Ghost vs. John 46 wwyd?

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Excellent points Whitey. This position suggest that you find a shot that will protect your position or force your opponent to play passively allowing you back at the table to improve your position. This type of strategy is too often overlooked which in turn will cost him losing his position and possibly losing the game by allowing his opponent back at the table to turn the tables.

In situations where we are trying to force an offensive shot (like this one) that is risky and low percentage (think 11ball) try to look to do something simple that will protect your position and make your opponent work to keep in pace with you. This is the type of defense that too often is not recognized and the type of defense that has your opponent scratching his head and saying to himself " How can he keep beating me he doesn't do anything special" Players refer to that as a subtle strong move.;) patience is a virtue.

Banking the 11ball into the 3ball should be an option, this shot looks to improve your position with little risk but the upside is more than enough to choose this option. Any other shot off the 11ball is asking for trouble.

Dr. Bill
Dr. Bill, your statement starting with; 'In situations', exemplifies Dennis's approach and execution of his match with Tony! Beautifully stated!!!
There was many a time where Dennis could of done an offensive shot but chose to maintain his position with defense. After contemplating this match I concluded that Tony needs a defensive minded coach in his corner, Dr. Bill! Whitey
 

wincardona

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To answer your question, it isn't. I liked the 3-ball ticky until realizing that if the CB crept up the rail, it would likely leave a free 7-ball bank for the opponent. Tom too has changed his preference to the 11-ball straight back into the 3. That's probably a real good shot, although for me it would take some courage to pull the trigger on that one.

[disclaimer: I haven't taken any of these shots to the table]

But here are the better points of the two 8-ball shots:

In your shot, if the CB can be left in the vicinity of the side rail 1st diamond, then the opponent will not likely attempt a bank of the 5 or 6 balls, because if missed it would move stuff towards the opponent's hole; and even if one of those banks were made, there's no follow-up.

In my shot the CB rolls to either on, near, or behind the 3 ball, while the 8 rolls up in the way, blocking a possible return bank of the 5 or 6, and leaving the 8 in a more advantageous position for the shooter. My shot seems easier.

The downsides: Your shot takes the touch of Efren (or Cardone's) to get the CB to the first diamond, and it banks the 8 uptable, possibly even taking the 7 with it. In my shot, it's possible that either the 5 or 6 could be bank-combo'd into the 9.

So, all things being equal, it's a "pick 'em".

~Doc
Doc once again I would like to reiterate the natural spinning off the 8ball as the easiest shot to execute. Tom doesn't seem to understand but believe me its a natural middle ball side spin using right english going across the 8ball. This shot is a no brainer, you must try it. Positioning the cue ball where I described is a clear advantage for the shooter.

I haven't tried your shot but the angle to me suggest that you would have to control both the 8ball and the cue ball for the shot to be effective. If it happens to play out like you say then it's a very viable option. IMO, your option is asking too much when you have a simple roll off the 8ball. It's consistency that will get you paid in situations like this one.

The 3ball kick ticky is IMO, not on my menu of options because there aren't enough benefits with the option to off set the problems that may occur.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Bill, In the image below you will see two black dots on the far side rail. Each dot is approx. 3 inches to either side of the first diamond. I assume you mean to leave the cue ball nearer the dot on the left because if you leave it near the right hand dot i'm banking the six. I know you wouldn't do that. Okay so far? Now, as you correctly say, I have two options. I can play off the six or off the nine. You said you played the return shot be skimming off the nine and sold out a bank on the six. Right? I asked you why would you do that knowing your will have that six ball bank and the five to prevent the cue ball escaping up table?

I see two responses to your eight ball position shot. 1. skim off the six using the cluster as cover protecting the three or 2. Make a fairly full hit on the nine clearing it with a firm stroke and a touch of left english leaving the cue ball along the foot rail about 1/2 diamond from the side rail. Now if you wish to bank the six from there you can still hold the cue ball from escaping up table but there is no reward beyond that one ball because there are no follow up shots, and that bank is not anywhere near as easy as the one you gave up skimming off the nine.

As to the three ball ticky shot.
I admitted earlier that I had overlooked the possibility of the cue ball stopping upon hitting the three ball full on the two rail kick from the foot rail. In most cases in setting it up I was successful in creating a powerful position but not always. That is why I deferred to the bank ticky using the eleven ball. In this case the shot was extremely effective every time I tried it. It was easy to execute and hold the cue ball close to the top rail. I even intentionally played the shot to strike the three one rail instead of two and it still came out good. Both balls traveled predictably to the opposite side of the table and created big trouble for the poor sucker who had to deal with it.

Bottom line for my way of thinking is your shot is fine if you don't mind creating an up table game. Personally I try to avoid those type games unless I just want to squeeze the guy.

Sorry, but from these images I still don't see how you can get the cue ball there spinning it with a follow stroke.
Tom
Firstly, Tom, no one including Tony Chohan is going to bank the 6ball from the position referenced. I shot this shot at least 10 times using a center right soft spin and every time I landed close to the rail slightly above the 1st. diamond. From there the 6ball bank would not be considered.

Secondly, on your return shot playing off the 9ball forcing the cue ball forward needs the exact angle and not only that it's a very difficult shot to control the speed with the cue ball shooting it if you happen to have the angle needed to execute the shot. Also if you're able to control the speed and direction with the force follow you run the risk of leaving straight back bank on either the 7ball or 8ball.

Hopefully you can now see the advantages of playing off the 8ball if anything I have preserved my position and I'm making you work to stay out of trouble. Go too far with the cue ball you leave the return bank on the 6ball, go too short with your return option you leave the 3ball exposed or a straight back bank on either the 7ball or 8ball.

This in itself is enough to choose the 8ball option because it's consistent with preserving your position and making your opponent work to stay out of trouble. What other option carries the benefits that this option carries?

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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Doc once again I would like to reiterate the natural spinning off the 8ball as the easiest shot to execute. Tom doesn't seem to understand but believe me its a natural middle ball side spin using right english going across the 8ball. This shot is a no brainer, you must try it. Positioning the cue ball where I described is a clear advantage for the shooter.

I haven't tried your shot but the angle to me suggest that you would have to control both the 8ball and the cue ball for the shot to be effective. If it happens to play out like you say then it's a very viable option. IMO, your option is asking too much when you have a simple roll off the 8ball. It's consistency that will get you paid in situations like this one.

The 3ball kick ticky is IMO, not on my menu of options because there aren't enough benefits with the option to off set the problems that may occur.

Dr. Bill
Doc I went to my table and shot your shot 4 times here are my results. #1 The first time the cue ball came up short from dropping behind the 3ball and sold out a cross corner on the 5ball because the 8ball didn't block the lane. #2. The cue ball fell slightly in back of the 3ball but not enough to snooker my opponent from seeing the 5ball so I banked the 5ball softly into the 8ball and lived with the results. #3. This time the cue ball fell in back of the 3ball hiding both the 5 and 6ball so I kicked to the bottom rail and moved the 8ball to the side rail protecting my 3ball in the process. #4. Once again the cue ball fell half way in back of the 3ball hiding the 5ball but not the 6ball, so I crossed the 6ball cutting it thinly not to make it but to get it to my side and spin to the side rail with the cue ball. The 8ball didn't move enough off the bottom rail to preclude me from playing my return on my #4 shot.

I concluded that the shot is an option but not a strong option because of the difficulty controlling both the 8ball and cue ball. Like I mentioned earler and should be respected that consistency with the move is where you will get paid off, your option falls short in that area. The kick ticky on the 3ball doesn't compete because there isn't much consistency with the option and the leaves are questionable.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Ghost, don't you have anything to add to this debate? Two heads are better than one even if one's a cabbage head.:) Three heads or four heads would be even better.

Dr. Bill
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Dr. Bill's Shot!

Dr. Bill's Shot!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/abAweaYF9PtvZb78A
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BGoFRFRLL44Wzu8S6
Click on video to get sound.
When Bill first posted this shot, I was very much under the impression that it was 'not' possible to get the cb to stay by the 1st diamond, but as you can see it is very possible, and I even got it to stay below the diamond.
I wish I would of hit it a tad softer, this would left more angle on the 6, plus the 8 would of travel just a little less. But there is something to be said about freezing the cb to the rail.
Sure glad I did not post this shot is not possible, it is not good to second guess Bill! Thanks, Bill! Whitey

Oh, the cb is 6" from it's edge to the cushion off the rail, and for those that wonder how I went around the 3 when banking the 11 into it, "it can happen". It also happened in the foot rail ticky on the 3. I have the 3, 3" from it's edge to the cushion. I think I have this layout pretty close.
 
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Tom Wirth

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Billy is calling for reinforcements!
WE've all heard of Arnie's Army

Now we have Billy's Brigade!

::frus:frus:frus:frus
I guess I need to call on Tommy's Troup

:D:D:D:D

Tom
 

wincardona

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Billy is calling for reinforcements!
WE've all heard of Arnie's Army

Now we have Billy's Brigade!

::frus:frus:frus:frus
I guess I need to call on Tommy's Troup

:D:D:D:D

Tom
I'm going to call on you next after you wake up. :D

Dr. Bill
 

beatle

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no question in my mind bill's shot off the 8 ball is clearly the best shot if you want to leave him down table and his choice .

my shot with the combo bank 11 into the 3 is the best shot for leaving him up table and my choice.

which would be better?. the one you hit best and how your opponent plays determines that.
 

gulfportdoc

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I concluded that the shot is an option but not a strong option because of the difficulty controlling both the 8ball and cue ball. Like I mentioned earler and should be respected that consistency with the move is where you will get paid off, your option falls short in that area. The kick ticky on the 3ball doesn't compete because there isn't much consistency with the option and the leaves are questionable. Dr. Bill
I agree that your shot does not leave an inviting offensive return shot for the opponent. But looking at Whitey's vid, notice that before the shot both the 7 and 8 balls could be made in the shooter's pocket. Now, after the shot, both balls are taken out of position to be made. The CB can now be left uptable with impunity by the opponent.

But at least it shows me that anyone with an accomplished stroke (like you and Whitey) can leave the CB where you attested that it could be left...:)

~Doc
 

wincardona

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I agree that your shot does not leave an inviting offensive return shot for the opponent. But looking at Whitey's vid, notice that before the shot both the 7 and 8 balls could be made in the shooter's pocket. Now, after the shot, both balls are taken out of position to be made. The CB can now be left uptable with impunity by the opponent.

But at least it shows me that anyone with an accomplished stroke (like you and Whitey) can leave the CB where you attested that it could be left...:)

~Doc
Did you really say that the 7ball and 8ball are tied up and that's why you don't like the shot??

No you didn't.:frus

Dr. Bill
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Opponent's Shot!

Opponent's Shot!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/USoSWUVr7dNNihyc7
Click on video for sound.
This shot, as with the Nick's two rail bank, are great shot's to know and practice, but when bringing both the cb and ob down to the foot rail then there is no margin for error. Thus, pocket speed is essential, and as you can see I hit this shot a little to hard, just as I hit Billy's shot just a little to hard, whoops!

I believe Nick's shot with the 11, 1-1/2 diamonds off of the head cushion then the cb ball coming around is slower than the 11 thus not optimum for this layout, but if the 11 is back a little then it lays nature and the cb and ob speed are equal.

A little off the debate, but enjoy! Whitey
 
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catkins

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/USoSWUVr7dNNihyc7
Click on video for sound.
This shot, as with the Nick's two rail bank, are great shot's to know and practice, but when bringing both the cb and ob down to the foot rail then there is no margin for error. Thus, pocket speed is essential, and as you can see I hit this shot a little to hard, just as I hit Billy's shot just a little to hard, whoops!

I believe Nick's shot with the 11, 1-1/2 diamonds off of the head cushion then the cb ball coming around is slower than the 11 thus not optimum for this layout, but if the 11 is back a little then it lays nature and the cb and ob speed are equal.

A little off the debate, but enjoy! Whitey
I like shooting this shot but only when I can use the stack for cover and stop right around where I like the cue ball to stop on the break
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Doc's Shot!

Doc's Shot!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wt4XKhteMzGrNddw6
This shot represents Doc's shot when you come up short of the 3. I thought I had the 5/6 return bank covered but the 5 banks, plus coming up short also allows a return safety off the side of the 6 going two rails up against the 8, plus there is a good angle to come off of the 9, and the 12 is bankable although risky.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bpCgGkNENwfc2m188
click on videos to get sound.
This represents a better result! The cue ball goes beyond the 5. Now if the 5 is bankable then the cb has to go across it's face thus pushing the 6 into the path of the 5. I'd say the shot was pretty successful.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Y7ytyVVKEFB57pXr9
This shot represents getting behind the 3. It not as good as getting completely behind the 3, but it only leaves a few choices since the 6 can not be seen, nor the 12.

I posted these shots to point out how important it is to stroke it with enough speed to contact the 3, for if you come up short you can not rely on the 8 ball to cover. If the 8 ball ends up just a little off then either the 5 or 6 banks!
I did not forget you Doc, here is your shot as I played it! Whitey
 

gulfportdoc

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Did you really say that the 7ball and 8ball are tied up and that's why you don't like the shot??

No you didn't.:frus

Dr. Bill
No, that's only one of the reasons. I pointed out the 7 & 8 ball mess because it evidently did not occur to you...:)
 

gulfportdoc

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I posted these shots to point out how important it is to stroke it with enough speed to contact the 3, for if you come up short you can not rely on the 8 ball to cover. If the 8 ball ends up just a little off then either the 5 or 6 banks!
I did not forget you Doc, here is your shot as I played it! Whitey
Nice work, Whitey. It's nice of you to take the time to set up all these shots and record them. All the shots discussed require good CB and OB speed. This last one seems the simplest.

~Doc
 

wincardona

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No, that's only one of the reasons. I pointed out the 7 & 8 ball mess because it evidently did not occur to you...:)
Doc, firstly I would like to point out my referencing on how the 7 and 8balls figure to end up. I first referenced in post #45 that the 7 and 8balls would end up close together in a good position then again in post #70 that the 8ball will end up to the inside of the 7ball, and lastly in post #78 I mentioned that the 8ball will end up to the left of the 7ball. To me that's clearly describing what figures to happen in this instance with the 7 and 8balls. To confirm the accuracy of my statement I'll explain physically why that will happen. If you notice on the picture both the 7ball and 8ball are close to parallel with one another, with that understood by coming across the 8ball with right english the 8ball must end up inside the 7ball to set up an ideal ball position for the shooter.

Furthermore, even if there were a likelihood that the two balls could end up tied up that's not enough of a deterrent to can the option simply because of the likelihood of that happening which would be around 10% of the time at most.

You also mentioned that that's only one of the reasons this option is no good. That's an undefinable statement to an issue that is entitled much more than that to establish your point.

Dr. Bill
 
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