealing way of playing this position.


Maybe i'm wrong about the problem going from the 12ball to either the 8ball or the 10 or 15ball, but if i'm right then i'm strongly considering shooting one of the combinations.

Now going from the 12ball to the 8ball you at least have the option to draw the cue ball to the side rail, a luxury that your option doesn't have, which now makes that option much more appealing for the shooter.

Dr. Bill
With the follow off the 12 I'm coming off the foot rail to the right of the 8 ball, and falling on the 10/15 with medium speed, I don't know why you can't see that?
 

onepockethacker

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I think the 10 prevents you from getting as straight as you say.
I didn't say straight.. I said as straight as you can, hat leaves the perfect angle to hit it with just a stop shot stroke and the cue ball will float perfectly.. The shot is a fuccking hanger
 

onepockethacker

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I think/hope I have figured out Billys concerns or doubts about shooting the 8... He mjust not realize he has BALL IN HAND:frus:frus YOU DONT HAVE TO SHOOT IT FROM WHERE IT LAYS
 
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