Ghost vs. John 46 wwyd?

Tom Wirth

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Tom, post #31 is this the shot your talking about?
No sir, I propose coming at the three from the foot rail and ticky the three. Coming at the ticky from the top rail can work too but I have never liked sending both an object ball and the cue ball towards the foot rail unless I know what they will do or I can be certain to hide the cue ball behind other balls. This can not happen kicking the three from the top rail.

If I were to come at the three from the top rail I would be far better off using the eleven to ticky the three and hold the cue ball on the top rail. If I were at the table and had a good feel for the layout that might end up being my number one choice here. It's not as risky as it may appear if the cue ball remains close to the rail. The angle looks pretty good for that shot.

Tom
 
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gulfportdoc

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Doc. Bill, You know I have the greatest respect for your strategic One Pocket thinking and with your cueing skills. I have no doubt of your ability to execute the shot as your intend. I also feel if you do get the cue ball to that intended location the shot will accomplish what you were looking for. I on the other hand feel just as comfortable with the two rail ticky on the three. Given the position of both the three and cue balls this shot is easy to measure, (A simple mirror system will get'er done) though I admit it is a bit more complicated than spinning off the eight.
...
Yeah, bro, I really like that shot too. Hit well, it may be better than either 8 ball shot.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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In continuing the debate as to whether the ticky on the 3 or the two shots coming off the 8 is the better selection.

Sorry Tom, I have to side with Dr. Bill and Jerry coming off the 8 and holding up the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond, and Doc's shot coming off the 8 and going up against the 3, and if it gets behind the 3, game over!

Coming off the 8 and keeping the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond while bringing the 8 off and far enough out so it can not be banked but yet blocks the 6 ball bank, squarely keeps the advantage. The return shot would be to come off the 9 two rails up against the backside of the 8, but this leaves the straight back bank on the 7.
The same thing with Doc's shot, the 8 blocks up the banks on the 5 & 6.
Now we have the 8 in a scoring position and the 7 is protected.

Whereas the ticky on the 3, and even hit as you depict, leaves a clear shot at the 7, and other balls to work with, of which could end up in a defensive lockup. Whitey
 

Tom Wirth

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In continuing the debate as to whether the ticky on the 3 or the two shots coming off the 8 is the better selection.

Sorry Tom, I have to side with Dr. Bill and Jerry coming off the 8 and holding up the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond, and Doc's shot coming off the 8 and going up against the 3, and if it gets behind the 3, game over!

Coming off the 8 and keeping the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond while bringing the 8 off and far enough out so it can not be banked but yet blocks the 6 ball bank, squarely keeps the advantage. The return shot would be to come off the 9 two rails up against the backside of the 8, but this leaves the straight back bank on the 7.
The same thing with Doc's shot, the 8 blocks up the banks on the 5 & 6.
Now we have the 8 in a scoring position and the 7 is protected.

Whereas the ticky on the 3, and even hit as you depict, leaves a clear shot at the 7, and other balls to work with, of which could end up in a defensive lockup. Whitey
No apology necessary Whitey, You like anyone else are entitled to your opinions. I am entitled to mine. Trying to position the eight ball to block the banks on either the five or six can leave an unintended gap. I think you must grant me that. Playing the shot as Bill suggests might leave a bank, probably not. Come up two or three inches higher than where Bill suggests definitely leaves a bank. Even so, I see the shot as rather passive and accomplishes little. Maybe that's all one should expect from that position. Who really knows? Playing weaker players any conservative shot works fine.

For now, I"m sure you don't mind if I stick to my ticky on the three and take my chances.

Tom
 

Tom Wirth

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Okay sports fans, I've got a report to file.

I took the three most popular options to the table and tried them all a number of times. These options were; #1 Spinning the cue ball off the eight as the "Good Doctor" suggested; #2 My option. Kicking two rails off the foot rail to ticky the three and send the cue ball up table; #3 Banking the eleven ball into the three and sticking the cue ball on the top rail.

And the winner is..........................................







Banking the eleven ball into the three and holding the cue ball to the top rail!
Hands down this is the best option.

No matter how the three ball is struck the shot comes out very well. I suppose it would be possible to hit the three so cleanly that it hangs in the opposing player's pocket but that risk is next to nil.
The typical result of this shot was to send both the eleven and three to the shooter's side of the table. In shooting this shot I once even managed to break up the cluster a bit and send even more balls towards the shooter's hole. This particular shot had a devastatingly good outcome.

Now for the other two options.

First Doc. Bill's shot. I give him great latitude here because it is quite different to envision a shot from photos than it is to set it up and actually try it. I attempted the shot several times by spinning the cue ball off the eight, trying to hold the cue ball low enough to prevent the opponent from having a bank on the six. I was unable to prevent giving up the bank. The only way to prevent this was to draw the cue ball off the eight hitting it rather full. I once struck the seven sending both balls away from my pocket. I cut it a tad more and prevented that from occurring but the eight left town.

Now for the shot I liked; the ticky on the three ball. Well, It came out well a few times but it also sold out a relatively easy cross bank on the seven when i hit the three dead center basically stopping the cue ball. There is no legitimate reason to risk that possibility from this position.

So you see. I am being objective in my analysis of these three options. I don't like Bill's shot but at least it doesn't sell out if hit with draw and keeping the cue ball below the first diamond. This sets up a neutral situation and almost assures an up table game.

I don't like my option either for the reason I just stated even though in most cases the shot was very effective.

The only shot that consistently came out well was the bank on the eleven. So, whoever made that suggestion or sided with that choice gets my cookie. It was easy to execute and control the cue ball. What more could one ask for? I ask you.
Well done!

Tom
 
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vapros

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Great report from TW. I watch his videos and I often think we could benefit from a bit more commentary, but also I am impressed with his performance on the table. Today he went to the table and got to the bottom of this WWYD, and we should all pay attention. He even debunked his own shot. Good on you, Mr. W!
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Great report from TW. I watch his videos and I often think we could benefit from a bit more commentary, but also I am impressed with his performance on the table. Today he went to the table and got to the bottom of this WWYD, and we should all pay attention. He even debunked his own shot. Good on you, Mr. W!

And also, good on the Ghost for supplying us with this wwyd, and all the other wwyd's.
Thanks for sayin' brother Bill...:)
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Tom, on our early posts we discussed the 11 bank ticky into the 3. Ghost, rightfully pointed out that there is a return lock up safety either coming off the 12 leaving the cb behind the 8, while sending a ball to the opponent's hole. What I found on this shot is that it has to be hit hard to end up getting a ball by your hole to help prevent the return safety.

I did this shot a few days ago, and I went around the 3 twice, hit it on the wrong side twice, made the 3, and finally did it right but then realized I needed to hit it much harder to help prevent the return safety.

Dr. Bill's shot, I did not try to get the cb to the side rail, but only played to get over on that side across from the 1st. diamond, played the eight high enough so it can not be banked nor the six. I felt it was fairly easy, but just like any of these shot selections, they have to be hit precisely for the 5 & 6 can be banked by either opponent and the 5,6,7 & 12 can be banked by the opponent if left. But in doing Dr. Bill's shot, I then realized his strategy, and that is keeping your advantage.

Most all of these shot selections are excellent but they all have to be precisely hit, especially the bank shots the bring both the ob and cb back to the foot rail. Nice reporting on the shots, and I am glad someone else is taking these shots to the table. I do it as a learning experience, for I do not have the experience to just say do this shot.

I like Doc's coming off the 8 and going over by the 3 the best. Whitey
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom, on our early posts we discussed the 11 bank ticky into the 3. Ghost, rightfully pointed out that there is a return lock up safety either coming off the 12 leaving the cb behind the 8, while sending a ball to the opponent's hole. What I found on this shot is that it has to be hit hard to end up getting a ball by your hole to help prevent the return safety.
Whitey
The shot should be hit firmly for two reasons. First, it allows the shooter to force stun the cue ball forward to the head rail with accuracy. (When sending the cue ball some distance to reach an object ball I prefer using a firm stroke. I have considerably better accuracy) And second, it helps to bring the two balls across the table. The first hits the second on either side and they both must cross.
Tom
 

wincardona

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Okay sports fans, I've got a report to file.

I took the three most popular options to the table and tried them all a number of times. These options were; #1 Spinning the cue ball off the eight as the "Good Doctor" suggested; #2 My option. Kicking two rails off the foot rail to ticky the three and send the cue ball up table; #3 Banking the eleven ball into the three and sticking the cue ball on the top rail.

And the winner is..........................................






Banking the eleven ball into the three and holding the cue ball to the top rail!
Hands down this is the best option.

No matter how the three ball is struck the shot comes out very well. I suppose it would be possible to hit the three so cleanly that it hangs in the opposing player's pocket but that risk is next to nil.
The typical result of this shot was to send both the eleven and three to the shooter's side of the table. In shooting this shot I once even managed to break up the cluster a bit and send even more balls towards the shooter's hole. This particular shot had a devastatingly good outcome.

Now for the other two options.

First Doc. Bill's shot. I give him great latitude here because it is quite different to envision a shot from photos than it is to set it up and actually try it. I attempted the shot several times by spinning the cue ball off the eight, trying to hold the cue ball low enough to prevent the opponent from having a bank on the six. I was unable to prevent giving up the bank. The only way to prevent this was to draw the cue ball off the eight hitting it rather full. I once struck the seven sending both balls away from my pocket. I cut it a tad more and prevented that from occurring but the eight left town.

Now for the shot I liked; the ticky on the three ball. Well, It came out well a few times but it also sold out a relatively easy cross bank on the seven when i hit the three dead center basically stopping the cue ball. There is no legitimate reason to risk that possibility from this position.

So you see. I am being objective in my analysis of these three options. I don't like Bill's shot but at least it doesn't sell out if hit with draw and keeping the cue ball below the first diamond. This sets up a neutral situation and almost assures an up table game.

I don't like my option either for the reason I just stated even though in most cases the shot was very effective.

The only shot that consistently came out well was the bank on the eleven. So, whoever made that suggestion or sided with that choice gets my cookie. It was easy to execute and control the cue ball. What more could one ask for? I ask you.
Well done!

Tom
Tom, you must be setting up the balls different than they are laying on the table. I say this because I went to the table and played my shot softly spinning off the 8ball and rolling to the side rail with ease and also consistently. There is absolutely no need to draw the cue ball the angle is laying perfectly to execute this shot. Also as I mentioned, after rolling to the side rail and the 8ball is now positioned to the inside of the 7ball my opponent can only answer by coming off the 6ball or the 9ball and I will then have in many cases a good return off his safety.

I played my self coming off the 8ball sending the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" above the 1st diamond about 2" off the rail. From this position my opponent can only come off of either the 6ball or the 9ball. He must protect the 3ball that is positioned on his side of the table, so I thinly cut the 9ball and sent the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" up the rail and again about 2" off the side rail. This leave left a back cut bank on the 6ball with the 5ball as a buffer sending the cue ball under the 3ball. I made the bank and now I have either a shot on the 3ball to bank or an option to position the 3ball on my side sending the cue ball up table. Like I mentioned after coming off the 8ball and positioning the cue ball near the side rail my opponent will not like his position. Please respond would like to play this position with you from our computers.

By the way the bank on the 11ball into the 3ball is a very strong shot and would very possibly be my shot of choice from this position.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Yeah, bro, I really like that shot too. Hit well, it may be better than either 8 ball shot.
Doc, why would it be better than either 8ball shot? where's the benefits with the ticky? I'm interested to hear why maybe I'm looking at this shot wrong.

Keep in mind the shooter has the best position we need to figure a shot that will either preserve it or improve it.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom, you must be setting up the balls different than they are laying on the table. I say this because I went to the table and played my shot softly spinning off the 8ball and rolling to the side rail with ease and also consistently. There is absolutely no need to draw the cue ball the angle is laying perfectly to execute this shot. Also as I mentioned, after rolling to the side rail and the 8ball is now positioned to the inside of the 7ball my opponent can only answer by coming off the 6ball or the 9ball and I will then have in many cases a good return off his safety.

I played my self coming off the 8ball sending the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" above the 1st diamond about 2" off the rail. From this position my opponent can only come off of either the 6ball or the 9ball. He must protect the 3ball that is positioned on his side of the table, so I thinly cut the 9ball and sent the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" up the rail and again about 2" off the side rail. This leave left a back cut bank on the 6ball with the 5ball as a buffer sending the cue ball under the 3ball. I made the bank and now I have either a shot on the 3ball to bank or an option to position the 3ball on my side sending the cue ball up table. Like I mentioned after coming off the 8ball and positioning the cue ball near the side rail my opponent will not like his position. Please respond would like to play this position with you from our computers.

By the way the bank on the 11ball into the 3ball is a very strong shot and would very possibly be my shot of choice from this position.

Dr. Bill
Hey Bill, I will concede that we are probably setting up the situation differently from each other. I'm sure you feel you have them set up properly but I feel I have them set up correctly too, and I was getting a different outcome while playing the shot as you just described.

So, I guess that's why it would be best if we all provide great latitude with each other's offerings. The Ghost's threads are excellent in that he typically provides photos from several angles. That certainly helps us figure the layout fairly accurately but we can each still be off by enough to see the situation differently. I of course believe you were able to play off the eight ball just as you described given the way you set it up. I can only assume we just see that set up differently from one another.

As an example; Whitey stated in banking the eleven towards the three he was able to send the eleven between the rail and three ball twice. I find that rather remarkable because I see the three as being no more than a ball and a half from the side rail. He may see it differently than I do. Who's right?

I like the wwyd threads the Ghost provides and want the see them continue but I don't know what we can do about this issue. Suggestions are needed.
Just to be clear. I think Ghost is doing as good a job as can be expected by anyone who provides these situations. It is on us to concede that we each may be reconstructing the situations slightly differently and make allowances.

Tom
 

beatle

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instead of trying to find the perfect shot for the exact ball positions. use a basic correct shot for the layout as it approximately looks. its all about finding or learning the best shots rather than the exact best shot for a position that cant be determined with precision.
 

wincardona

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In continuing the debate as to whether the ticky on the 3 or the two shots coming off the 8 is the better selection.

Sorry Tom, I have to side with Dr. Bill and Jerry coming off the 8 and holding up the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond, and Doc's shot coming off the 8 and going up against the 3, and if it gets behind the 3, game over!

Coming off the 8 and keeping the cb on the line of the 1st. diamond while bringing the 8 off and far enough out so it can not be banked but yet blocks the 6 ball bank, squarely keeps the advantage. The return shot would be to come off the 9 two rails up against the backside of the 8, but this leaves the straight back bank on the 7.
The same thing with Doc's shot, the 8 blocks up the banks on the 5 & 6.
Now we have the 8 in a scoring position and the 7 is protected.

Whereas the ticky on the 3, and even hit as you depict, leaves a clear shot at the 7, and other balls to work with, of which could end up in a defensive lockup. Whitey
Excellent points Whitey. This position suggest that you find a shot that will protect your position or force your opponent to play passively allowing you back at the table to improve your position. This type of strategy is too often overlooked which in turn will cost him losing his position and possibly losing the game by allowing his opponent back at the table to turn the tables.

In situations where we are trying to force an offensive shot (like this one) that is risky and low percentage (think 11ball) try to look to do something simple that will protect your position and make your opponent work to keep in pace with you. This is the type of defense that too often is not recognized and the type of defense that has your opponent scratching his head and saying to himself " How can he keep beating me he doesn't do anything special" Players refer to that as a subtle strong move.;) patience is a virtue.

Banking the 11ball into the 3ball should be an option, this shot looks to improve your position with little risk but the upside is more than enough to choose this option. Any other shot off the 11ball is asking for trouble.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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instead of trying to find the perfect shot for the exact ball positions. use a basic correct shot for the layout as it approximately looks. its all about finding or learning the best shots rather than the exact best shot for a position that cant be determined with precision.
Good post beatle.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Hey Bill, I will concede that we are probably setting up the situation differently from each other. I'm sure you feel you have them set up properly but I feel I have them set up correctly too, and I was getting a different outcome while playing the shot as you just described.

So, I guess that's why it would be best if we all provide great latitude with each other's offerings. The Ghost's threads are excellent in that he typically provides photos from several angles. That certainly helps us figure the layout fairly accurately but we can each still be off by enough to see the situation differently. I of course believe you were able to play off the eight ball just as you described given the way you set it up. I can only assume we just see that set up differently from one another.

As an example; Whitey stated in banking the eleven towards the three he was able to send the eleven between the rail and three ball twice. I find that rather remarkable because I see the three as being no more than a ball and a half from the side rail. He may see it differently than I do. Who's right?

I like the wwyd threads the Ghost provides and want the see them continue but I don't know what we can do about this issue. Suggestions are needed.
Just to be clear. I think Ghost is doing as good a job as can be expected by anyone who provides these situations. It is on us to concede that we each may be reconstructing the situations slightly differently and make allowances.

Tom
Tom, I'm not trying to be critical here but you can clearly see from the pictures choosing to spin off the 8ball is a natural shot. You are coming across the 8ball which will naturally lengthen the angle without having to draw the ball. I say this because if the angle that I see is the angle that presents itself then it's a very simple shot to execute and predict the out come off of. It's imperative that you leave a back cut bank on the 6ball and to do that you must have complete control with the cue ball. That's one of the strengths of the shot, it's a natural angle. :sorry In turn this shot will force your opponent to play off either the 6ball or 9ball and then you will have a better picture to look at. This is a calculated move that will preserve your position and allow you back at the table with at worst a similar situation that you are in now and more often a better position that your in now. What other safety option provides that?


I'm reinforcing this type of strategy because I want our members to think differently in certain situations. It's not always about playing creative shots that will look good and impress people, it's about learning how to win and not looking good doing it.
Dr. Bill
 
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Tom Wirth

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Tom,

I played my self coming off the 8ball sending the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" above the 1st diamond about 2" off the rail. From this position my opponent can only come off of either the 6ball or the 9ball. He must protect the 3ball that is positioned on his side of the table, so I thinly cut the 9ball and sent the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" up the rail and again about 2" off the side rail. This leave left a back cut bank on the 6ball with the 5ball as a buffer sending the cue ball under the 3ball. I made the bank and now I have either a shot on the 3ball to bank or an option to position the 3ball on my side sending the cue ball up table. Like I mentioned after coming off the 8ball and positioning the cue ball near the side rail my opponent will not like his position. Please respond would like to play this position with you from our computers.
By the way the bank on the 11ball into the 3ball is a very strong shot and would very possibly be my shot of choice from this position.

Dr. Bill
By the way the bank on the 11ball into the 3ball is a very strong shot and would very possibly be my shot of choice from this position.
Now you're talin"!
Why mess around with anything else. Seize the moment! At the top levels they don't come often. This is CONTROLLED AGGRESSION in a nut shell.
Easy to execute, high expectations, low risk. Perfect solution. I'm pissed at myself for not having chosen this shot as my first option.

I believe it is important to realize it is possible to error on the side of too much caution. The trick is to recognize the right moments to be aggressive and those moments when a conservative approach is warranted. In this instance,
I feel passing up the aggressive bank on the eleven into the ticky on the three can be very costly. Sure, the safety off the eight maintains a safe margin and that is fine if you happen to be playing someone who's skills cannot equal your own. But you know full well that won't cut it at the top levels.

so I thinly cut the 9ball and sent the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" up the rail and again about 2" off the side rail. This leave left a back cut bank on the 6ball with the 5ball as a buffer sending the cue ball under the 3ball.



Why would you do this? Couldn't you find a better solution than to slide off the nine and give up the back cut bank? Seems that there are far better responses to that position that protect the three, and as long as the three is protected this game remains a stalemate.

Tom
 

wincardona

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By the way the bank on the 11ball into the 3ball is a very strong shot and would very possibly be my shot of choice from this position.
Now you're talin"!
Why mess around with anything else. Seize the moment! At the top levels they don't come often. This is CONTROLLED AGGRESSION in a nut shell.
Easy to execute, high expectations, low risk. Perfect solution. I'm pissed at myself for not having chosen this shot as my first option.

I believe it is important to realize it is possible to error on the side of too much caution. The trick is to recognize the right moments to be aggressive and those moments when a conservative approach is warranted. In this instance,
I feel passing up the aggressive bank on the eleven into the ticky on the three can be very costly. Sure, the safety off the eight maintains a safe margin and that is fine if you happen to be playing someone who's skills cannot equal your own. But you know full well that won't cut it at the top levels.

so I thinly cut the 9ball and sent the cue ball to the side rail about 3 to 4" up the rail and again about 2" off the side rail. This leave left a back cut bank on the 6ball with the 5ball as a buffer sending the cue ball under the 3ball.



Why would you do this? Couldn't you find a better solution than to slide off the nine and give up the back cut bank? Seems that there are far better responses to that position that protect the three, and as long as the three is protected this game remains a stalemate.

Tom
In reference to your response about choosing a better option than sliding off the 9ball to protect the 3ball I couldn't find any. Now we are at the meat of the decision why sliding off the 8ball is correct and effective. Envision the position of the cue ball near the side rail about 3" past the 1st diamond, the 8ball is now moved to the left of the 7ball so there's no escape off the 8ball. IMO, there are only two balls you can play off of the 6ball or the 9ball from this position, do you see another ball that would offer an escape route? Don't forget that the 8ball is now positioned to the left of the 7ball which now offers two possible banks for me if the cue ball is left in a position to play one of them. What would your return be Tom?

Lets also revisit the ticky off the 3ball if you would. Where's the benefit and what is your objective other than moving the 3ball for you to choose this option? Can you predict where both the 3ball and cue ball will end up? I personally don't see benefits with the option other than moving the 3ball but is it worth the risk? Please explain.

Lets assume that the option with banking the 11ball into the 3ball wasn't there and we are now looking for a shot that best fits the situation. It's decisions in situations similar to this one that dictates who pays who in the end. Yes this inconsequential looking situation is anything but that, and don't be fooled to think differently. This is where you need to buckle down and force your opponent to earn what he gets as opposed to playing an option that will allow him to either break down your position or worse start one for himself. Playing off the 8ball fits the description of the "art" of making your opponent work to stay in the game. It's a strategy that not only makes your opponent work but it's wearing on your opponent and keeps him out of stroke..if you will.. Keeping the pressure on an opponent can be applied in several ways this is one of them. This type of thinking is what made Artie Bodendorfer so difficult to beat, yes he was a mediocre 9ball player but a champion one pocket player. He constantly made you work by keeping you on the rail, on top of balls, and using distance to break his opponents down. He was unrelenting in attacking using this type of strategy. This must be respected.

I apologize to you or anyone else that interprets this critical response as arrogant or something else, it is meant to educate and force a mental impact on anyone that finds it educational.

You are gifted with a superb mind playing this game Tom and I enjoy debating situations with you because of that, this is one of the reasons I'm having this conversation with you. Enjoy your day.

Dr. Bill
 
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Tom Wirth

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In reference to your response about choosing a better option than sliding off the 9ball to protect the 3ball I couldn't find any. Now we are at the meat of the decision why sliding off the 8ball is correct and effective. Envision the position of the cue ball near the side rail about 3" past the 1st diamond, the 8ball is now moved to the left of the 7ball so there's no escape off the 8ball. IMO, there are only two balls you can play off of the 6ball or the 9ball from this position, do you see another ball that would offer an escape route? Don't forget that the 8ball is now positioned to the left of the 7ball which now offers two possible banks for me if the cue ball is left in a position to play one of them. What would your return be Tom?

Lets also revisit the ticky off the 3ball if you would. Where's the benefit and what is your objective other than moving the 3ball for you to choose this option? Can you predict where both the 3ball and cue ball will end up? I personally don't see benefits with the option other than moving the 3ball but is it worth the risk? Please explain.

Dr. Bill
Bill, In the image below you will see two black dots on the far side rail. Each dot is approx. 3 inches to either side of the first diamond. I assume you mean to leave the cue ball nearer the dot on the left because if you leave it near the right hand dot i'm banking the six. I know you wouldn't do that. Okay so far? Now, as you correctly say, I have two options. I can play off the six or off the nine. You said you played the return shot be skimming off the nine and sold out a bank on the six. Right? I asked you why would you do that knowing your will have that six ball bank and the five to prevent the cue ball escaping up table?

I see two responses to your eight ball position shot. 1. skim off the six using the cluster as cover protecting the three or 2. Make a fairly full hit on the nine clearing it with a firm stroke and a touch of left english leaving the cue ball along the foot rail about 1/2 diamond from the side rail. Now if you wish to bank the six from there you can still hold the cue ball from escaping up table but there is no reward beyond that one ball because there are no follow up shots, and that bank is not anywhere near as easy as the one you gave up skimming off the nine.

As to the three ball ticky shot.
I admitted earlier that I had overlooked the possibility of the cue ball stopping upon hitting the three ball full on the two rail kick from the foot rail. In most cases in setting it up I was successful in creating a powerful position but not always. That is why I deferred to the bank ticky using the eleven ball. In this case the shot was extremely effective every time I tried it. It was easy to execute and hold the cue ball close to the top rail. I even intentionally played the shot to strike the three one rail instead of two and it still came out good. Both balls traveled predictably to the opposite side of the table and created big trouble for the poor sucker who had to deal with it.

Bottom line for my way of thinking is your shot is fine if you don't mind creating an up table game. Personally I try to avoid those type games unless I just want to squeeze the guy.

Sorry, but from these images I still don't see how you can get the cue ball there spinning it with a follow stroke.
Tom
 

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gulfportdoc

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Doc, why would it be better than either 8ball shot? where's the benefits with the ticky? I'm interested to hear why maybe I'm looking at this shot wrong.

Keep in mind the shooter has the best position we need to figure a shot that will either preserve it or improve it. Dr. Bill
To answer your question, it isn't. I liked the 3-ball ticky until realizing that if the CB crept up the rail, it would likely leave a free 7-ball bank for the opponent. Tom too has changed his preference to the 11-ball straight back into the 3. That's probably a real good shot, although for me it would take some courage to pull the trigger on that one.

[disclaimer: I haven't taken any of these shots to the table]

But here are the better points of the two 8-ball shots:

In your shot, if the CB can be left in the vicinity of the side rail 1st diamond, then the opponent will not likely attempt a bank of the 5 or 6 balls, because if missed it would move stuff towards the opponent's hole; and even if one of those banks were made, there's no follow-up.

In my shot the CB rolls to either on, near, or behind the 3 ball, while the 8 rolls up in the way, blocking a possible return bank of the 5 or 6, and leaving the 8 in a more advantageous position for the shooter. My shot seems easier.

The downsides: Your shot takes the touch of Efren (or Cardone's) to get the CB to the first diamond, and it banks the 8 uptable, possibly even taking the 7 with it. In my shot, it's possible that either the 5 or 6 could be bank-combo'd into the 9.

So, all things being equal, it's a "pick 'em".

~Doc
 
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