Ghost vs. Donn 23 wwyd?

beatle

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either way you shoot the 8 it is going to be in front of your hole and he will have to deal with it.

one way you might leave him a long shot to shoot at. the other way you leave little but may sell out if you are off and hit those balls down table or leave an easy bank.

hitting a ball very thin and controlling the cue balls path is very difficult if you hit it even slightly off, which almost all players will do as there is a small margin on thin cuts.

change the thread to wwed (what would efren do) and then discuss other options.
 

Tobermory

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Cutting the 8 has appeal, but if you miss there are so many ways to sell out, whether you hit it with left or right English. If I had to shoot it, I'd go for the z pattern and slightly overcut it and hope the cit helps it find the hole or at least leave it close to the short rail to take away the return bank. Bill suggests hitting it softly but where does the cue ball end up? To be safe, I'd think you'd have to hit the z pattern hard enough to get the cue ball within a diamond of opponent's pocket.

Since the 3 won't go in, I'd pass on the 2 railer.

My shot is the very makeable kick on the 12. Like Tom says, it lays perfectly for a nearly full ball hit so the cue ball will just trickle down the rail a little, making a bank shot on one of the balls in the middle much tougher. Speed is key, so as to not give up the cross bank on the 12.
 

jtompilot

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Cutting the 8 has appeal, but if you miss there are so many ways to sell out, whether you hit it with left or right English. If I had to shoot it, I'd go for the z pattern and slightly overcut it and hope the cit helps it find the hole or at least leave it close to the short rail to take away the return bank. Bill suggests hitting it softly but where does the cue ball end up? To be safe, I'd think you'd have to hit the z pattern hard enough to get the cue ball within a diamond of opponent's pocket.

Since the 3 won't go in, I'd pass on the 2 railer.

My shot is the very makeable kick on the 12. Like Tom says, it lays perfectly for a nearly full ball hit so the cue ball will just trickle down the rail a little, making a bank shot on one of the balls in the middle much tougher. Speed is key, so as to not give up the cross bank on the 12.
If you miss the 12, looks like the 13 and 9 bank to opponents hole. The 8 has a better chance of a free shot although the correct spin is key
 

Tobermory

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If you miss the 12, looks like the 13 and 9 bank to opponents hole. The 8 has a better chance of a free shot although the correct spin is key
It looks to me that the cue ball would ticky down behind the kick and end up near the 2nd diamond, which would make those banks sucker shots if the 12 has ended up close to my pocket. I might shoot the 8 after looking them over, but getting that right spin is no certainty and it could easily go very wrong.
 

unoperro

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I shot my straight thru the 8 twice both times it went into the balls on the stack opening them up to my side. Both times whitey sat within the trough along the foot rail. No more then a 1/2 diamond from opponents pocket.

This really left him in a tough place.
 

OneRock

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With the score at 3-4, I'm not behind in this game, as my opponent still needs 5 to my 4. As Tom mentioned, a lot of things could go wrong by cutting the 8 and zigzagging the CB. But the same could be said of the kick on the 12 because unless it's hit very well, there's a real chance of leaving a cross bank. I prefer leaving the 12 where it is for now and focusing on sending the CB to the bottom rail by force-following the 8 and protecting the 7. Angle permitting, disrupting the 9-1 combination with the the 8 would be an added bonus. Otherwise, the 8 is heading back up table to his side. I'd like to make it practically impossible for him to get 5.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Cutting the 8 with 1 tip of left only, like Dr. Bill suggests is a clear winner. The cue ball easily clears everything and comes down for a shot on the 10.

I also played the 3 with reverse English to keep the cb on the head rail. If the 3 goes then you are on the next two balls, if it does not go then you are leaving a presure shot on the 12, with the 3 by your hole.

I like the 8 ball shot the best. Made it first try!

You'd have to take a gun to my head to kick the 12 over to my side! Sorry but a poor shot selection IMHO! Whitey
 
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Tom Wirth

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Cutting the 8 with 1 tip of left only, like Dr. Bill suggests is a clear winner. The cue ball easily clears everything and comes down for a shot on the 10.

I also played the 7 with reverse English to keep the cb on the head rail. If the 7 goes then you are on the next two balls, if it does not go then you are leaving a presure shot on the 12, with the 7 by your hole.

I like the 8 ball shot the best. Made it first try!

You'd have to take a gun to my head to kick the 12 over to my side! Sorry but a poor shot selection IMHO! Whitey
Whitey, Don't you think you are being a bit overly critical of that kick shot? Really, "A gun to my head?" Please. BTW, that comment didn't sound so humble to me. LOL.
I guess if you don't know how to play it I can see how you would want to pass on the shot, but let's see how you would feel about the cut on the eight ball if you didn't know that shot.

Maybe you just have an aversion to kick shots.
Personally, I"m okay with either shot. Maybe you would be too if you took some time to study them.

Tom
 

cincy_kid

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I love kick shots like the 12 and it was my first inclination, but like others have pointed out, I am a little afraid of leaving the short cross corner banks.

Unless I get lucky and block their paths, my opponent should have a good return shot if I don't pocket the 12.
 

Tom Wirth

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Cincy, It would help to be at the table where the kick shot can be analysed critically to see if a decent bank shot would be surrendered. As I stated earlier, I would reconsider and cut the eight if this were the case.

I can't see myself playing strictly safe in this situation. There are too many positive possibilities playing aggressively here. Especially if that third ball behind the spot goes in my hole. Looks to me like it does. Get on that ball and it's all she wrote. "Rack 'em sausage!"

Tom
 

wincardona

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I also like slicing the 8ball with a tip and a half to two tips of left English hitting it softly. IMO this shot needs to be hit with a speed to control the 8ball to end up as close to the pocket as possible. A slight over cut will suffice leaving the 8ball in the pocket a very high percentage of the time. Another advantage shooting the shot with a soft speed is that your accuracy will be raised to a high level and you take away the possible two cushion scratch in your opponents pocket. This speed will also give you better control with the cue ball in terms of direction.


side note...Don't over spin this shot.


Dr. Bill
I see there is some controversy on not being able to control the cue ball slicing the 8ball, well there should be if you don't understand the correct way to execute the shot. I mentioned hitting it with a soft speed and there are some players that misinterpreted the soft speed analysis. Hitting a thin cut shot with a soft speed will only slow up the object ball, the cue ball will be running much faster than the object ball and in this instance the soft speed will without question send the cue ball to the top rail for position on the 10ball. I also made reference to the amount of English that IMO should be applied to execute this shot to lessen the chances of a mishap occurring. Two tips of left English will keep the cue ball safely away from the spotted balls and will also control the cue ball to end up on the correct side of the 10ball. Lastly, I made reference to favoring the hit on the 8ball being a slight over cut but still play to the pocket. This mind set will be beneficial to the shooter to not only pocket the 8ball more consistently but will also keep the 8ball closer to the pocket and in the pocket much more often.

I like the cut on the 8ball the best because of the way the shot plays out in terms of not only protecting against return shots but it also IMO gives the shooter more opportunities to win the game in this inning at the table. Once it's understood how to execute the shot then slicing the 8ball will give the majority of players more potential in being productive running balls.

The kick on the 12ball is also a good option but it is somewhat limited to the players that kick well. For most players who aren't skilled in the kicking game kicking at the 12ball will result in leaving more return shots than slicing at the 8ball. Another plus with kicking the 12ball is that it will be moved from your opponents side and positioned on your side but there is a correct way to kick on the 12ball as well. Kicking at the 12ball IMO should be executed to favor kicking the 12ball to the side rail not the top rail for two reasons. First reason is that when the kick is missed the 12ball will end up closer to the top rail taking away cross corner return shots on the 12ball. Also by kicking deeper under the 12ball you will move the cue ball away from the danger area of selling out a return bank on the spotted ball.

So it's really up to the shooter which option suits him better, myself I like the 8ball option.


Dr. Bill
 

baby huey

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A lot of players have recommended shooting the cut shot on the eight ball with varying speeds as to where the cueball will come to rest. I don't see any reason to shoot at the eight. The balls favor me at this point. To those who like to move, take a look and the two rail bank on the three ball. Not to make it but to get it to my side by the seven ball or a little lower. Stick the cueball on the rail and let him shoot the long straight in stripe on his side. When you leave that cueball on the rail you have accomplished quite a lot as you can only push the cueball and miss-hits can and do occur on his return shot.
 

Tom Wirth

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. Kicking at the 12ball IMO should be executed to favor kicking the 12ball to the side rail not the top rail for two reasons. First reason is that when the kick is missed the 12ball will end up closer to the top rail taking away cross corner return shots on the 12ball. Also by kicking deeper under the 12ball you will move the cue ball away from the danger area of selling out a return bank on the spotted ball.

So it's really up to the shooter which option suits him better, myself I like the 8ball option.


Dr. Bill
Not that you need my approval.
Excellent analysis of the proper way to kick the twelve ball, Bill.
And your explanation of the cut on the eight ball is right on too.
The thin hit on the eight ball does not require much speed yet the cue ball will move quickly by comparison due to that thin hit and the two tips of english.

To pass on one of these two shots and play safe in this situation is to deny yourself a good opportunity which may not come your way again during this game. One must be prepared and wiling to take advantage of positive risk reward situations.

Winning One Pocket games requires pocketing balls and that is OFFENSE.
Defense is only a prelude to offense.

Tom
 

El Chapo

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i would be thinking about the 3rd ball in my pattern on this shot. it looks like it would be the 1 with a slight angle to bump the 13 after i have made the 8 and 10 :heh
 

unoperro

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Geez I guess you guys have been watching todays gun slinging 1 holers ? A couple of years ago I dont think you would find anyone here thinning the 8.

Just a observation:sorry

This is another wwyd that if you were at table you may decide thinning the 8 isnt a cake walk.

I looked at the pics and I really cant tell the line of 8 in relation to whitey.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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A lot of players have recommended shooting the cut shot on the eight ball with varying speeds as to where the cueball will come to rest. I don't see any reason to shoot at the eight. The balls favor me at this point. To those who like to move, take a look and the two rail bank on the three ball. Not to make it but to get it to my side by the seven ball or a little lower. Stick the cueball on the rail and let him shoot the long straight in stripe on his side. When you leave that cueball on the rail you have accomplished quite a lot as you can only push the cueball and miss-hits can and do occur on his return shot.
Jerry, a very fine choice. I was playing the 3 two rails to make it or get it in front of the pocket, using high reverse to get the cb back to the head rail. But, this leaves an angle on the 12, which if made leaves him on the 10. Thanks for the input, I missed that logic! Whitey
 

jtompilot

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Geez I guess you guys have been watching todays gun slinging 1 holers ? A couple of years ago I dont think you would find anyone here thinning the 8.

Just a observation:sorry

This is another wwyd that if you were at table you may decide thinning the 8 isnt a cake walk.

I looked at the pics and I really cant tell the line of 8 in relation to whitey.
I’ve been shooting the 8 for at least 15-20 years, Ghost probably at least 30 years. It’s hardly a new gun slinging shot:)
 

jtompilot

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A lot of players have recommended shooting the cut shot on the eight ball with varying speeds as to where the cueball will come to rest. I don't see any reason to shoot at the eight. The balls favor me at this point. To those who like to move, take a look and the two rail bank on the three ball. Not to make it but to get it to my side by the seven ball or a little lower. Stick the cueball on the rail and let him shoot the long straight in stripe on his side. When you leave that cueball on the rail you have accomplished quite a lot as you can only push the cueball and miss-hits can and do occur on his return shot.
Unless the 3 caroms off the 7 and goes towards your hole I don’t think that shot is worth much. You might leave a cross bank on the 3 or 7. Only Mitch would shoot the stripe from the top rail:lol
 
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