Ghost vs. Donn 23 wwyd?

Bob Jewett

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Bob, is it safe to say, if you overcut it you most likely double kiss?
For the amount of side spin shown, you have to way over cut it to get a kiss. At that point, you are probably going to run straight into the 10 anyway after two rails.

Here is an example over-cut that gets a kiss. In this case, the 8 gets kissed from behind and into the pocket and I'm left with a two-rail on the 1 ball. This is the way I prefer to make the shot especially against those weak-willed individuals who can't take a few bad rolls.:p

CropperCapture[399].jpg

But it is important to note that a small change in the positions or some change in the table might make the kiss more likely. I did as well as I could to match the original photo, but it's hard to get the exact position. My first try to match the photo made it nearly impossible to kick in the 12 ball but move it a quarter ball and it's easy.
 

unoperro

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For the amount of side spin shown, you have to way over cut it to get a kiss. At that point, you are probably going to run straight into the 10 anyway after two rails.

Here is an example over-cut that gets a kiss. In this case, the 8 gets kissed from behind and into the pocket and I'm left with a two-rail on the 1 ball. This is the way I prefer to make the shot especially against those weak-willed individuals who can't take a few bad rolls.:p

View attachment 25302

But it is important to note that a small change in the positions or some change in the table might make the kiss more likely. I did as well as I could to match the original photo, but it's hard to get the exact position. My first try to match the photo made it nearly impossible to kick in the 12 ball but move it a quarter ball and it's easy.
Thanks for the reply.
 

jtompilot

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Bob, is it safe to say, if you overcut it you most likely double kiss?
The only way to get a kiss is with too little spin. I have to disagree with bobs over cut diagram because the cue ball is traveling much faster than the 8.
 

cincy_kid

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The only way to get a kiss is with too little spin. I have to disagree with bobs over cut diagram because the cue ball is traveling much faster than the 8.
respectfully Jim, it's going to be pretty much 99.9% accurate. VP has the physics / speed / spin down pretty good so the shots when set up should show true lines and paths.

If you watch the video you can see how it happens...lucky but true ;)
 

Island Drive

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I'm looking at the 3 diff pics the ghost showed. Having played 9 ball at a high level till my divorce in the early 90's this shots a no brainer. There's no double kiss if you shoot the shot with the proper cueing/swing speed. Address whitey with 9 o'clock cueing, push your angle with your cue ball speed. What happens is this. With your horizontal plane 9 o'clock cueing with cue ball squirt to the right, the transfer of cueball speed to the object ball is MAXIMIZED. You'll also strike your first rail, higher avoiding any chance at a dbl kiss. Sometimes play conditions will Allow, and often will not allow shots like this to be successful. Only experience and time on the tables will help you make that choice.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/yHxAoRF3f1DoffNV6 click on video for sound and box to enlarge.
I guess you guys knew there was videos on the horizon. I just had to check just how close the virtual reality was, and yes there can be a kiss. But, if you overcut it less or more then there is not a kiss. So if your the unlucky one that contacts the rail at 2-1/2 diamonds, watch out.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XGmhxTh1hx774WeaA
Of course if I would got the 3 ball directly in front on my hole it would be a better result. I stroked it just a little hard. The return reply shots are interesting, and somewhat challenging! I also videoed the shot being made but that does not represent much other than you are now on the 8 ball to continue the run. But this video gives you guys the possibilities that could occur in choosing this shot.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cA8FmDJvgDqjc2zj6
Well, just for laughs I decided to post the 2 rail being made. I am kind of lost for words when I made it. But, as you can see I have a very nice shot on the 8.

Thanks for the thread and all the extras! Whitey
 
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Tom Wirth

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Whitey, thank you for taking the time and effort to record and post your three videos of these shots. Creating them is a chore, I know this first hand.

Now for your results. In your first video you over cut the eight ball and managed to get the cue ball in the desired area and safe. Had you missed the shot in the same way but hit it softer you would have risked leaving a good return cross corner bank on the eight and with the combination looming on the one ball, that could be disastrous. As far as the potential kiss is concerned, there are other ways to cue the ball and provide a wider margin. An example of this would be to lower the tip a bit and apply more english. This is not a draw shot. Just push the cue stick through the cue ball and the cue ball will react a bit slower as it travels toward the side rail. The added engish will do the rest.

In your second example you two rail banked the three ball, leaving it along the side rail. For whatever reason you focused your attention on the possible cut on the twelve ball but the return shot from where you left the cue ball allowed for a natural cut on the seven and the cue ball would drift to the side rail and lay on the foot rail below the three and with position on the ten.

The same thing with your third example on the two rail bank on the three. The same cut on the seven existed with the same natural safety.

Bottom line; There were only two viable offensive shots to this situation; the cut on the eight with extreme inside english and the kick on the twelve ball.
As I see it, cutting the eight with outside english is not an option, but each to their own. There is nothing wrong with it as long as the shot is made but miss the shot and there will be a number of times you will pay the piper for that miss when your opponent cuts either the twelve or seven ball in and secures natural position on follow-up shots. Why on earth would you give up even the remote possibility of such a thing?

The defensive shot would have to be something like One Rock and maybe others described and shoot through the center of the eight leaving the cue ball on the foot rail.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Whitey, thank you for taking the time and effort to record and post your three videos of these shots. Creating them is a chore, I know this first hand.

Now for your results. In your first video you over cut the eight ball and managed to get the cue ball in the desired area and safe. Had you missed the shot in the same way but hit it softer you would have risked leaving a good return cross corner bank on the eight and with the combination looming on the one ball, that could be disastrous. As far as the potential kiss is concerned, there are other ways to cue the ball and provide a wider margin. An example of this would be to lower the tip a bit and apply more english. This is not a draw shot. Just push the cue stick through the cue ball and the cue ball will react a bit slower as it travels toward the side rail. The added engish will do the rest.

In your second example you two rail banked the three ball, leaving it along the side rail. For whatever reason you focused your attention on the possible cut on the twelve ball but the return shot from where you left the cue ball allowed for a natural cut on the seven and the cue ball would drift to the side rail and lay on the foot rail below the three and with position on the ten.

The same thing with your third example on the two rail bank on the three. The same cut on the seven existed with the same natural safety.

Bottom line; There were only two viable offensive shots to this situation; the cut on the eight with extreme inside english and the kick on the twelve ball.
As I see it, cutting the eight with outside english is not an option, but each to their own. There is nothing wrong with it as long as the shot is made but miss the shot and there will be a number of times you will pay the piper for that miss when your opponent cuts either the twelve or seven ball in and secures natural position on follow-up shots. Why on earth would you give up even the remote possibility of such a thing?

The defensive shot would have to be something like One Rock and maybe others described and shoot through the center of the eight leaving the cue ball on the foot rail.
I agree with your evaluation of cutting the 8, but I find that 1 tip of reverse works, no need to go with extreme reverse for you might run into the the wrong side of the 10.

In doing the video it was very hard for me to actually hit the face of the 2-1/2 diamond, just felt unnatural to purposely miss the shot, but that is what was needed to demonstrate the possible kiss, when using inside reverse. It is far easier just to make the 8. Dragging the cb as you suggest is one way to get out of the kiss, another way is to use no english. But the only kiss is at the 2-1/2 diamond, if you are unlucky to hit it there then watch out!

The 8 ball shot is my first choice, the 3 ball shot I like to show for an example for those players that want to put pressure upon their opponent by leaving the cb by the head rail. Naturally since the 3 ball ended up against my side rail, it lost much of its effectiveness. But the return shots going to the opponents hole are interesting, especially if I would of got the 3 ball in front of the hole, or not made it, as I stated in the video.

But, I of course can not disagree with your evaluation, nice call! Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/VpRABarL65RBqkqv9 click on video for sound and box to enlarge.

Tom did a good honest evaluation of my prior video of this shot, so I figured I better slow the cb down and not leave that shot on the 7, which as he stated; "is disastrous".
It seems I make this shot pretty well. But, I am not much of a fan of leaving a shot on the 12 with possible shape on the 10. But for those that want to dare their opponent, this shot might work for you.
Whitey
 

gulfportdoc

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...
The defensive shot would have to be something like One Rock and maybe others described and shoot through the center of the eight leaving the cue ball on the foot rail.
Another defensive shot which no one has mentioned is to simply roll the CB off the right of the 10 ball (probably about a 1/2 ball hit). The 10 rolls up to or near the cluster, while the CB stays in the general area.

It's a passive, but possibly effective, selection as an alternate to the 8 ball follow shot. The opponent would have nothing good offensively in return from there, unless he wanted to attempt some type of Dixie Whistler on the 12, or an inadvisable potential 2-railer on the 8.

~Doc
 

Chandler1968

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The angle for cutting the 8 with left does not look good to my eyes. The cue ball looks to hit between the side and the diamond and the left would make it run into the balls I like straight through the 8 ball. Jay
 

jtompilot

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The angle for cutting the 8 with left does not look good to my eyes. The cue ball looks to hit between the side and the diamond and the left would make it run into the balls I like straight through the 8 ball. Jay
Hi Jay, how have you been?
 

Kybanks

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Another defensive shot which no one has mentioned is to simply roll the CB off the right of the 10 ball (probably about a 1/2 ball hit). The 10 rolls up to or near the cluster, while the CB stays in the general area.

It's a passive, but possibly effective, selection as an alternate to the 8 ball follow shot. The opponent would have nothing good offensively in return from there, unless he wanted to attempt some type of Dixie Whistler on the 12, or an inadvisable potential 2-railer on the 8.

~Doc
That was the shot I posted Doc, like early in the thread, post #6
 

gulfportdoc

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That was the shot I posted Doc, like early in the thread, post #6
Right you are, my friend. I'd forgotten that you'd posted that. I'd try to hit it in such a way as to not leave a bank on the 10, but with the CB closest to the diagonal from the pocket to the foot spot.
 

Kybanks

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Right you are, my friend. I'd forgotten that you'd posted that. I'd try to hit it in such a way as to not leave a bank on the 10, but with the CB closest to the diagonal from the pocket to the foot spot.
Imo it would be hard to lose the game coming off the 10 ball. The balls definitely favor me . The cut on the 8 is for those that are late for dinner.
 

wincardona

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Imo it would be hard to lose the game coming off the 10 ball. The balls definitely favor me . The cut on the 8 is for those that are late for dinner.
For those who prefer to play passively coming off the 10ball IMO is a much better option then playing safe shooting the 8ball with a follow. The 8ball is in a favorable position for the shooter there's no reason to move it. Playing off the 10ball you move the 10 from a neutral position to where it favors the shooter.

I'm not late for dinner but I'm still cutting the 8ball for my choice of options.

The cut on the 8ball is somewhat demanding, I agree but for those who feel good about the shot it's a very strong option.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Another defensive shot which no one has mentioned is to simply roll the CB off the right of the 10 ball (probably about a 1/2 ball hit). The 10 rolls up to or near the cluster, while the CB stays in the general area.

It's a passive, but possibly effective, selection as an alternate to the 8 ball follow shot. The opponent would have nothing good offensively in return from there, unless he wanted to attempt some type of Dixie Whistler on the 12, or an inadvisable potential 2-railer on the 8.

~Doc
Doc. I got to thinking what might happen rolling off the ten ball. I see how the shot has merits if the idea is to play safe here because as Bill suggested the eight is in a good location. On the other hand, there is a potential problem with the shot. The shot must be played fairly softly so as to keep the cue ball low enough not to give up a bank on any of the three balls near the foot spot. Softly rolling the cue ball the length of the table carries the risk of it drifting off line, and as close as the ten ball is to the rail a double kiss could easily leave a nice cross corner bank. For this reason I would have to toss that possible shot out of the running.

Like Bill, I'm sticking with either the inside english cut on the eight or the kick on the twelve.

Tom
 

gulfportdoc

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Doc. I got to thinking what might happen rolling off the ten ball. I see how the shot has merits if the idea is to play safe here because as Bill suggested the eight is in a good location. On the other hand, there is a potential problem with the shot. The shot must be played fairly softly so as to keep the cue ball low enough not to give up a bank on any of the three balls near the foot spot. Softly rolling the cue ball the length of the table carries the risk of it drifting off line, and as close as the ten ball is to the rail a double kiss could easily leave a nice cross corner bank. For this reason I would have to toss that possible shot out of the running.

Like Bill, I'm sticking with either the inside english cut on the eight or the kick on the twelve. Tom
Yeah, the shot is not ideal. I'd have to take it to the table to see. But discussing purely defensive shots, it has some merit. I like following the 8 ball too, but it looks to me aimed straight at the pocket, so that changes things a little. If one has to cut the 8 even slightly, it's probably a no-go.

~Doc
 
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